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InviteOnly

@start.ca
reply to martyb

Re: I am worried about Start...

said by martyb:

wow. Your plan doesn't sound like a business, it sounds like a cooperative. And it also sounds like you need to get a bit more fresh air and enjoy life, less doom and gloom and enjoy the good days...

Nothing wrong with a co-operative, but in this case it would still not be owned by the users so it would not be a co-operative, so your wrong on that. Like many of the best things in life, it would be limited membership.

That's how credit unions were formed because of the dis-trust of the banking business model. Also it's not doom and gloom it's just a different way, which if you just stick to the same business model over and over you will in the end just get more Bell's and Roger's of various sizes....and is that what you want? Just keep going along with the same system. Just turning all the ISP's into mini bell's.

I don't know why there would be such negativism over an idea, I must of struck a chord, which is good.


martyb

join:2013-05-18
Wemindji, QC

said by Anon80 See Profile
Nothing wrong with a co-operative, but in this case it would still not be owned by the users so it would not be a co-operative, so your wrong on that. Like many of the best things in life, it would be limited membership.

That's how credit unions were formed because of the dis-trust of the banking business model. Also it's not doom and gloom it's just a different way, which if you just stick to the same business model over and over you will in the end just get more Bell's and Roger's of various sizes....and is that what you want? Just keep going along with the same system. Just turning all the ISP's into mini bell's.

I don't know why there would be such negativism over an idea, I must of struck a chord, which is good.

I don't see why you feel so entitled to being a member to keep out the "riff raff" that is going to spoil your Internet experience with their abuse of tech support. You going to pay a premium to remain in the elites while the masses must go to crappy service and slow speeds? Nice.

Vote with your wallet. If Start ever goes to crap, then go elsewhere.

And as for the doom and gloom, you are riding the wave of success and are already looking for reasons to be unhappy.


InviteOnly

@start.ca
said by martyb:

I don't see why you feel so entitled to being a member to keep out the "riff raff" that is going to spoil your Internet experience with their abuse of tech support. You going to pay a premium to remain in the elites while the masses must go to crappy service and slow speeds? Nice.

That is a bad rationalization and does not even make sense, you're not understanding the main goal that it's not about "my internet experience" but about a business model that does not work for consumers. It's even gotten to a point government intervention was needed to curb the greed of huge corporations. That's insane and there is a better way even if you don't think so.


martyb

join:2013-05-18
Wemindji, QC
said by Anon80:

That is a bad rationalization and does not even make sense, you're not understanding the main goal that it's not about "my internet experience" but about a business model that does not work for consumers. It's even gotten to a point government intervention was needed to curb the greed of huge corporations. That's insane and there is a better way even if you don't think so.

yet you are suggesting to limit the "greed" of Start and other smaller players, so that you can maintain your current status-quo of satisfaction.

Their ambitions of becoming a larger player in the market are at odds with your desire to have what you determine to be good conditions, which are reliability, good access to support and low prices - but like any good deal, it comes with limited seating, and you are already in.


Inviteonly

@start.ca
said by martyb:

yet you are suggesting to limit the "greed" of Start and other smaller players, so that you can maintain your current status-quo of satisfaction.

Again, bad rationalization martyb and you're missing the point. It's not about me, it's about a broken business model that does not work for consumers. We have already seen what happens when a small ISP grows too quick. Does not make sense to repeat the same thing over and over.

camelot

join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
said by Anon80:

Does not make sense to repeat the same thing over and over.

You have no idea how the problems became what they are. It's not the "size" of TSI's customer base; it's a culmination of problems and unfortunate timing. Rogers' lack of movement on the issues is the number 1 issue.

So, you start a business, and then stop growing it- see how long you last.


martyb

join:2013-05-18
Wemindji, QC

said by camelot See Profile
So, you start a business, and then stop growing it- see how long you last.



yup. If you are not growing, you are dying. That is how business works.

Inviteonly, I am not rationalizing - it is you that starts a thread saying that your beloved ISP should/would-they consider being an invite-only or somehow stop the floodgates of bodies coming to them. Its convenient for you that you are already on board. How can you rationalize yourself being more worthy of anyone else to be a paying member? And that growth somehow equals bad/less quality?


