hey Anav, go play college hockey (where fighting isn't allowed) or play over in the KHL (where fighting is rare)...when you come back, let me know your opinion then.
And what lesson would Anav be learning in your suggestion? I don't get it.
you need to watch PJ Stock's comments from last night (intermission in Game 2) and Paul Maurice's comments from tonights panel (intermission Leafs/Flyers game)...heck, if you want to go back far enough, watch the first 5 games of the 72 Summit series.
PJ Stock brings up how everyone's a tough guy in college hockey because there isn't an enforcer to actually keep things under control...Maurice's comments came from his coaching in the KHL last season...he said you would have to see it, to really understand it, and it was terrifying. -- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
And what lesson would Anav be learning in your suggestion? I don't get it.
you need to watch PJ Stock's comments from last night (intermission in Game 2) and Paul Maurice's comments from tonights panel (intermission Leafs/Flyers game)...heck, if you want to go back far enough, watch the first 5 games of the 72 Summit series.
PJ Stock brings up how everyone's a tough guy in college hockey because there isn't an enforcer to actually keep things under control...Maurice's comments came from his coaching in the KHL last season...he said you would have to see it, to really understand it, and it was terrifying.
I heard both of those PJ Stock's and Paul Maurice's comments... As someone who played Junior C hockey and later rec & oldtimers I would rather contend with the fighting than the dirty stick work like slashing and spearing...
Besides if players where tossed out of a game for fighting what would stop a 3rd or 4th line player from picking a fight with Crosby or Ovechkin?
I'm no fan of fighting but I think it does serve a purpose and the game would be more violent without fighting...
The only thing that may ban fighting is the liability issues like the NFL has had to contend with...
I suspect many a players has suffered injuries and concussions from clean hits... Do we next ban hitting? I hope not...
Banning hitting from hockey would be like banning the knockout punch from pro boxing....
How about ejecting, fining, and suspending dirty players? How about calling a penalty for "intent to injure" and ejecting players for that which carries an automatic 2 game suspension. How about fining coaches and teams for continuing to employ dirty players? How about automatic ejection for fighting? All of these things would decrease the incidence of dirty play, just like every other major league sport played by supposed adults. -- I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.
All of these things would decrease the incidence of dirty play, just like every other major league sport played by supposed adults.
No, no - if we're getting rid of fighting, we're not allowed to make changes designed to get rid of other undesirable actions. We must leave all of the other rules exactly as they currently are.
It gets me how some people who readily accept the premise that increased threat of punishment can eliminate fighting, but outright reject the premise that the same thing would not work when applied to other penalties.
If Bernier keeps playing like that Reimer will be riding the bench most of the season.
FaxCap
why would Reimer be riding the bench??...he played great too...in fact, if the two could split the games and work together, it could work out very well for both of them...going into the playoffs with two confident, rested goalies would be lethal. -- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
How about ejecting, fining, and suspending dirty players? How about calling a penalty for "intent to injure" and ejecting players for that which carries an automatic 2 game suspension. How about fining coaches and teams for continuing to employ dirty players? How about automatic ejection for fighting? All of these things would decrease the incidence of dirty play, just like every other major league sport played by supposed adults.
why don't you just watch women's hockey?...no hitting and no fighting.
no one is forcing you to watch the game, and Parros' injury wasn't from dirty play or being punched out in fight...what about Lupul's concussion last year when he was cleanly hit (sandwiched)?...i would say that far more injuries happen in the game from either dirty play or simply "regular plays" than from fighting. -- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
How about ejecting, fining, and suspending dirty players? How about calling a penalty for "intent to injure" and ejecting players for that which carries an automatic 2 game suspension. How about fining coaches and teams for continuing to employ dirty players? How about automatic ejection for fighting? All of these things would decrease the incidence of dirty play, just like every other major league sport played by supposed adults.
All but the last two exist already for other infractions, and we've seen how well they've worked so far, haven't we? Add to how badly things work the complexity of deciding if a player is a weasel, an "energy guy" or a player who's just edgy after something that has happened.....it'll be impossibly complex to please anyone.
Teams continue to employ dirty players because ownership want them on the team (eg/ Matt Cooke just got *another* NHL contract), just like ownership keeps demanding 'get out of jail free' cards on each new CBA to save themselves from their own bad decision making.
