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to lowping
Re: Unions rally against Verizon in downtown Torontosaid by lowping:said by rednekcowboy:said by lowping:I'm just asking for statements with evidence backing up what you say is true. I haven't found anything.
As for being scared, these are my concerns:
Is verizon really thinking about us consumers or is this just for deeping their pockets strategies ?
Are they going to keep the company ther'ye buying in operation and follow that mind set or they're just going to close them and stamp the verison sign on it ?
If verizon does succeed, will they grow even bigger in canada and start creating another monopoly situation and recreate the same problem we are facing now?
How will this impact canadian jobs in the telecom sector, are they going to bring some new opportunity to canada ?
If you can't find it, you either don't really want the information or don't care to know. As for the rest of what you said: Verizon is a business first and foremost. I am sure they'll hang their own sign and do what's best for them as a business. This differs from the current situation how????? This is irrelevant and it's only purpose is fear mongering. They can't create a monopoly as there is already a monopoly with Robellus. Bell is famous for farming out Canadian jobs overseas. Should we boot them out of the country? Verizon coming in will be good for the consumer and bad for the big 3. It will foster true competition instead of collusion. Just point me out to one the these topics on this forum. I'm not asking for much. To me, I don't see anything changing with verizon entry. If times proves me wrong, then I'll be happy with that. There are 2 other threads right on this forum regarding this same topic, read them. I know for a fact one post goes into great detail about the history of wireless spectrum in this country. Use google. The information you are after is easily obtainable. If nothing changes with a Verizon entry, then there is absolutely no harm in them entering, is there? The fact of the matter is that the big 3 feel so threatened by Verizon that they have gone into full-out attack mode. This would suggest that Verizon does, in fact, plan to make some changes and shake things up. This would create competition and it is clear there will be no collusion between the current incumbents and Verizon as the incumbents have drawn a very clear line in the sand now. This only means a win for you and me, the consumer. Bottom line, anything that gets the current incumbents in Canada this nervous can only mean good for the end user and I welcome it with open arms. |
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said by rednekcowboy:There are 2 other threads right on this forum regarding this same topic, read them. I know for a fact one post goes into great detail about the history of wireless spectrum in this country. Use google. The information you are after is easily obtainable.
If nothing changes with a Verizon entry, then there is absolutely no harm in them entering, is there? The fact of the matter is that the big 3 feel so threatened by Verizon that they have gone into full-out attack mode. This would suggest that Verizon does, in fact, plan to make some changes and shake things up. This would create competition and it is clear there will be no collusion between the current incumbents and Verizon as the incumbents have drawn a very clear line in the sand now.
This only means a win for you and me, the consumer. Bottom line, anything that gets the current incumbents in Canada this nervous can only mean good for the end user and I welcome it with open arms.
I could potentially see bad things happening and/or good things. But I much rather prefer WIND and Mobilicity succeeding in what they started. |
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to rednekcowboy
Even if nothing get changed, Verizon will have to spend some money in getting things set up in Canada. e.g. store front, offices, advertizing, building/renting towers, installing equipments, sales people, taxes etc.
As for Canadian jobs, our government *could* require all telcom companies to have certain minimum percentage of Canadian workers before they are allowed to bid on Spectrum.
If the percentage is high enough, we might even see some of the old Bell job coming back from India. |
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said by cable4me :Even if nothing get changed, Verizon will have to spend some money in getting things set up in Canada. e.g. store front, offices, advertizing, building/renting towers, installing equipments, sales people, taxes etc.
As for Canadian jobs, our government *could* require all telcom companies to have certain minimum percentage of Canadian workers before they are allowed to bid on Spectrum.
If the percentage is high enough, we might even see some of the old Bell job coming back from India.
This is what I would like, fixing the problem we have now. Not just adding a new big entrant and roll the dice. |
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to lowping
said by lowping:Is verizon really thinking about us consumers or is this just for deeping their pockets strategies ?
That is funny. All of these fake rallies & fear mongering. You must think the Canadian Cartel is doing it out of concern for consumers. said by lowping:How will this impact canadian jobs in the telecom sector, are they going to bring some new opportunity to canada ?
