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Mech1017

@verizon.net

1 edit

[Business] New topic on FIOS bandwidth capabilities

I'm not looking for an argument nor am I defending the actions taken against you. I was simply trying to sort out a possible reason for their actions. If I came off in an offending manner I apologize. But I can assure you that different wavelength or not, video service can be degraded by excessive data service use, especially in the original bata areas of the Fios service. On that note it is obvious that Verizon's choice of action has left you unable for discussion to any words other then "Verizon is wrong". Again I hope the best for you in your fight and apologize if I came off as defending Verizon. I misunderstood the use of a forum or discussion thread.

McBane

join:2008-08-22
Plano, TX

[Business] Re: New topic on FIOS bandwidth capabilities

Are you referring to VOD or Netflix streaming TV or the fios cable TV service when you say excessive usage can degrade TV service?

Sure excessive usage will strangle any internet streaming TV (Netflix, Youtube, FioS VOD, etc). If you are referring to regular FiOS TV that is in fact on different DWDM band please explain in detail as how this can happen. As a neteng I would love to hear your answer for this. The only way I can see this happening is if you are using MoCA for your internet and your coax/splitters are crappy and causing cross-talk interference.


Mech1017

@verizon.net

1 edit
Sorry for the delay. I started to post but the data I have turned it into a very lengthy reply. The router is MOCA capable but I'm not sure if it is set to use that feature. The Web interface for the Actiontec router isn't a very easy interface to find some settings. I did enable all logging and monitoring on the router which by default is disabled. I have quite a few data logs from the router from when the live TV was unacceptable. There was pixelating, image studdering and audio video sync issues. The only problem is some of the activity monitoring is blocked. At times the set top boxes will be communicating with the router but then the STB goes into permiscous mode and it's activities are no longer monitored. I have noticed large amounts of data going through the router. 1.3Tb in a 2 hour period. And that's with no data devices using the connection. The connection is secure so no WiFi is being stolen. The Coax is bridged with the WAP and Ethernet connections internally in the router. All three connect to the WAN using the Broadband Ethernet connection again set internally on the router. What's strange is both STBs. I have lost their data connection when I disabled the WAP. I was trying to eliminate a wireless breach as a possibility. The Ethernet connection maintained an Internet connection. I'm not sure why a device connected to the router by Coax would drop connectivity if it was still enabled and in the connection bridge with the Ethernet connection.
Also I'm guessing that there is more of a cross connection between the STBs and the router then just VOD, the guide, etc. In fact my Motorola HD DVR will only function as a live TV box if the data connection is down. No DVR access to recordings. Also if the box resets while the data connection is down the box becomes a paper weight. The set top boxes use widgets for their menu system. I assume. These widgets are not stored in the boxes themselves and must be loaded each time the box restarts. Verizon techs had no idea why losing the data connection while the STB is running would cause the DVR features to be unavailable. Even simple playback won't work. You can watch live TV but if you hit the DVR button on the remote an error message appears stating the widget is unavailable and to check data connectivity. Unfortunately I have no base data because as usual you don't go looking until there's a problem. I will condense the data logs and post at a later time.
I also know others in my area have experienced the same live TV issues that I have but I have no information on the data going through there routers. I do know they have similar equipment setups as I do. I have been on Fios since it's beta in my area. It was only Internet and phone the first 2 tears and the connection was a whopping 10Mbs. A nice change from the ups and downs of Verizon's 5Mbs DSL that I had for about 5-6 years before Fios was being tested in my area. More info to follow.
Sincerly
John Cannon

"There's nothing worse then trying to establish a fiber network between several building on a property when different contractors and architects failed to communicate. Resulting in multi mode and/or single mode fiber and equipment being used in the different buildings. And no money left to straighten out the nightmare after the fact. Of course the spaghetti in the utility rooms and the perplexed look on everyone's face during the final walk through after construction was finished was priceless." :O :'(

bluedyedvd

join:2007-04-15
Overland Park, KS
reply to Mech1017

[Business] Re: New topic on FIOS bandwidth capabilities

It sounds like the op. has brought VZ. unwanted attention and VZ. is just wanting to make a example of him. I am not sure but from reading the thread the op. has only talked to this one rep. if it was me i would just stop talking to him and talk to someone higher up. The op. already admitted he was running servers and letting friends use his connection so just tell them you will stop that. When it comes right down to it verizon is a business so ask them if they want your money or not?


Smith6612
Premium,MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
kudos:25
reply to Mech1017

[Business] Re: New topic on FIOS bandwidth capabilities

Mech, 1.3TB through your router at a time in two hours almost sounds as if you've got a loop someplace, if it isn't a Denial of Service attack going on. I'd check over more parts of your wired network (UTP and Coaxial) at that point.

