dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
2543
share rss forum feed


InviteOnly

@start.ca

I am worried about Start...

Start reminds me a lot of Teksavvy when it first started up. Runs great, nice routes, fast DNS, talk to a reasonably intelligent person within 5 minutes for support or sales, but...

As we know the bigger Start becomes the harder it is to maintain this level of customer care and reliable problem solving. Teksavvy wait times are over an hour, people getting jerked around, although Teksavvy is trying they can't keep up and service is going downhill.

So, I am worried this will happen to Start. The bigger it becomes the less it will care about the individual customer (obviously they will try like Teksavvy and do their best) but, how about this idea...

At a certain point would Start ever think about becoming an invite only ISP? Or Start letting only a certain amount of subscribers in that can maintain a profitable business margin well keeping that "small" ISP" caring and service? I don't really see the need for an ISP to keep growing, why not just shut down membership at a certain point that is a happy proportion for profit and customer satisfaction?

Just putting that out there...


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable
LOL... I hope you'll be prepared to pay the price increase if you'd want an invite only ISP... It would not be cheap.

Besides, what you're suggesting makes no business sense... Businesses are set up to grow, make more money, expand, etc...
--



martyb

join:2013-05-18
Wemindji, QC
reply to InviteOnly
wow. Your plan doesn't sound like a business, it sounds like a cooperative. And it also sounds like you need to get a bit more fresh air and enjoy life, less doom and gloom and enjoy the good days...

Just because TSI has a perceived downward spiral, on this forum anyway, doesn't mean its true or necessarily terminal. Also, it doesn't mean that Start or anyone else will necessarily have the same consequences of growth. If anything people at Start and other ISPs for that matter have learned by watching how TSI fared.

Maybe you should start your own third party ISP cooperative and make your own rules.


InviteOnly

@start.ca
reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

Besides, what you're suggesting makes no business sense... Businesses are set up to grow, make more money, expand, etc...

I know that is the ingrained thinking we are all indoctrinated with, make more money, expand, kill the competition, but the end result of this path if you think through it is a business like Bell or Rogers.

Lets face it, those monopolies are the pinnacle of success for business we have all been taught and Universities/Business schools indoctrinate these business practises in kids everyday. I don't think that's the right way in all situations. It's always tough and hard to think out of the box, but it would be nice to support an ISP that does not believe in monetizing the internet. Back in the 56k modem days in the early 90's small ISP's use to only allow a certain amount of subscribers per month.

I just think the business model for ISP's as it is now is not working. There has to be a better way and just following along the same thought processes over and over is not going to change anything.

windian007

join:2013-09-02
reply to InviteOnly
The main cause of all problems at Teksavvy is they let users remain on unsupported old firmware cable modems. So when rogers did major change to network ( recent upstream channel changes), all those old firmware modems failed, and rogers refused to accept tickets for those customers and because there are lot of customers having issues, there is a build up of backlog

I hope START will be proactive in this area, and notify customers if they are running old firmware modem proactively and replace modems for customers running on rentals proactively .

Smart86

join:2013-08-11
North York, ON
reply to InviteOnly
Dude , that's life . We live in a very corrupted world . So, sooner or later the "corrupties" will find this place and they will do what they have done to all good companies .


InviteOnly

@start.ca
reply to martyb
said by martyb:

wow. Your plan doesn't sound like a business, it sounds like a cooperative. And it also sounds like you need to get a bit more fresh air and enjoy life, less doom and gloom and enjoy the good days...

Nothing wrong with a co-operative, but in this case it would still not be owned by the users so it would not be a co-operative, so your wrong on that. Like many of the best things in life, it would be limited membership.

That's how credit unions were formed because of the dis-trust of the banking business model. Also it's not doom and gloom it's just a different way, which if you just stick to the same business model over and over you will in the end just get more Bell's and Roger's of various sizes....and is that what you want? Just keep going along with the same system. Just turning all the ISP's into mini bell's.

