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Gino_D

join:2009-09-01
Montreal, QC

Is there a Cdn organisation that represents Internet users?

Is there a Canadian organisation that represents the interests of the Canadian end user of Internet services?

My beef is the following
In Bell Canada - General tariff 6716 - Item 5440.4(d)(2)(a) - GAS-FTTN Access - Residence
ref.: www.bce.ca/aboutbce/regulatory/tariffs/bellcanada/
FTTN 7 - Up to 7 Mbps Downstream - Up to 1 Mbps upstream
FTTN 10 - Up to 10 Mbps Downstream - Up to 1 Mbps upstream
FTTN 15 - Up to 15 Mbps Downstream - Up to 1 Mbps upstream

For all of these service the upstream is up to 1 Mbps but I’m connect to a DSLAM that is a IKNS (LUCENT STINGERS) and if you read many of the commentary in this forum there is no way of getting more then 888 Kbps even if the DSLAM is situated in front of your house.

Could there be a class action set up to get Bell Canada and any other provider using an IKNS to fix it or replace it, to get the 1 Mbps upstream, because at the moment, it's not up to 1 Mbps upstream but up to 0.888 Mbps upstream for some users like me and 0.888 Mbps sync rate included ATM & PPPoE overhead.

Thank you.


yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4

Up to means any where between 0.001kbps to 1mbps unfortunately.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable

There is no organisation and worse still the CCTS won't touch it because they'll say that it lives up to the stated speed of up to 1 Mbps and the CRTC won't touch it because they'll say that they don't regulate the day to day operation of the ISPs. The Competition Bureau won't touch it because it lives up to what they say they can provide. The provincial cosumer watchdog won't touch it because it's telecomms and under the purview of the CRTC.

Even if there were a consumer organisation they won't get anywhere at all because the incumbents have shown that they don't give a **** about what the consumers think.

There used to be the RBUA (Residential Broadband Users Association), but after being told time after time by Bell and Rogers that they'd look into issues and then do ABSOLUTELY nothing, RBUA gave up and collapsed into the history books.


technocar2

join:2009-05-29
Brampton, ON
kudos:2
reply to yyzlhr

said by yyzlhr:

Up to means any where between 0.001kbps to 1mbps unfortunately.

Sure but the issue here is of some kind of technical limitation.

Basically, Gino_D, you have to prove that there is no possible way to get more than 0.888mbps under ideal testing lab conditions therefore bell has no right to advertise 1mbps.

If you can prove that then and only then you have a case against bell.


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac

said by technocar2:

said by yyzlhr:

Up to means any where between 0.001kbps to 1mbps unfortunately.

Sure but the issue here is of some kind of technical limitation.

Basically, Gino_D, you have to prove that there is no possible way to get more than 0.888mbps under ideal testing lab conditions therefore bell has no right to advertise 1mbps.

If you can prove that then and only then you have a case against bell.

But they don't advertise that they will, guaranteed, supply 1Mbps. They say "up to" and as yyzlhr stated, this could be any thing above 0mbps "up to" a max of 1mbps.


jmck
formerly 'shaded'

join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON
reply to Gino_D

can you get cable? Videotron now has 10M upload packages or more I think.


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to rednekcowboy

said by rednekcowboy:

But they don't advertise that they will, guaranteed, supply 1Mbps. They say "up to" and as yyzlhr stated, this could be any thing above 0mbps "up to" a max of 1mbps.

Actually, the range is not 0-1Mbps since Bell guarantees 680kbps as a minimum.

For Fibe15, Bell's fine print says:

1- Actual speeds will vary depending on the distance between the customer%u2019s modem and switching equipment from Bell: min. 10 Mbps and max. 15 Mbps down speeds; Min. 680 Kbps and max. 10 Mbps up speeds.

Also keep in mind that while IKNS is the most common type of ADSL2+/VDSL2 remotes on Bell's network, it is not the only type and some people do manage to get 1088-1152kbps upload sync.

technocar2

join:2009-05-29
Brampton, ON
kudos:2
reply to rednekcowboy

said by rednekcowboy:

said by technocar2:

said by yyzlhr:

Up to means any where between 0.001kbps to 1mbps unfortunately.

Sure but the issue here is of some kind of technical limitation.

Basically, Gino_D, you have to prove that there is no possible way to get more than 0.888mbps under ideal testing lab conditions therefore bell has no right to advertise 1mbps.

If you can prove that then and only then you have a case against bell.

But they don't advertise that they will, guaranteed, supply 1Mbps. They say "up to" and as yyzlhr stated, this could be any thing above 0mbps "up to" a max of 1mbps.

Yes, its not guaranteed but under certain ideal circumstances bell has to prove they can offer 1mbps (a network testing lab for example). But the burden of proof lies on the OP. OP has to somehow get the same equipment as bell test it out and see if there is any possible way to achieve more than 0.888mbps.