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Mech1017
As an FYI, that last statement is funny because you can't use MMF and SMF together reliably. This can be handled by transceivers, not an easy fix tho. They can work, but if they put in the wrong patch panels, so be it. Of course the connection is not going to be stable and if this is DWDM, even less likely. Typically though we are talking about CWDM or WDM in general.

Moving on to the issue at hand. The fibre part that comes into your house is on different frequencies 1550 for video (1300-1490) data for the interweb portion. So if there is an issue, it's "probably" when it hits the coax plant which is copper or could be a bad PON.

You could have pixellation from cross-talk or interference, or from a bad splice, or signal. I even remember back in the day people putting directv splitters and equipment in the mix, which is incompatible to Verizon MoCA. If you are a FiOS founding father, you probably have a BPON.

You should also put in a POI filter for Moca if it's not there, and put terminating resistors on unconnected coax. My install didn't have one, but since I run ethernet I didn't really care. My install uses clearcurve, or so the tech says. Seeing its in 1300-1500 most likely SMF, NDF with no water drop out, but a tech would have to verify that.

As to the 1.2 TB in 2 hours is about 170 MB/sec which means (if the counter is accurate) means bad hardware or a loop, both of which are not desirable and can cause issues you are describing.

Time for a truck roll.


Mech1017

@verizon.net

1 edit
Thanks for the info it was enlightening. Before I had the Fios service I was in a Direct TV/Verizon DSL bundle. From there I was in the Fios Internet beta at a killer 10Mbs. When TV became available I made the full switch to Fios. When the tech did the install he claimed all my Coax was fine. He also said my splitters were fine so the only Coax he installed was from the OINT to my first splitter. When I installed the Direct TV system I did buy the better shielded cable with the ground wire attached. I also had a signal splitter because I ended up with 2 of the Hughes DVR boxes with Tivo. I had modded the boxes to enable the USB so I could connect to them from my PC over WiFi creating a nice little media center. Any way back to the Coax I don't have any open leg that would require termination. As far as the connectors the Verizon tech did change a couple of them when he did the TV install but he ensured me all Coax why fine. In fact I was with him when he tested the Coax at the router and both the STB and the DVR. On to the data flow I haven't had much of a chance to dig into yet. Reading the logs when I saw the data flow what really surprised me was the fact that there was no lost packets or retransmits. Any thoughts on the data connection loss at my TV boxes when I disabled the WAP. The Coax connection was still in the bridge with the Ethernet connection and the Ethernet connection still had Internet. I am going to look into the other things you mentioned.

Thanks again.


Mech1017

@verizon.net

1 edit
reply to Smith6612
Thanks for the reply. I've enabled security logging and it does not appear to be an external or hostile problem. The log isn't showing any errors in the data stream and there was no packet loss or retransmissions. Of course this is all based on the logs provided by the router. The heavy data flow seems to involve the WAP and the Coax. I know with 100% certainty that there is no wireless breach in security. I have a NAS storage unit that allows me access from the Internet. But I have disabled remote connectivity and removed all port forwarding permissions in the router. I also have new stand alone all in one printer that has remote connectivity. It has the apps that run on the printer but if that's where the data is going HP will be getting a very nasty letter. I really don't understand the need to print my vacation pictures at my house while I'm still away. It's not like I'll delete them before I would verify they printed. So I disabled all remote connectivity except for the 2 TV boxes. And I've removed all port forwarding permissions except for the TV boxes. If the data usage stays the same it not going to be easy to figure it out. Could it be an anomaly or simply erroronous data reporting from the router. What I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around is: why if I disable the WAP within the router do I lose data connectivity to both my Fios TV boxes. The TV boxes are connected to the router with Coax. The Coax connection, the Ethernet connection, and the Wireless connection are bridged. When the WAP is disabled the Coax connection and Ethernet connection are still bridged and the Ethernet connection still has Internet connectivity. So what is going on inside the router that causes TV boxes that are Coax to drop their data connection when I disable the Wireless Access Point. Thanks again for any insight..

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
What rev of the Actiontec do you have and fw level? Click on system monitoring tab. You are using the term WAP which I am led to believe that is the encryption on the Wifi which can be WEP (nono) or WPA2/AES (Yes).

The Actiontec interface really sucks and there are many advanced settings in there that are not meant for typical consumer modification. In actuality it is a pretty powerful gateway.

I would begin by removing all ethernet ports from the MI424 and disable wifi. Then connect a laptop directly into one port. Then see if you are still seeing DVR/STB issues and check to see if you still have data flow issues. If yes, perform a full reset of the MI424, you probably mis-configured something. If not, add hardwire back (ethernet only) and see if the problem surfaces. If yes, reset, if no then re-add back WPA2/AES. If you see the issues, hard reset. If this persists after that, then 100% open a ticket.

If you open a ticket, they will want you to perform a hard reset anyways, so I would rather do it on my own terms.