Even assuming what you say is true, I don't view my role as a consumer to be treated with contempt by the Cartel, so jobs can be maintained (or offshored). said by lowping:If verizon does succeed, will they grow even bigger in canada and start creating another monopoly situation and recreate the same problem we are facing now? We will have the Cartel & Verizon. Two competitors are always better than one. And if Verizon starts out with only 10% of the market, and manages to become a dominant player (in spite of an entrenched Cartel), then it is clearly offering something the consumer wants. The Cartel has zero good will because of decades of abusive consumer behavior. It is not going to get our support & sympathies. It has no one but itself to blame. Any government that stands on its side will be negatively remembered in the next election. |
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said by Dreyfus:said by lowping:Is verizon really thinking about us consumers or is this just for deeping their pockets strategies ?
That is funny. All of these fake rallies & fear mongering. You must think the Canadian Cartel is doing it out of concern for consumers. said by lowping:How will this impact canadian jobs in the telecom sector, are they going to bring some new opportunity to canada ?
Even assuming what you say is true, I don't view my role as a consumer to be treated with contempt by the Cartel, so jobs can be maintained (or offshored). said by lowping:If verizon does succeed, will they grow even bigger in canada and start creating another monopoly situation and recreate the same problem we are facing now? We will have the Cartel & Verizon. Two competitors are always better than one. And if Verizon starts out with only 10% of the market, and manages to become a dominant player (in spite of an entrenched Cartel), then it is clearly offering something the consumer wants. The Cartel has zero good will because of decades of abusive consumer behavior. It is not going to get our support & sympathies. It has no one but itself to blame. Any government that stands on its side will be negatively remembered in the next election. I already imagine Verizon being part of the cartel in a few years, they'll feel right at home. |
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to lowping
said by lowping:This is what I would like, fixing the problem we have now. Not just adding a new big entrant and roll the dice.
We have tried that, it has gotten consumers nowhere. The Cartel has hijacked the regulatory bodies by rotating their executives into them. For every one consumer advocate there are 20 industry representatives. Meanwhile it just gets bigger and bigger (and more entrenched). The only way to stop this is to bring in something disruptive. Only by threatening to decimate and destroy the Cartel will any real change occur. |
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Dreyfus
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to lowping
Removed - said the same thing twice. |
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 TypeS
join:2012-12-17
London, ON |
to rednekcowboy
Well again, I would say they are not worried. They simply do want to give up any market share, even if it were miniscule. Which is what I predict Verizon would scoop up. The AWS band hasn't been well greeted by manufacturers, the majority of flagship phones don't support it and they make a 2nd version that often leaves out LTE functionality. Just look at what happened to T-Mobile in the U.S., they're on the brink of failure right now.
But let's say Verizon does come in. They'd have to surpass what Wind has already done. Despite the better pricing Wind already offers, they have yet to dent Robellus' grip on the Canadian market.
But say they do gain the traction that Wind, Mobilicity and others haven't been able to get, given Verizon's track record, it would only be a matter time before it becomes a bait & switch when they turn the Big 3 into the Big 4. |
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Belluser99 to lowping
Anon
2013-Sep-1 5:21 pm
to lowping
I forgot... Canadian telecoms never outsource their jobs to other countries like India and Philippines. You must be a member of these unions. |
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to TypeS
said by TypeS:Well again, I would say they are not worried.
I'd have to completely and utterly disagree! If they weren't worried, they wouldn't be vehemently attacking Verizon any way they can. |
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TypeS
join:2012-12-17
London, ON |
TypeS
Member
2013-Sep-1 6:07 pm
It's called marketing. |
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said by TypeS:It's called marketing.
No, it's called desperation and fear...... Out and out political-style campaign ads is not marketing..... |
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TypeS
join:2012-12-17
London, ON |
TypeS
Member
2013-Sep-1 6:16 pm
If you want to believe so. |
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to Belluser99
said by Belluser99 :I forgot... Canadian telecoms never outsource their jobs to other countries like India and Philippines. You must be a member of these unions.
Which I don't agree, union or no union this would of happen. Even then, my union went public about it... but the government doesn't give a crap. You should really criticize the government for letting it happen in the first place. |
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said by lowping:said by Belluser99 :I forgot... Canadian telecoms never outsource their jobs to other countries like India and Philippines. You must be a member of these unions.
Which I don't agree, union or no union this would of happen. Even then, my union went public about it... but the government doesn't give a crap. You should really criticize the government for letting it happen in the first place. LMAO, this is the biggest load of horse manure I've read all day. It's not Bell or the union's fault that Bell outsourced jobs, it's the governments...... And for the love of all that is good and holy---it's would HAVE not would OF. |
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said by rednekcowboy:said by lowping:said by Belluser99 :I forgot... Canadian telecoms never outsource their jobs to other countries like India and Philippines. You must be a member of these unions.