I don't know why there would be such negativism over an idea, I must of struck a chord, which is good.


InviteOnly

@start.ca
reply to Smart86
said by Smart86:

Dude , that's life . We live in a very corrupted world . So, sooner or later the "corrupties" will find this place and they will do what they have done to all good companies .

I know that is the reality, but it takes out of the box thinking to change that, not just acceptance and "that's life". It very well might be, but it can be changed for the better. Just takes breaking the same old thinking patterns.

Smart86

join:2013-08-11
North York, ON
You can't stop corruptions LOL They are going to find this company. Again, And do what corruptions does best , Destroy . There no we can try this or that . You need to realize corruptions for NOW rules . No one on this faced of this earth can stop them . If there were another way don't you think the other good companies would of done it by now ?

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to windian007
said by windian007:

The main cause of all problems at Teksavvy is they let users remain on unsupported old firmware cable modems. So when rogers did major change to network ( recent upstream channel changes), all those old firmware modems failed, and rogers refused to accept tickets for those customers and because there are lot of customers having issues, there is a build up of backlog

The main cause? There are multiple on going issues over the last couple of months. The RF issues due to the upstream channel changes was actually the smaller of the two major issues that affected their user base. Of the customers that were affected a lot of them had the proper firmware versions and even Rogers retail customers were affected as well. This was not TSI specific at all. The DHCP issue which came about after node splits affected more customers. Even with the proper firmware version Rogers was very slow to deal with tickets or not doing so at all. To say they "let" customers stay on the older firmware is not correct. Only Rogers has control over when firmware images are pushed to the modems.

camelot

join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable

1 recommendation

reply to InviteOnly
The problem with TSI right now isn't so much their size. It's the fact that yes, they did allow users to buy D2 modems- which now they must replace. But that isn't the cause of the problems. It just adds to the headaches. As well, TSI was the first TPIA that offered cable, but on a disaggregated POI model. They basically shoehorned the architecture. Everyone in the province was asking TSI to bring cable to them, which they did (with great cost to them). That, combined with a lot of press coverage over UBB, resulted in explosive growth. Then the CRTC (Rogers) decided to switch from the disaggregated POI model, to the Aggregated model. Because TSI had existing the existing infrastructure, they had to migrate everyone over to the new one. This involves a lot of DHCP changes.

Start was born out of the aggregated model to begin with- so no changes required.

TSI will get a handle on things and they will stabilize. Just need time. Things like what they're going through don't happen overnight, especially with the amount of customers they have.

EDIT: Should add that Rogers has caused a lot of these problems themselves- and lately have been slow to react. Seems all of the TPIA are going through it. TSI just has the largest customer base.

vincom

join:2009-03-06
Bolton, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Anveo
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to InviteOnly
said by Anon80:

I don't really see the need for an ISP to keep growing, why not just shut down membership at a certain point that is a happy proportion for profit and customer satisfaction?

dumbest comment I have seen, sorry, but there not in buss. just to satisfy your needs, if every company thought that way who the hell could sign up with them and be stuck with robellus.
if you get fed up with a company move on to another, that's just life


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to InviteOnly
I see a dire need for all the IISPs to continue growing, so that the government can no longer keep ignoring the critical need to fix telecommunications in Canada. If only a sliver of population cares, MPs will never give IISPs the time of day if they' not worth the votes come election time. But if more and more people become customers, it'll eventually get to a point where MPs can just ignore the industry.

I do see your point in controlled growth and I it seems that is what Start is doing. You don't see a lot of media advertising, Start relies more on word of mouth to keep their growth pace steady.


Inviteonly

@start.ca
reply to InviteOnly
I'll give an analogy to drive home my point. Think of it as a golf course, the best ones have limited membership or the course becomes too busy and less enjoyable for everyone.

jubenvi

join:2006-12-12
Sarnia, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy DSL
said by Anon80:

Think of it as a golf course, the best ones have limited membership or the course becomes too busy and less enjoyable for everyone.