You referenced DTV equipment. Has this been fully removed from your environment, including any splitters? Also, some people tend to run coax through a surge suppressor/power strip. DONT do that because usless you know the specs you could be clamping MoCA frequencies.

You also mentioned coax w/ ground line. Do not connect the ground wire for FIOS, that is typically only used in external ground connections from an outdoor source. Since FIOS is FTTP, there is no surge expectation unless the ONT is outside, other than through the 120V power. Grounding the splitter is sufficient. How would you ground from the STB? I wouldn't do that because that may interfere w/ the gound through the 120V.


Mech1017

@verizon.net

1 edit
Sorry if any confusion. WAP is the Wireless Access Point. The encryption is WPA2/AES. The only other changes I made to the original router settings is to enable full logging of both the firewall and the traffic monitoring systems. And I have set DHCP to assign static addresses for all connected devices. With 4 identical tablets and 2 identical phones and the everyone sharing the printer and NAS I figure the easiest way was to let the DHCP assign static addresses to everything and since it uses the MAC address of the devices there would be less room for error. And on the plus now non of the devices try using the Printer or NAS to connect to the Internet. All the devices started playing nicely together. I haven't had a chance to try everything you suggested yet. But the one big question remains. When I disable the WiFi ( Wireless Access Point) why do I lose data connectivity to my Fios TV boxes. The router has been reset to default quite a few times. The current firmware the router is using is 4.0.16.1.56.0.10.14.4 and I've recently had the router check for updates but I says the current one is installed. The router is MI424-WR hardware revision D. Just doing a quick look in just under 11 hours the router has received over 250TB. I will try what you mentioned when I get a chance. But the Video problem isn't constant.

All Direct TV equipment is gone. The ground system is limited to the incoming Coax and connected to and across the initial splitter to the copper water pipe. No grounds leave the basement. I live in a house that is over 100 years old. I have slowly been changing the electrical over from the old wire/tap system. Feedback is a very common problem. with these old wiring sit-ups. When I say feedback I'm talking motor noise and 2-5 Volts on the common. But with the new electric circuits I've been adding to replace the old the feedback is limited to only the original wiring which now consist of mostly the ceiling light fixtures and a few outlets that are hard to get new wire to. But no sensitive equipment is on them. So I tend to over ground all the incoming connections. My house is so old I still have much of the old gas lighting pipes in the walls and floors and the grounding is still attached to the incoming copper and no ground rod is installed (yet). My OINT is outside next to my electric meter which Verizon even ran a ground to the meter box to the OINT. I have changed over most of the outlets in the house to new wiring and separate circuits. There is one high-end surge protector in use that the Verizon tech verified was fine during the original install. There are 2 splitters in use is one installed by Verizon the other by me and the one I bought is designed for the higher frequencies and it's range covers what Verizon is using.

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
FIOS STB communicate over MoCA LAN (coax) so yes can disable wifi. Rev D is ancient. I looked at the openwrt and it looks like the ports use SPI, and they could be daisy chained.

»www.micrel.com/index.php ··· 5ma.html

Here is the datasheet for the chipset.

If perhaps you disable wifi maybe the router disables STP (there is still the Moca LAN) and a bad jack is flooding the box w/ packets. Without knowing the PCB layout I'm assuming the Moca chipset Entropic is bridged by a port in the main ASIC and if it is getting flooded the Moca port may be inaccessible. I have seen consumer routers flood the ASIC when the jacks begin to separate from the PCB, or alternatively one of your pieces of equipment is the cause.

I have rev F and that is almost 3 years old. I would call Verizon and tell them you modem has crapped out. You will get a new one. The older ones had many issues, not to mention that this is only 10/100. The newer rev I ones are gigabit.

If you have knob/tube then you can still have one grounding point, and the coax grounding block bonded w/ copper piping would be sufficient if you are having signal issues.

Once you clean up the router issues, can work on the video issues. That may require outside work. Looking at your AT model, you probably have a BPON.

As to surge protector, do you have coax filter through it? If so remove it from the chain and see if pixellation goes away. Your coax ingress is the ONT, so adding a filter will only attenuate the signal.


Mech1017

@verizon.net

1 edit

[Business] Re: V New topic on FIOS bandwidth capabilities

Once again thanks for your help. I recently had all the equipment in front of the router replaced. The power switching relay on the battery backup failed to reset after a brief power outage. When they realized how old my equipment was they replaced the OINT, transformer, battery backup controller. Everything except the battery. There are no filters on the Coax and the surge protector can easily be removed from the equation. One thing I was surprised to see in the router setup is that even know the router can handle 2 PPPoE connections only 1 is used. You would think enabling the Coax Broadband connection on the second PPPoE connection would allow the Coax connection to be removed from the bridge and given its own connection. But I'm sure if that was done the home media option might be a little harder to configure. Not that I've ever used it. But I'm sure Verizon might be making use of that second PPPoE connection with the additional services they've added like home security, home controls, Redbox to name a few.