InviteOnly

@start.ca
reply to camelot
said by camelot:

So, you start a business, and then stop growing it- see how long you last.

Dine at any good restaurants in Toronto lately that have a 3 month wait list? They are not growing, just providing world class food that people love and can only serve so many people per night. Oh right, we want all ISP's to be Mcdonalds (Pack'em in).

Golf at any good golf courses that are not accepting new members at this time? They are not growing, just providing a great golf experience that's not packed with people. Oh right, we want all ISP's to be public courses that make us wait half a day for tee time.

Hydro companies, private schools, night clubs, bakeries, day care, the list goes on where businesses have a limit on their customers so they can provide quality service.

Guru

join:2008-10-01
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

1 recommendation

Click for full size
OMG this topic is so STUPID!


InviteOnly

@start.ca
said by Guru:

OMG this topic is so STUPID!

Anti-intellectualism at it's finest.


duuuuh

@rogers.com
Anti intellectualism?!

It is cerebral to suggest that by limiting your ISP to an exclusive few (whilst not increasing rates, clearly), will preserve the utopian IP space the market needs? Who needs growth to re-invest in the network, because once you limit your customer base to a certain number your bandwith requirements will never increase since you have created a static environment, right??? WRONG.

I hope you are not studying in business because comparing IT service companies to restaurants and golf clubs clearly is not what they are teaching in graduate school. Once you stop growth your revenue flatlines yet your costs slowly increase. It is only a matter of time.


RLBL

join:2012-11-26
Gloucester, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to InviteOnly
said by Anon80:

said by camelot:

So, you start a business, and then stop growing it- see how long you last.

Dine at any good restaurants in Toronto lately that have a 3 month wait list? They are not growing, just providing world class food that people love and can only serve so many people per night. Oh right, we want all ISP's to be Mcdonalds (Pack'em in).

Golf at any good golf courses that are not accepting new members at this time? They are not growing, just providing a great golf experience that's not packed with people. Oh right, we want all ISP's to be public courses that make us wait half a day for tee time.

Hydro companies, private schools, night clubs, bakeries, day care, the list goes on where businesses have a limit on their customers so they can provide quality service.

Bad analogies. If they have serious wait times, that means constant income streams. Costs always go up, so you either have to bring in new business, or increase the costs of the current:

If Start were to become a members only club (pardon the expression), then sooner or later you will be paying more for the pristine service than you can get elsewhere. Yes customer support will be top notch, but you will not need it...

People will start looking for better deals and the company revenue shrinks. Again, this drives costs up for those who remain (assuming the company stays in business). That is how clubs remain "exclusive".

In short... interesting, but bad idea.

camelot

join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to InviteOnly
said by Anon80:

Dine at any good restaurants in Toronto lately that have a 3 month wait list?

I do not "wait" to eat a a restaurant. I go somewhere else, cheaper- to some place that WANTS my business.

said by Anon80:

Golf at any good golf courses that are not accepting new members at this time?

The days of members-only golf courses are gone. Memberships are far too expensive, when there are so many cheaper courses around. Seeing a common thread yet?

said by Anon80:

Hydro companies, private schools, night clubs, bakeries, day care, the list goes on where businesses have a limit on their customers so they can provide quality service.

Whaaa?
Hydro companies are members-only??? Bakeries, huh???

Day care are legally limited for safety's sake. If they were allowed, the skies the limit. Same with night clubs (fire regulations). This has nothing to do with "maintaining quality service". In fact, most break the rule anyway.

You've obviously not taken any economics courses, or ever owned a business of your own.
Your supplier costs and general costs of doing business always increase. Always. That's a fact of life. You either have to eat the cost, or pass it on to your customers...or a bit of both. Without accepting more customers, your service to your existing customer base will increase in price to the point where it's not economically viable for your customers...and you're out.

The key for any business, is properly managing your growth. This does NOT mean stifling your growth. It means adjusting your hiring, provisioning and processes and costs to meet your demand.