For the record: I'm all for reducing dirty play in the league. I think the best way to reduce it would be to remove the instigator penalty rule as that would take away the bonus power play from the weasel's team if they are taken to task for his dirty play. I think the Kaletas / Otts / Ryan Whites of the league would think twice if they knew that they'd have to either answer more regularly for what they do (or be known as complete cowards for turtling game after game). It would also mean that a non-weasel/non-fighter wouldn't have to try to fight them for the dirty play they were just on the receiving end of. -- All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars - Peart / Lifeson / Lee Join Team Helix
For the record: I'm all for reducing dirty play in the league. I think the best way to reduce it would be to remove the instigator penalty rule as that would take away the bonus power play from the weasel's team if they are taken to task for his dirty play. I think the Kaletas / Otts / Ryan Whites of the league would think twice if they knew that they'd have to either answer more regularly for what they do (or be known as complete cowards for turtling game after game). It would also mean that a non-weasel/non-fighter wouldn't have to try to fight them for the dirty play they were just on the receiving end of.
agreed...and removing the instigator rule is something Don Cherry has been championing forever. -- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
here are some highlights from the non-NHL hockey leagues in Europe where fighting is pretty rare...basically, everyone is a tough guy because you can be...i don't think every hit is dirty, but there's an awful lot of garbage in there:
Everyone seems to be getting carried away with this fighting issue..........all because Parros tripped and fell?
He's a big boy ,who would be the 1st to say that fighting is a part of hockey.
I don't like the staged crap on faceoffs but when the passion is running high..........go for it.
Yzerman wouldn't have even played the amount of games he did had it not been for guys like Darren McCarty,defending him. -- Sarcasm is the body's natural defense against stupidity.
I am not in favour of going back to the ol' Chuck Norris division of bench clearing brawls, ongoing grudge fights and 4 hour games. This isn't the WWF.
if you gave referees the directive to eject players for dirty play, and made penalties like elbowing, charging, and high sticking 5 minutes, then the so called chippiness would end.
I cannot understand why hockey players are unique among professional athletes in that 1. Intent to injure a fellow athlete is considered okay until 2. Somebody beats the shit out of you and teaches you a lesson. A lesson that will be forgotten as soon as the team you are playing does not employ a goon.
This is so schoolyard and childish.
As for the "watch women's hockey" quip. No, I want to watch the best players in the world compete to win games and the Stanley Cup. I love hockey. What I don't love is the delusional denial of childish behaviour that somehow schoolyard justice is acceptable in the real world.
My son plays football. He has been intentionally poked in the eye more times than you can count. His revenge? Legally putting the other kid on his ass or blowing up a play in the backfield. My 14 year old son responds to dirty play by playing better. How mature of him.
As for the argument at these boys signed up for this, I'll tell you a little secret. Wade Belaks' wife and kids didn't sign up for this. Derek Boogards' family wanted another summer with him. Rick Rypiens' loved ones were devastated by his decline into booze and drugs.
I love big hits, I love big goals, I love the drama of the NHL playoffs. What I do not love is the insistence that a sport needs to kill or maim it's participants in order to entertain the masses. -- I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.
If Bernier keeps playing like that Reimer will be riding the bench most of the season.
FaxCap
why would Reimer be riding the bench??...he played great too...in fact, if the two could split the games and work together, it could work out very well for both of them...going into the playoffs with two confident, rested goalies would be lethal.
Simple....because I think in the long run Bernier is a better keeper.
I'm not a big believer in "rested" when it comes to keepers in the Cup playoffs.
said by shaner:I am not in favour of going back to the ol' Chuck Norris division of bench clearing brawls, ongoing grudge fights and 4 hour games. This isn't the WWF.
good...i don't think any of us would say we want that either.
quote:if you gave referees the directive to eject players for dirty play, and made penalties like elbowing, charging, and high sticking 5 minutes, then the so called chippiness would end.
players can already get those penalties, so i'm not sure what your point here is.
quote:I cannot understand why hockey players are unique among professional athletes in that 1. Intent to injure a fellow athlete is considered okay until 2. Somebody beats the shit out of you and teaches you a lesson. A lesson that will be forgotten as soon as the team you are playing does not employ a goon.
but it's not considered "ok", hence the penalties, suspensions and said beating if they do it.
quote:As for the "watch women's hockey" quip. No, I want to watch the best players in the world compete to win games and the Stanley Cup. I love hockey. What I don't love is the delusional denial of childish behaviour that somehow schoolyard justice is acceptable in the real world.
but this physical aspect of the game has always been there...in other words, the "game you fell in love with" has always had it in there...i wasn't trying to be a smartass with my "women's hockey" comment, but what you are asking for is essentially that, other than a male version of it...if you want to see what men's hockey like that looks like, try to scour the webs for some KHL games...let us know what you think after watching a few games.
quote:My son plays football. He has been intentionally poked in the eye more times than you can count. His revenge? Legally putting the other kid on his ass or blowing up a play in the backfield. My 14 year old son responds to dirty play by playing better. How mature of him.
ok, so i assume fighting isn't allowed in football (like you mentioned), and you just gave an example of dirty plays which exist, even in "kids leagues".
quote:As for the argument at these boys signed up for this, I'll tell you a little secret. Wade Belaks' wife and kids didn't sign up for this. Derek Boogards' family wanted another summer with him. Rick Rypiens' loved ones were devastated by his decline into booze and drugs.
i'm not sure if all the details of each of these players has been publicly released, but i have to disagree with your statement...Belak existed in the NHL specifically for his role...he wasn't a top scoring winger, or a number one D-Man...he was a 4th line enforcer, and a damn good one...knowing what his role entailed, his wife did sign up for it, as she married him, had kids with him, and i assume had a close relationship with him over the years...if she didn't want to deal with any of that, she could have married the store manager of their local grocery store and accepted the lifestyle that came with it instead.
quote:I love big hits, I love big goals, I love the drama of the NHL playoffs. What I do not love is the insistence that a sport needs to kill or maim it's participants in order to entertain the masses.
i agree, as would everyone in here...think back over the last few years...most of the bad plays in hockey don't involve a fight...they often involve a hit (clean or dirty) or some fluke play (player catching an edge and falling awkwardly into the boards)...where was the "think of the children" rant when Hall fell down and his teammate skated on his face?
Or the Clint Malarchuk throat slash or Marty Howe impaled by a goal post...
The Orr, Parros incident was nothing compared to the deliberate attempts of Wayne Maki and Ted Green to hurt each other in their wild and very obscene stick swinging fight...
And I'm glad the days of the Broadstreet Bullies is long gone. No one wants that era to return...
you are correct, this isn't the WWE (formerly WWF), but it is a sport and an entertainment business, just like the WWE is...the only difference being the outcomes aren't pre-selected and the games aren't choreographed.
for fun, let's pretend they took out the fighting...let's pretend you made a skills competition to determine entry into the league, essentially meaning, if you can't play like Crosby or Datsyuk, stay out...while every team would be great for talent, i'll say that the entertainment value would drop substantially...look at the crowd reaction when a big hit is made, or a fight breaks out...everyone is cheering, standing on their feet..."getting into the game" and excited...yes, they pay money to see the pretty plays, great goals and saves, but the big hits and fights are part of that entertainment value (to most)...the same goes for auto racing...how many people say "I like watching the races for the crashes"??...not only do most players want fighting in the game (something like 98%), but i can assure you owners (or ownership groups) do too...those parts of the games also create rivalries, which in turn boosts exposure, boosts attendance, boosts sales of merchandise, boosts team revenues, which in the end, boost player salaries.
how many players have died on the ice while fighting in the NHL?? (let's go back, 60 years)...i don't think any have...how many race car drivers have died racing cars in the last 60 years (in pro circuits)??.
are Greg Moore, Ayrton Senna, Dale Earnhardt and Dan Weldon's lives worth any less? -- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Who beat the shit out of David Steckel after he blindside elbowed Crosby? Matt Cooke has cleaned up his game. Who beat the shit out of him? Or did he grow up and come to the realization he could be out of a job after repeated suspensions?
Look, violence begets escalating violence. All I'm advocating is get tough on dirty play and fights won't need to happen.
quote:Look, violence begets escalating violence. All I'm advocating is get tough on dirty play and fights won't need to happen.
Going by your argument........Kessel should have got 20 games,cause that's the dirtiest ,cheapest shot you can do when you start using your stick like a sword.
Personally I think it should be left to the refs to intervene when players are doing nothing but swinging each other around,instead of swinging fists.
Hockey games wouldn't be the same without the threat of someone having to fight,if they disrespect a player with a cheap hit. -- Sarcasm is the body's natural defense against stupidity.
said by shaner:Who beat the shit out of David Steckel after he blindside elbowed Crosby?
i believe that was the outdoor classic game...was there even anyone in the Pens line-up do to anything about it??....as well, i don't think he was even suspended as they ruled it "incidental contact", which of course, is bullshit...even when he was a Leaf, it still bothered me that he did that to Crosby.
quote:Matt Cooke has cleaned up his game. Who beat the shit out of him?
quote:Or did he grow up and come to the realization he could be out of a job after repeated suspensions?
he had been suspended numerous times, yet continued to re-offend...the suspensions didn't seem to have much effect on him smartening up...getting his ass handed to him seems to have though.
quote:Look, violence begets escalating violence. All I'm advocating is get tough on dirty play and fights won't need to happen.
suspensions/fines etc happen after the fact though...having an enforcer on the ice (or on the bench) is more proactive than reactive.
if you have an intersection where people blow through a red light all the time, you can hand out all the tickets you want, but it hasn't prevented people from blowing through that light...however, if you have a cop car sitting at the intersection, clearly visible for all to see, magically, people stop for the red light. -- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Going by your argument........Kessel should have got 20 games,cause that's the dirtiest ,cheapest shot you can do when you start using your stick like a sword.
i would imagine over time, fighting will eventually go away, but it isn't going to magically reduce injuries to players...as i have already mentioned, fighting isn't the leading cause of injuries to players. -- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
I would argue Kessel wouldn't have even swung his stick in the first place if he wasn't put in a situation where he feared for his life. Did the stick swinging cause the fight or did the fight cause the stick swinging?
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Add to how badly things work the complexity of deciding if a player is a weasel, an "energy guy" or a player who's just edgy after something that has happened.....it'll be impossibly complex to please anyone.
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