But regardless if I understand your response the router should be replaced to eliminate it as the potential source of the problem. And your daisy theory would explain the loss of Coax data connectivity when I disabled the Wireless Access Point in the router settings.

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

[Business] Re: New topic on FIOS bandwidth capabilities

One last thing. While a POE filter is not necessary for FIOS, if your run from the ONT to the splitter is significant (say 50 feet), you will get better MoCA performance by putting the POE filter just before the root splitter. The POE filter reflects the MoCA signal and the topology is full mesh. I would wait to see if you still have Moca issues after the router. A filter is only $8 so it's a small investment.

That's funny they replaced everything except the battery. Verizon is funny that way....


Mech1017

@verizon.net
reply to bluedyedvd

[Business] Re: New topic on FIOS bandwidth capabilities

How did I miss that. I thought I read through the thread completely. But if he has admitted to running servers and connection sharing then it's no longer a debate who is wrong. Connection sharing I believe is considered theft of service. The running of servers I don't think becomes an issue until there is is financial gain or copyrighted material is involved. Unless of course your server is overwhelmingly popular and is using a ridiculous amount of bandwidth. I thought the was another op also involved in the Verizon excessive use letter that had video servers he used for sharing home video type stuff with his family. I thought he had also set up VPNs for his family for ease of access in the their videos and streaming the others. If what you say is the case then I'm not exactly what he is trying to achieve on the forum. Is he really trying to get pity and support from people that are playing by the rules and paying for the same service he is abusing and giving away. Thanks for the clarification I'll have to reread and see how I missed that.


Mech1017

@verizon.net

1 edit
reply to elefante72

[Business] Re: New topic on FIOS bandwidth capabilities

Yeah I was kinda miffed they didn't replace the battery after they left me hanging the day my service was scheduled for. My original service was for a Friday 8-12 time frame. At 8 I received a text confirming my time Window. Well the Window passed but I gave the tech the benefit of the doubt that maybe he was running late. When I finally called at 2 I was told that there was a schedule problem and should have been contacted in the morning to reschedule. Needless to say unfriendly words were exchanged not to mention that is was now going to be 4 days without any of the Fios services because of the poor setup of the battery backup system. And with a DVR that has an additional external hard drive my agitation was further pushed knowing that I couldn't even access the recorded material. The tech telling me that he hears my story all the time also didn't help.
Service integration is overdone on Fios. If the battery backup only supports the phone then install a secondary transformer and isolate it's electronics from the other services. I understand the install cost may be slightly higher but I'm sure I could come up with a better configuration. Coming up with the phone service that allowed customers to continue to use their same equipment might have added to their install cost. I'm sure it would have been defence and easier for them to give each house a single digital network type phone and a digital voice mail but may have been a deal breaker for some.
Maybe I wouldn't have been as frustrated if the time frame of my outage didn't coincide with with the sleepover of my 3 rambunctious nephews. So I trapped with my 2 daughter's 6 & 9 and my 3 nephews 5, 6, and 8. The only saving grace was having 4 tablets and the fact that they all like minecraft. So at least 4 of them could play together in the same world on minecraft. Between that and LEGOs I was able to keep my sanity while the weather kept them in.
But going back to your suggestion about the filter I will be getting one. My OINT is 60-75 feet away from the splitter. I still don't understand why they didn't just bring the new equipment into the basement where the battery backup is. I watched him install the new boxes and there was more then enough fiber coiled up in the back section of the OINT. That would have eliminated the double run of copper wires that run between the OINT and the transformer/UPS. So instead of using 120 feet of power cable they could have used 6 feet. It would also have shortened the initial network cable and Coax by about 60 feet. It would have also saved the tech the 15 minutes it took to loop the extra fiber into the back of the OINT box. Lucky I live close to one of the few larger computer parts retail stores left. So I have easy access to whatever I need. And no I won't be paying Verizon the $60 or $70 dollars if the battery fails. They are only $36 at the computer store. Thanks again for your help it's nice knowing people still take the time on forums like this to help others.
Expand your moderator at work


Mech1017

@verizon.net

1 edit
reply to elefante72

[Business] Re: New topic on FIOS bandwidth capabilities

I did finally reset the router. Something got corrupted and I was seeing 4 STBs, instead of just the 2 I have, listed in the port forwarding under the igmp multicast, and it started really going nuts. After the reset I did see that SIP was disabled in the settings. But even after the reset and disconnecting down to one Ethernet and just the Coax there are still times the video breaks up. When I check my connection in running full download at 58MBs and upload was only 38MBs. So now it's time to start bugging Verizon again. I may check all the Coax connections again to make sure they are tight. I may also invest in the filter you suggested before I call them. Thanks again for your help.