The problem with IISP's at the moment, is that there are no SLA's with the incumbents. They're almost entirely dependent on their suppliers for everything. Hopefully, the SLA thing will change soon with the CRTC.


InviteOnly

@start.ca
said by camelot:

said by Anon80:

Dine at any good restaurants in Toronto lately that have a 3 month wait list?

I do not "wait" to eat a a restaurant. I go somewhere else, cheaper- to some place that WANTS my business.

Like McDonalds, they want your business and will never turn you away. So thanks for making my point.

Apparently you take a busy business that can only serve so many customers at the quality level they want to uphold as a personal slight against you and how they don't want your business. Well those are the best places and if you don't understand that it's ok, they don't need you to.

It's a simple business model. x amount of Customers + x amount of Service = x amount of profit. If operating costs rise then the customer base rises accordingly.


InviteOnly

@start.ca
I already have the slogan thought out. Ready? here goes:

"Keep your ISP's small, and your downloads big!"


RLBL

join:2012-11-26
Gloucester, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to InviteOnly
said by Anon80:

said by camelot:

said by Anon80:

Dine at any good restaurants in Toronto lately that have a 3 month wait list?

I do not "wait" to eat a a restaurant. I go somewhere else, cheaper- to some place that WANTS my business.

Like McDonalds, they want your business and will never turn you away. So thanks for making my point.

Your point is not lost on me, but saying/comparing any company that wishes to grow is like McDonald's (in terms of quality of products and services), is going to extremes to make said point.

By this logic: I assume because Apple just opened a 2nd apple store in my city, they are simply catering to everyone and may start selling crap computers to meet the added demand? (excuse the obvious sarcasm, but you see my point)

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to InviteOnly
said by Anon80:

I already have the slogan thought out. Ready? here goes:

"Keep your ISP's small, and your downloads big!"

A pretty poor slogan.


InviteOnly

@start.ca
said by 34764170:

said by Anon80:

I already have the slogan thought out. Ready? here goes:

"Keep your ISP's small, and your downloads big!"

A pretty poor slogan.

Well, it's a "Start"...


InviteOnly

@start.ca
reply to RLBL
said by RLBL:

By this logic: I assume because Apple just opened a 2nd apple store in my city, they are simply catering to everyone and may start selling crap computers to meet the added demand? (excuse the obvious sarcasm, but you see my point)

Apple makes a tangible product. That's where supply, demand and expand business model is perfect. Not so with an ISP which provides a service that degrades the more users that use said service.

Anyway setting analogies a side, if we all just want ISP's to expand and keep getting bigger then the end goal is to turn them all into mini Bells and Rogers. It's not like bell wanted to treat people unfairly. That's what they evolved into because they became so big and became an institution in canada. It was impossible to treat everyone fairly. Same thing is happening to Teksavvy right now but on a much smaller scale.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
said by Anon80:

It's not like bell wanted to treat people unfairly. That's what they evolved into because they became so big and became an institution in canada. It was impossible to treat everyone fairly.

I'd challenge that.

I really don't think it's impossible at all, and rather it's about doing business in the same way you want to be treated in live: fairly, honestly and with respect. It's a two way street and treating people like actual people has been paramount to our success. I can't imagine why we'd change that culture that we've worked so hard to foster in our environment over the past 18 years.

When you walk into our office there are 6 words on the wall:

Integrity
Dependable
Progressive
Community
Innovative
Courtesy

....and they all have a few words after with an example of what those words mean to us, ie Courtesy says something along the lines of "treating people with respect". It took myself and the COO weeks to come up with the right 6 words, and I'm sure that when some people start with us they look at them and cringe a little about 'corporate garbage' in the hall, but after a short while most of them see that everything we do fits into these corporate values. I can't tell you how many times we've been in a meeting run up against a roadblock and out come the values and within seconds we know what the right path is, even if it's uncomfortable.

The rewards of this type of culture isn't just the growth we've seen, but is key in keeping a happy and healthy workplace. So in a way you could sort of call it a club, ie we don't tolerate unfair, unethical or disrespectful behaviour from anyone whether an employee or a customer, and in the end it makes us all a little closer, care a little more and be a little happier. Attitude is contagious, good or bad.