Which I don't agree, union or no union this would of happen. Even then, my union went public about it... but the government doesn't give a crap. You should really criticize the government for letting it happen in the first place. LMAO, this is the biggest load of horse manure I've read all day. It's not Bell or the union's fault that Bell outsourced jobs, it's the governments...... And for the love of all that is good and holy---it's would HAVE not would OF. Eat the horse manure all you want, it's the truth. Government isn't doing shit about it. And please correct some more on my poor english writing. |
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markf
join:2008-01-24
Scarborough, ON |
to elitefx
In the short term, Verizon will probably be more aggressive to get up to the market share they want, then they'll start laying off on the promotions and settle in to Robellus pricing.
Verizon is in it for profit, nothing more, nothing less, just like every other business out there. Some choose low prices to drive volume (Wind), while others have higher prices but advertise other features (quality, range, etc.) to maximize profits.
There is nothing wrong with this, but those who think Verizon is potentially coming to benefit consumers are dead wrong.
If you're a Robellus executive, having to split the pie with someone else is the issue, not that they are going to lower margins in the longer term. Verizon maintains their US margins, cuts services, etc, you think they're all of a sudden going to be generous to Canadians?
I'm cheering for Wind and hope that more people jump to them. |
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TypeS
join:2012-12-17
London, ON |
TypeS
Member
2013-Sep-1 10:29 pm
said by markf:There is nothing wrong with this, but those who think Verizon is potentially coming to benefit consumers are dead wrong.
That is pretty much it. Verizon will only be competitive in the short term to settle in and once they're comfortable, the honeymoon phase will end. Verizon doesn't run its business for it's customers south of the border, they won't here either. |
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to markf
said by markf:There is nothing wrong with this, but those who think Verizon is potentially coming to benefit consumers are dead wrong.
If you're a Robellus executive, having to split the pie with someone else is the issue, not that they are going to lower margins in the longer term. Verizon maintains their US margins, cuts services, etc, you think they're all of a sudden going to be generous to Canadians?
Why do you people insist on jumping from one extreme to the other? No one has said or is foolish enough to think that Verizon is for the consumer. There is a difference between thinking that Verizon coming into the Canadian market is a good thing and thinking they are going to be "pro-consumer." You guys always want to jump to the extreme and all of a sudden because people think that Verizon will be good for the Canadian consumer that we believe Verizon will be some sort of pro-consumer organization. This is not the case in the least. They are going to come in and lowball Robellus, might not be by much, but that's what they'll do. In turn Robellus will be forced, in order to keep it's market share, lower it's prices as well. It could end up in a much-needed price war. Verizon has the pockets to sustain this until such a time they have a decent foot-hold into the Canadian market place. At that time, things might return to the status quo, but that status quo could be very different from the one we are sitting at today when it's all said and done. Bottom line, more competition is always a good thing for the consumer. said by lowping:Eat the horse manure all you want, it's the truth. Government isn't doing shit about it.
Saying it's up to the government to step in and saying it's their fault that Bell outsourced jobs is complete hogwash. Bell outsourcing jobs to Manilla and other countries is a Bell decision that has nothing to do with the Canadian government. If anything the responsibility lies as much with your union as it does with Bell for allowing this to happen. I don't have much use for unions now-a-days. They used to be good and stood up for employee rights and ensured that the employee was protected. Now they stand for greed, stifle growth and are typically corrupted. They tend to be short-sited and don't very often see the big picture. They protect people that would rather not work for their pay and often chastise people for going over-and-above in their positions. Unions are more often than not a big part of the problem rather than the solution to one. Perfect example of this. There is a lumber company in my hometown that employed a few hundred to 1000+ employees. They got in a disagreement with the union and rather than the union making concessions to save jobs, they got greedy. Guess what happened? EVERYONE lost their jobs and the company closed it's doors. This not only affected the people that worked there but also the truckers that hauled the lumber and the trees used to make the lumber, and the wood chips produced there as well. We are talking thousands of lives affected because the union got too greedy vs looking at the big picture. This is not the first time something like this has happened. |
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 TwiztedZeroNine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium Member
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON |
Oh noes unemployed trees. I haz another sad.  |
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lol, fixed it |
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| rednekcowboy |
to cable4me
said by cable4me :If the percentage is high enough, we might even see some of the old Bell job coming back from India.
FWIW, not all Bell call center jobs were farmed out to India. Sure they have a couple over-seas, however they have their own with Bell-direct employees still in Canada and have a good number of outsourced but still in Canada call centers run by Canadian companies. |
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to rednekcowboy
said by rednekcowboy:said by markf:There is nothing wrong with this, but those who think Verizon is potentially coming to benefit consumers are dead wrong.
If you're a Robellus executive, having to split the pie with someone else is the issue, not that they are going to lower margins in the longer term. Verizon maintains their US margins, cuts services, etc, you think they're all of a sudden going to be generous to Canadians?
Why do you people insist on jumping from one extreme to the other? No one has said or is foolish enough to think that Verizon is for the consumer. There is a difference between thinking that Verizon coming into the Canadian market is a good thing and thinking they are going to be "pro-consumer." You guys always want to jump to the extreme and all of a sudden because people think that Verizon will be good for the Canadian consumer that we believe Verizon will be some sort of pro-consumer organization. This is not the case in the least. They are going to come in and lowball Robellus, might not be by much, but that's what they'll do. In turn Robellus will be forced, in order to keep it's market share, lower it's prices as well. It could end up in a much-needed price war. Verizon has the pockets to sustain this until such a time they have a decent foot-hold into the Canadian market place. At that time, things might return to the status quo, but that status quo could be very different from the one we are sitting at today when it's all said and done. Bottom line, more competition is always a good thing for the consumer. said by lowping:Eat the horse manure all you want, it's the truth. Government isn't doing shit about it.
Saying it's up to the government to step in and saying it's their fault that Bell outsourced jobs is complete hogwash. Bell outsourcing jobs to Manilla and other countries is a Bell decision that has nothing to do with the Canadian government. If anything the responsibility lies as much with your union as it does with Bell for allowing this to happen. I don't have much use for unions now-a-days. They used to be good and stood up for employee rights and ensured that the employee was protected. Now they stand for greed, stifle growth and are typically corrupted. They tend to be short-sited and don't very often see the big picture. They protect people that would rather not work for their pay and often chastise people for going over-and-above in their positions. Unions are more often than not a big part of the problem rather than the solution to one. Perfect example of this. There is a lumber company in my hometown that employed a few hundred to 1000+ employees. They got in a disagreement with the union and rather than the union making concessions to save jobs, they got greedy. Guess what happened? EVERYONE lost their jobs and the company closed it's doors. This not only affected the people that worked there but also the truckers that hauled the lumber and the trees used to make the lumber, and the wood chips produced there as well. We are talking thousands of lives affected because the union got too greedy vs looking at the big picture. This is not the first time something like this has happened. I'm not only blaming outsourcing on the government, OMG! But government has one of the most critical role in this decision/situation and they simply don't care. |
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said by lowping:said by rednekcowboy:said by markf:There is nothing wrong with this, but those who think Verizon is potentially coming to benefit consumers are dead wrong.
If you're a Robellus executive, having to split the pie with someone else is the issue, not that they are going to lower margins in the longer term. Verizon maintains their US margins, cuts services, etc, you think they're all of a sudden going to be generous to Canadians?
Why do you people insist on jumping from one extreme to the other? No one has said or is foolish enough to think that Verizon is for the consumer. There is a difference between thinking that Verizon coming into the Canadian market is a good thing and thinking they are going to be "pro-consumer." You guys always want to jump to the extreme and all of a sudden because people think that Verizon will be good for the Canadian consumer that we believe Verizon will be some sort of pro-consumer organization. This is not the case in the least. They are going to come in and lowball Robellus, might not be by much, but that's what they'll do. In turn Robellus will be forced, in order to keep it's market share, lower it's prices as well. It could end up in a much-needed price war. Verizon has the pockets to sustain this until such a time they have a decent foot-hold into the Canadian market place. At that time, things might return to the status quo, but that status quo could be very different from the one we are sitting at today when it's all said and done. Bottom line, more competition is always a good thing for the consumer. said by lowping:Eat the horse manure all you want, it's the truth. Government isn't doing shit about it.
Saying it's up to the government to step in and saying it's their fault that Bell outsourced jobs is complete hogwash. Bell outsourcing jobs to Manilla and other countries is a Bell decision that has nothing to do with the Canadian government. If anything the responsibility lies as much with your union as it does with Bell for allowing this to happen. I don't have much use for unions now-a-days. They used to be good and stood up for employee rights and ensured that the employee was protected. Now they stand for greed, stifle growth and are typically corrupted. They tend to be short-sited and don't very often see the big picture. They protect people that would rather not work for their pay and often chastise people for going over-and-above in their positions. Unions are more often than not a big part of the problem rather than the solution to one. Perfect example of this. There is a lumber company in my hometown that employed a few hundred to 1000+ employees. They got in a disagreement with the union and rather than the union making concessions to save jobs, they got greedy. Guess what happened? EVERYONE lost their jobs and the company closed it's doors. This not only affected the people that worked there but also the truckers that hauled the lumber and the trees used to make the lumber, and the wood chips produced there as well. We are talking thousands of lives affected because the union got too greedy vs looking at the big picture. This is not the first time something like this has happened. I'm not only blaming outsourcing on the government, OMG! But government has one of the most critical role in this decision/situation and they simply don't care. Certainly sounds like you are.... Governments hold absolutely no roles in the decision process as to where a company chooses to operate, contract or outsource to. It's not that they don't care, it's just that it's, quite simply, none of their business/not their place to intervene. You can't have government dictating business decisions in the private sector. They have a hard enough time running their own ship let alone someone else's. Perhaps you should explain yourself better instead of providing one line answers that allude to what you mean versus spelling it out.... |
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TwiztedZeroNine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium Member
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON |
to lowping
Oh they care, as long as they're getting kickbacks to line their war chests with. They just won't admit so publicly. Their bottom line matters more than the lives of ordinary humans since Corporations are much longer lived and greed is the lifeblood. |
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to rednekcowboy
said by rednekcowboy:Certainly sounds like you are....
Governments hold absolutely no roles in the decision process as to where a company chooses to operate, contract or outsource to. It's not that they don't care, it's just that it's, quite simply, none of their business/not their place to intervene. You can't have government dictating business decisions in the private sector. They have a hard enough time running their own ship let alone someone else's.
Perhaps you should explain yourself better instead of providing one line answers that allude to what you mean versus spelling it out....
That's bullshit! Government could easily penalize or simply put some law to stop any outsourcing. Outsourcing is bad for the economie, that's the bottom line. Perhaps you shouldn't assume what you think I'm saying. |
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said by lowping:That's bullshit! Government could easily penalize or simply put some law to stop any outsourcing. Outsourcing is bad for the economie, that's the bottom line.
Perhaps you shouldn't assume what you think I'm saying.
It's not the government's place to intervene in a business decision on how they operate. You need to educate yourself. Governments can't "penalize" a company for doing what they feel is best for their bottom line or shareholders. They also can't "simply put some law." Do you even know what it takes to put a new law into place? You want to talk about the economy....imagine a system in place where the government dictates the way businesses operate. Companies would leave Canada in droves and we would be in financial ruin as a country. |
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said by rednekcowboy:said by lowping:That's bullshit! Government could easily penalize or simply put some law to stop any outsourcing. Outsourcing is bad for the economie, that's the bottom line.
Perhaps you shouldn't assume what you think I'm saying.
It's not the government's place to intervene in a business decision on how they operate. You need to educate yourself. Governments can't "penalize" a company for doing what they feel is best for their bottom line or shareholders. They also can't "simply put some law." Do you even know what it takes to put a new law into place? You want to talk about the economy....imagine a system in place where the government dictates the way businesses operate. Companies would leave Canada in droves and we would be in financial ruin as a country. I don't care what you say, this should be done. Government easily "dictates" minimum wages though. |
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said by lowping:said by rednekcowboy:said by lowping:That's bullshit! Government could easily penalize or simply put some law to stop any outsourcing. Outsourcing is bad for the economie, that's the bottom line.
Perhaps you shouldn't assume what you think I'm saying.
It's not the government's place to intervene in a business decision on how they operate. You need to educate yourself. Governments can't "penalize" a company for doing what they feel is best for their bottom line or shareholders. They also can't "simply put some law." Do you even know what it takes to put a new law into place? You want to talk about the economy....imagine a system in place where the government dictates the way businesses operate. Companies would leave Canada in droves and we would be in financial ruin as a country. I don't care what you say, this should be done. Government easily "dictates" minimum wages though. Why should it be done? How should it be done? What benefit would you see from it? I've already explained the consequences of such actions.... As far as minimum wage--have you ever worked for a telecom company? How many people there make minimum wage? I know they make above minimum in the call centers. I know line workers and field techs are well above it. |
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