ISP can't just claim they can offer any speed; they have to be able to produce said speed under ideal lab conditions. If bell can't do that then its blunt false advertising.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by technocar2:

ISP can't just claim they can offer any speed; they have to be able to produce said speed under ideal lab conditions. If bell can't do that then its blunt false advertising.

Bell only guarantees 680kbps for ADSL2 and pretty much everyone gets at least that much at least sync-wise.

As for proving that people can get more than 1Mbps, just about everyone who has VDSL2 gets 6-10Mbps up which is well in excess of Bell's minimum guarantee.


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac
reply to technocar2

said by technocar2:

Yes, its not guaranteed but under certain ideal circumstances bell has to prove they can offer 1mbps (a network testing lab for example). But the burden of proof lies on the OP. OP has to somehow get the same equipment as bell test it out and see if there is any possible way to achieve more than 0.888mbps.

ISP can't just claim they can offer any speed; they have to be able to produce said speed under ideal lab conditions. If bell can't do that then its blunt false advertising.

No Bell doesn't have to prove that. They only have to prove that they can provide "up to" 1Mbps as that is what they are selling.

Nowhere does it say they will provide 1Mbps. Trust me, I've fought these "up to" clauses before with Rogers. You will get the same answer every time. "Up to" covers their ass.


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

said by rednekcowboy:

But they don't advertise that they will, guaranteed, supply 1Mbps. They say "up to" and as yyzlhr stated, this could be any thing above 0mbps "up to" a max of 1mbps.

Actually, the range is not 0-1Mbps since Bell guarantees 680kbps as a minimum.

For Fibe15, Bell's fine print says:

1- Actual speeds will vary depending on the distance between the customer%u2019s modem and switching equipment from Bell: min. 10 Mbps and max. 15 Mbps down speeds; Min. 680 Kbps and max. 10 Mbps up speeds.

Also keep in mind that while IKNS is the most common type of ADSL2+/VDSL2 remotes on Bell's network, it is not the only type and some people do manage to get 1088-1152kbps upload sync.

1. It doesn't matter what some people can sync at, that is irrelevant to this discussion. If they can sync over and above what is promised to them, good for them.

2. It's still "up to" regardless of the minimum they guarantee. The OP is over the 680kbps so this is irrelevant as well. We are talking about the max here and not the min, so this is further diluting the discussion.

No matter how you slice it. Bell does not, unless something has changed, guarantee anything but a maximum of "up to" 1Mbps.

You guys can argue this with me all day if you want but if you don't believe me, try fighting that clause and see how far you get.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to Gino_D

Imagine if the Canadian banks were allowed to do the following:

We'll loan you $0.01 but we'll charge you interest as though we loaned you $10,000.00
Change the $ signs to Mbps and you'll get the idea.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable

2 edits

More like ...

We'll sell you a chunk of cheese we'll call a "1 pound chunk of cheese" min weight 200 gm max weight 454 gm but in reality those 454 gm chunks are really rare. Whatever size you get we'll charge you a flat charge for.

Since "pound weight" is not a Weights and Measures unit they wouldn't care.


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

Internet access is like a box of chocolates....you never know what you're going to get.

Now that's a great line to use in an ad campaign targeting the incumbents.


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to rednekcowboy

said by rednekcowboy:

No matter how you slice it. Bell does not, unless something has changed, guarantee anything but a maximum of "up to" 1Mbps.

I quoted verbatim from Bell's site. There is no such thing as a "guarantee of up to 1Mbps," only a minimum guarantee of 680kbps.

The "up to 10Mbps" upload is not a guarantee and is always subject to technical limitations, distance, etc.

technocar2

join:2009-05-29
Brampton, ON
kudos:2
reply to Gino_D

I think you guys are missing the point.

The question is not whether bell can offer 1mbps, is more of if bell's equipment under the most ideal conditions can support 1mbps. If said equipment can't then its false advertisement.

No one here is arguing if an end user is getting 1mbps or not or bell's TOS, the argument is about bell's equipment. Hence "up to" does not come into question if bell's equipment cannot support 1mbps.


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

said by technocar2:

No one here is arguing if an end user is getting 1mbps or not or bell's TOS, the argument is about bell's equipment. Hence "up to" does not come into question if bell's equipment cannot support 1mbps.

It can ... in a lab.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to technocar2

Bell's Terms make the following general statement ..

"12. Performance Levels.
To the extent permitted by applicable law, Your Service Provider
does not guarantee or warrant the performance of the Service. "

It makes no distinction between degraded performance due to internet vagueries and equipment behaviour.

Now, of course, you'd like to test that first part "To the extent permitted by applicable law ..."

And for that you need to go speak with a lawyer.

Given that there are a lot of lawyers out there who use the internet, I would think this is a matter they would have chased with Bell already!



rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac
reply to technocar2

said by technocar2:

I think you guys are missing the point.

The question is not whether bell can offer 1mbps, is more of if bell's equipment under the most ideal conditions can support 1mbps.

But "up to" is what they are selling. They have never claimed that their equipment can handle 1mbps, they have never claimed that they will deliver 1mbps.

They have claimed "up to" 1mbps and the fact of the matter is that people get over that, as someone has illustrated in this very thread.

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter if their equipment can or doesn't handle 1 mbps because they have never stated anywhere that they deliver 1 mbps, only "up to" that amount.

That "up to" phrase covers everything you are discussing....I'm not going to argue about it any more. You obviously feel you are correct, so go ahead and fight it. Please report back on the results...

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by rednekcowboy:

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter if their equipment can or doesn't handle 1 mbps because they have never stated anywhere that they deliver 1 mbps, only "up to" that amount.

Where on Bell's site do they claim "up to 1Mbps" anyway? Now that they have eliminated all active marketing of ADSL2 tiers in favor of VDSL2 wherever available, all small print I have found now refers to "Up to 10Mbps upload."


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac

said by InvalidError:

said by rednekcowboy:

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter if their equipment can or doesn't handle 1 mbps because they have never stated anywhere that they deliver 1 mbps, only "up to" that amount.

Where on Bell's site do they claim "up to 1Mbps" anyway? Now that they have eliminated all active marketing of ADSL2 tiers in favor of VDSL2 wherever available, all small print I have found now refers to "Up to 10Mbps upload."

I have no idea, I'm posting replying to the OP and others talking about up to 1Mbps.

Doesn't matter if we are talking 1 or 10, it's the "up to" phrase we are discussing.


cable4me

@teksavvy.com
reply to Gino_D

If you associate "up to" with its actual meaning of "no more than" which is what they are advertising, then you'll have a lot less disappointments.

It is like lottery commercials that say you *could* win "up to" 10 millions dollars? Do you actually expect a paid out like that? Similar logic works here.


lowping

join:2013-08-04
reply to Gino_D

IKNS can go up to 10Mbps upload.


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

said by rednekcowboy:

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter if their equipment can or doesn't handle 1 mbps because they have never stated anywhere that they deliver 1 mbps, only "up to" that amount.

Where on Bell's site do they claim "up to 1Mbps" anyway? Now that they have eliminated all active marketing of ADSL2 tiers in favor of VDSL2 wherever available, all small print I have found now refers to "Up to 10Mbps upload."

I wonder if a judge would accept that if only 1% of Bell's customers got even 9Mbps, and 3% got 8Mbps?

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by MaynardKrebs:

I wonder if a judge would accept that if only 1% of Bell's customers got even 9Mbps, and 3% got 8Mbps?

What is the upload speed guarantee on VDSL2 25/10? 3Mbps.

I'm pretty sure 100% of people who are on VDSL2 get at least 4Mbps. As long as the guaranteed (minimum) speed is met, I doubt there are many courts on the planet that would take the case.

If I sell you chunks of cheese and define 'chunks' as being between 300g and 1000g, you may get pissed off about getting only ~305g chunks nearly all of the time but as long as you don't get any weighing less than 200g minus the allowed error margins from W&M, your chances of suing me and winning (assuming a judge even takes the case) are slim to none. You might have better chances suing me for running an illegal gambling operation where odds are grossly skewed in my favor.

Can't do that with broadband though (sue for gambling) since maximum attainable rates on xDSL are bound by physics and technology which makes it pretty easy to prove that things are beyond the incumbent's direct control.

donkey

join:2008-04-08
Montreal, QC
Reviews:
·Acanac
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to lowping

said by lowping:

IKNS can go up to 10Mbps upload.

perhaps in VDSL2 mode, but for someone like me on adsl2+, I get .806 upload.
--
WestLink Cable is a SCAM


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac
reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by InvalidError:

said by rednekcowboy:

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter if their equipment can or doesn't handle 1 mbps because they have never stated anywhere that they deliver 1 mbps, only "up to" that amount.

Where on Bell's site do they claim "up to 1Mbps" anyway? Now that they have eliminated all active marketing of ADSL2 tiers in favor of VDSL2 wherever available, all small print I have found now refers to "Up to 10Mbps upload."

I wonder if a judge would accept that if only 1% of Bell's customers got even 9Mbps, and 3% got 8Mbps?

Yes he would because it doesn't matter what they get because of the "up to" clause.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

said by rednekcowboy:

Yes he would because it doesn't matter what they get because of the "up to" clause.

Time to take a bunch of judges out behind the wood shed.

graniterock

join:2003-03-14
London, ON
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to Gino_D

It's more of a public policy group but openmedia.ca would be the closest. Although I doubt they'd be interested in a class action suit. Asking why providers don't advertise actual speeds and lobbing for rule changes in this regard could be up their ally.


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by graniterock:

Asking why providers don't advertise actual speeds and lobbing for rule changes in this regard could be up their ally.

We already know 'why' in xDSL's case and I am reasonably confident physics and technical limitations are beyond the judges' power to fix.