It might sound like I'm up here grandstanding or something, but those that have followed me long enough can attest this is genuinely how I operate, and I believe that by leading this way it makes its way into all aspects of how we interact with our customers.

For me personally in life and in business it's been successful and I have no reason to change now.


InviteOnly

@start.ca
Right now Rocca, you are a small enough company you can handle problems personally and make sure people are treated fair. What happens when you get too busy?

Corporate philosophy is nice to hear but in the end what happens when a customer had a line card pulled, the csr just puts in a case to bell but that takes days, the customer is in the right to be mad and a csr dosen't have the authority like you would personally to refund them. That customer would be treated unfairly not because you wanted to, but because you can't control everything and make it right like you can now because your buisness is small enough you can deal with it personally. That's just one specific example...

Having been around from the "start" hah..get it..lol....Anyways the days of Bell sympatico in the early 90's were amazing. They would ship you a modem overnight, give you a special 1800 number in the package and give you your own customer service rep you could call and they would answer right away without even a automated phone system to go through! Amazing by today's standards! Yeah, that was Bell.

They couldn't keep up that level of service though, and eventually it all went downhill and you have the Bell we all know and hate today. So hopefully you see where I am coming from here, that even Bell had the best of intentions when it first started out, but just human nature and law of averages takes over and it's impossible to deal with that many people fairly no matter what your philosophy is.

I use Teksavvy as an example of the future of Start because I don't see Start doing anything different than what Teksavvy was when it first started getting popular. Rocky is a great guy and I met him in person and knew he was a sweet and honest guy who had to get out of the business when Teksavvy grown too quick. He couldn't control everything, and look at Teksavvy now, they do their best but They can't keep up with the growth.

I hope you read this with an open mind and not a confrontational one which is the nature of Internet forums today sadly. I'll end all this with a great quote:

"The road to bhell, is paved with good intentions." - Saint Bernard of Clarivaux (I added the b)

geokilla

join:2010-10-04
North York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
It'll happen eventually I feel. But how big of an issue it'll be, only time will tell. What's amazing though is how different rocca approaches the public and tries to stay ahead of the game, whereas Marc is always behind the curve, giving answers that no one likes to hear, shifting blame towards the others. It's a simple case of being reactive vs preventive. Of course rocca has an edge because he can "spy" on Teksavvy via the forums, read the complaints, and figure out preventive ways to prevent Teksavvy blunders on happening to his own company. The following is a prime example:

»[DSL] Stay Away.....Teksavvy is a scam


jmck
formerly 'shaded'

join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Start Communicat..
reply to InviteOnly
you just don't seem to understand they've been around for ages and growing at a stable rate and have continued to grow at rate that works out for them. they've chosen not to mass advertise everywhere by choice i believe so i don't see things changing.

they will continue to grow just like they always have, but will continue to hire and expand at a rate they feel they can sustain.

i'm not sure how long you've actually been a Start customer or who you really are, but if you've been with them for any amount of time (even 6 months) you'd see and trust what rocca says.


martyb

join:2013-05-18
Wemindji, QC
reply to InviteOnly

said by Anon80 See Profile
Not so with an ISP which provides a service that degrades the more users that use said service.



the above is totally and absolutely false. ISP service degrades when an ISP does not provision it correctly, you don't need a single user to become a crappy ISP. And what do you need to provision correctly? $$$$$$$ for INVE$TMENT. No growth == no $$ to re-invest == a downward slow, painful death.


InviteOnly

@start.ca
reply to geokilla
said by geokilla:

It'll happen eventually I feel. But how big of an issue it'll be, only time will tell. What's amazing though is how different rocca approaches the public and tries to stay ahead of the game, whereas Marc is always behind the curve, giving answers that no one likes to hear, shifting blame towards the others. It's a simple case of being reactive vs preventive. Of course rocca has an edge because he can "spy" on Teksavvy via the forums, read the complaints, and figure out preventive ways to prevent Teksavvy blunders on happening to his own company. The following is a prime example:

»[DSL] Stay Away.....Teksavvy is a scam

Yes, I see what you mean. I would hope Rocca is at least watching Teksavvy to try and avoid the problems they have had.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to InviteOnly
We're already well too big for me to handle all the problems ...but I have in place a great team to work with multiple levels of escalations below me that do an excellent job of helping customers through any type of issue.