Courses with limited memberships also are generally much more expensive too and hence restrict membership that way also.

Maybe Start should charge 50% more than other ISPs and that will probably limit membership too and accomplish the same goal.


InviteOnly

@start.ca
reply to Smart86
said by Smart86:

You can't stop corruptions LOL They are going to find this company. Again, And do what corruptions does best , Destroy . There no we can try this or that . You need to realize corruptions for NOW rules . No one on this faced of this earth can stop them . If there were another way don't you think the other good companies would of done it by now ?

Do you mean corporations? I don't follow...


InviteOnly

@start.ca
reply to windian007
said by windian007:

The main cause of all problems at Teksavvy is they let users remain on unsupported old firmware cable modems. So when rogers did major change to network ( recent upstream channel changes), all those old firmware modems failed, and rogers refused to accept tickets for those customers and because there are lot of customers having issues, there is a build up of backlog

I don't think so. Teksavvy was having problems way before then. I recommended two people to go from Bell to Teksavvy beginning of the year. After waiting on the phone for more than 40 minutes they both gave up on Teksavvy and will not do business with them. Makes a bad first impression.


martyb

join:2013-05-18
Wemindji, QC
reply to InviteOnly

said by Anon80 See Profile
Nothing wrong with a co-operative, but in this case it would still not be owned by the users so it would not be a co-operative, so your wrong on that. Like many of the best things in life, it would be limited membership.

That's how credit unions were formed because of the dis-trust of the banking business model. Also it's not doom and gloom it's just a different way, which if you just stick to the same business model over and over you will in the end just get more Bell's and Roger's of various sizes....and is that what you want? Just keep going along with the same system. Just turning all the ISP's into mini bell's.

I don't know why there would be such negativism over an idea, I must of struck a chord, which is good.

I don't see why you feel so entitled to being a member to keep out the "riff raff" that is going to spoil your Internet experience with their abuse of tech support. You going to pay a premium to remain in the elites while the masses must go to crappy service and slow speeds? Nice.

Vote with your wallet. If Start ever goes to crap, then go elsewhere.

And as for the doom and gloom, you are riding the wave of success and are already looking for reasons to be unhappy.


InviteOnly

@start.ca
said by martyb:

I don't see why you feel so entitled to being a member to keep out the "riff raff" that is going to spoil your Internet experience with their abuse of tech support. You going to pay a premium to remain in the elites while the masses must go to crappy service and slow speeds? Nice.

That is a bad rationalization and does not even make sense, you're not understanding the main goal that it's not about "my internet experience" but about a business model that does not work for consumers. It's even gotten to a point government intervention was needed to curb the greed of huge corporations. That's insane and there is a better way even if you don't think so.


martyb

join:2013-05-18
Wemindji, QC
said by Anon80:

That is a bad rationalization and does not even make sense, you're not understanding the main goal that it's not about "my internet experience" but about a business model that does not work for consumers. It's even gotten to a point government intervention was needed to curb the greed of huge corporations. That's insane and there is a better way even if you don't think so.

yet you are suggesting to limit the "greed" of Start and other smaller players, so that you can maintain your current status-quo of satisfaction.

Their ambitions of becoming a larger player in the market are at odds with your desire to have what you determine to be good conditions, which are reliability, good access to support and low prices - but like any good deal, it comes with limited seating, and you are already in.


Inviteonly

@start.ca
said by martyb:

yet you are suggesting to limit the "greed" of Start and other smaller players, so that you can maintain your current status-quo of satisfaction.

Again, bad rationalization martyb and you're missing the point. It's not about me, it's about a broken business model that does not work for consumers. We have already seen what happens when a small ISP grows too quick. Does not make sense to repeat the same thing over and over.

camelot

join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
said by Anon80:

Does not make sense to repeat the same thing over and over.

You have no idea how the problems became what they are. It's not the "size" of TSI's customer base; it's a culmination of problems and unfortunate timing. Rogers' lack of movement on the issues is the number 1 issue.

So, you start a business, and then stop growing it- see how long you last.


martyb

join:2013-05-18
Wemindji, QC

said by camelot See Profile
So, you start a business, and then stop growing it- see how long you last.



yup. If you are not growing, you are dying. That is how business works.

Inviteonly, I am not rationalizing - it is you that starts a thread saying that your beloved ISP should/would-they consider being an invite-only or somehow stop the floodgates of bodies coming to them. Its convenient for you that you are already on board. How can you rationalize yourself being more worthy of anyone else to be a paying member? And that growth somehow equals bad/less quality?


InviteOnly

@start.ca
reply to camelot
said by camelot:

So, you start a business, and then stop growing it- see how long you last.

Dine at any good restaurants in Toronto lately that have a 3 month wait list? They are not growing, just providing world class food that people love and can only serve so many people per night. Oh right, we want all ISP's to be Mcdonalds (Pack'em in).

Golf at any good golf courses that are not accepting new members at this time? They are not growing, just providing a great golf experience that's not packed with people. Oh right, we want all ISP's to be public courses that make us wait half a day for tee time.

Hydro companies, private schools, night clubs, bakeries, day care, the list goes on where businesses have a limit on their customers so they can provide quality service.

Guru

join:2008-10-01
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

1 recommendation

Click for full size
OMG this topic is so STUPID!


InviteOnly

@start.ca
said by Guru:

OMG this topic is so STUPID!

Anti-intellectualism at it's finest.

Smart86

join:2013-08-11
North York, ON
reply to InviteOnly
No, I mean corruptions . There an very evil force in Canada . Haven't you notice some employees that do nothing but cause problems and get away with it ? They do such because they know beforehand what the out come will be . And they are usually the ones that never do any work . The sad part is they are everywhere , mostly in all the good paying companies .


WiFi
It's In The Air

join:2002-06-06
NiagaraFalls
Reviews:
·ikTel Networks
·Start Communicat..
reply to InviteOnly
said by Anon80:

So, I am worried this will happen to Start. The bigger it becomes the less it will care about the individual customer

A few days ago I asked Rocca about providing services to commercial locations. His reply, "But what we've found is that there isn't the level of consistency yet for us to be able to market and deliver that product up to our standards."

In other words, he knows what he is doing, he has a close eye on supply/demand and manages it well. This makes it quite clear that he won't allow anything to occur unless it meets their existing high standards.

I only wish the leadership of a large Canadian oil company that I worked for years ago had this attitude. They let the company grow to big and too fast, within 3 years the company was history. Best job I ever had, best company in the country to work for at the time (those that remember Dome Petroleum).
--
Type slowwer..I can't keep up!
-----------------------------
CANADA TPIA (cable Internet reseller industry) is under attack! If you want to keep ISP competition, contact CRTC, your MP, Industry Minister and Prime Minister's office NOW!


duuuuh

@rogers.com
reply to InviteOnly
Anti intellectualism?!

It is cerebral to suggest that by limiting your ISP to an exclusive few (whilst not increasing rates, clearly), will preserve the utopian IP space the market needs? Who needs growth to re-invest in the network, because once you limit your customer base to a certain number your bandwith requirements will never increase since you have created a static environment, right??? WRONG.

I hope you are not studying in business because comparing IT service companies to restaurants and golf clubs clearly is not what they are teaching in graduate school. Once you stop growth your revenue flatlines yet your costs slowly increase. It is only a matter of time.

Chong6969

join:2008-02-20
Niagara Falls, ON

1 edit
reply to InviteOnly
Best commercial ever LOL!!! Cogeco or Rogers should have ads like this, may as well be honest, and this is why start is unable to offer any better of a deal then they already do

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ilMx7k7mso