I try to be extra visible and helpful here of course but even if my involvement with the tech side of things here changes, which undoubtedly it will, someone who is just as competent and helpful will certainly take over that aspect.

Much of growth management is making sure it happens in a sustainable way, and making sure as you grow that you find the people with the right attitude to continue in scaling your culture up. Avoiding hypergrowth while still growing at a steady rate has been the approach we've taken and while we're almost 10 times bigger than we were a couple of years ago, I don't think many would say their experience with us has changed in a negative way. At least customer #2 who signed up in 1996 is still pretty happy with us, so we can't be all bad.

I certainly hear what you're saying though and I'm glad you care about it, but rest assured I have no aspirations of becoming Bell/Rogers, rather keep building a great team of people to work with who like what they do and bring that positive experience to our customers.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to geokilla
said by geokilla:

Of course rocca has an edge because he can "spy" on Teksavvy via the forums, read the complaints

It's enough just keeping on top of this forum.

Seriously though, while it's important to be aware of what others in the industry are generally doing, it's business 101 to focus on your customers and not your competitors or you'll never achieve your own goals.

(not that I really consider Marc a competitor which I've said a bazillion times, I see the bigger picture of 95% of the market in incumbent hands and those are my competitors, but my point is that time/effort is better spent on your own objectives instead of watching others)


MJB

join:2012-01-29
Reviews:
·VMedia
·ACN DSL
Click for full size
capitalism at best... rogers/bell zombies
that's the problem.... television, radio, billboard ad's, internet ad's
the consumers are zombies


rogersmogers

@start.ca
reply to rocca
said by rocca:

We're already well too big for me to handle all the problems ...but I have in place a great team to work with multiple levels of escalations below me that do an excellent job of helping customers through any type of issue.

I try to be extra visible and helpful here of course but even if my involvement with the tech side of things here changes, which undoubtedly it will, someone who is just as competent and helpful will certainly take over that aspect.

Much of growth management is making sure it happens in a sustainable way, and making sure as you grow that you find the people with the right attitude to continue in scaling your culture up. Avoiding hypergrowth while still growing at a steady rate has been the approach we've taken and while we're almost 10 times bigger than we were a couple of years ago, I don't think many would say their experience with us has changed in a negative way. At least customer #2 who signed up in 1996 is still pretty happy with us, so we can't be all bad.

I certainly hear what you're saying though and I'm glad you care about it, but rest assured I have no aspirations of becoming Bell/Rogers, rather keep building a great team of people to work with who like what they do and bring that positive experience to our customers.

So that all being said would you do something which TSI refuses to do which is a stop sell. Example: one of the other TPIA providers goes out of business and you get a flood of new customers which you cannot keep up with are you willing to turn them away to keep the overloading of systems and staff down or just let it go all nuts like TSI did when they started doing cable and which was there downfall they never recovered from.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to InviteOnly
said by Anon80:

said by geokilla:

It'll happen eventually I feel. But how big of an issue it'll be, only time will tell. What's amazing though is how different rocca approaches the public and tries to stay ahead of the game, whereas Marc is always behind the curve, giving answers that no one likes to hear, shifting blame towards the others. It's a simple case of being reactive vs preventive. Of course rocca has an edge because he can "spy" on Teksavvy via the forums, read the complaints, and figure out preventive ways to prevent Teksavvy blunders on happening to his own company. The following is a prime example:

»[DSL] Stay Away.....Teksavvy is a scam

Yes, I see what you mean. I would hope Rocca is at least watching Teksavvy to try and avoid the problems they have had.

Well, there is a problem that exists that needs to be corrected at the CRTC.

Nobody can plan for 3 week long delays.

This is not a case of being proactive or reactive. The truth is that we have been proactive in many ways and in other ways we have been reactive.

Like what I have to say or not. Fixing these delays and outages at the CRTC will help all of us.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy