Reviews:
 ·AT&T Midwest
| reply to AbruptMayhem
Re: [Heat or AC] Are these quotes reasonable? If the alternative would be fuel oil, a heat pump might make sense. As a primary heat source near Chicago, natural gas is cheaper and more reliable. |
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nonymousPremium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
2 edits | The heat pump would just be an option for the future. Or no fuel oil or furnace itself needs repair could use the heat pump until oil or fixed. |
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 GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 | All of that sounds inconvenient. I'm willing to pay for simple and headache free.
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Yedinitsy do nulya. Good job, idiot. |
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| reply to Goober
Heat pumps are most efficient around 45-50 degrees and stop being very effective below 25. As long as you know how they work to play to their strength you're golden. |
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1 recommendation | reply to Goober
I live in central MO and the heat pump works quite well. What you have to get past is that it puts out around 90 degree heat at best, so even though it is heating, it feels cool to the touch. NG and electric might be 120 degrees or so, so it feels warmer. We have a lot of winter days in the 40's and has been great. I lived in Naperville IL and I wouldn't consider a heat pump there. It gets too cold for too long.
I just purchased an Amana heat pump system with variable speed blower, 3.5 ton, with add-on 10 year bumper-to-bumper warranty including labor coverage, with all installation including new sheet metal work, 12kw supplemental heat, lifetime warranty on the compressor for around $6500 before my electric company rebates and tax credits.
One thing I found is that almost all of this stuff is the same. Nearly everyone but Trane uses Copeland scroll compressors, same Chinese electronics, etc. The difference is in who installs the thing. I learned that on this very forum!
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+++ATH0 |
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 FrinkProfessorPremium
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ
1 recommendation | reply to themagicone
Re: [Heating or Air Conditioning] Are these quotes reasonable? said by themagicone:I installed a 98% furnace, 18+ seer AC, etc etc... My energy cost have gone up 30%. I've yet to explain it nor my HVAC contractor. I nearly eliminated every NG appliance, went from a 60% > heater to 98% yet gas use it still up. Only explanation that we can come up with is that the blower operates lower so it runs longer. Sure it uses less gas and is more efficient but uses more gas as it runs longer. Same with the AC. Ouch!! I can say that I had my 1990s furnace and AC unit replaced to a 97% furnace, 18.5 AC and my gas and electric bills got cut by as much as 35-40%.
We had a flue pipe for our water heater, and as part of the work replaced water heater to direct vent, and knocked down the chimney to use the freed space to run new supply and returns to the 2nd floor up and thru the attic, thereby adding a path for the second zone we installed. When we did this work NJ had a program where they gave you 50% of your investment cost back if you saved 25% on energy use, so while I may have splurged on the project I got a ton of value out of that program...
Goober looking at my quote comparing to your high end estimates they seem in line with what I paid.
I know it pales in comparison, but I found a Honeywell WiFi thermostat for $85 on eBay and it was a easy install. Not sure what they are charging you for that one item, hopefully not $350... »www.ebay.com/itm/Honeywell-wi-fi···d82c19ea |
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 cowboyroPremium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to AbruptMayhem
Re: [Heat or AC] Are these quotes reasonable? said by AbruptMayhem:Heat pumps are most efficient around 45-50 degrees and stop being very effective below 25.
1 - Define "very effective". In theory heat pumps are over 100% efficient at any temperature, in practice many will shut down around 10F or so. My 2nd floor heat pump produces just enough heat at 10F to not require auxiliary heating to start and is still cheaper to operate than the auxiliary oil.
2 - Heat pumps are more efficient when the temperature difference between "inside" and "outside" is lower - even more efficient when the outside temperature is higher than inside. |
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 KenPremium,MVM
join:2003-06-16
Markle, IN | reply to Goober
One thing to keep in mind is that even though most heat pumps come standard with electric heat strips, you can have natural gas heat as the backup. You use the heat pump when it's more efficient, and switch to natural gas when it's more efficient. It's the best of both worlds, but comes with a higher price. |
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| reply to Goober
Good article on heat pumps.
»home.howstuffworks.com/home-impr···pump.htm
Note the Pro/Con section: "they tend to be somewhat ineffective in any climate where the outdoor air temperature falls near or below freezing on a regular basis" |
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 DarkLogixTexan and ProudPremium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3 | What about a geo-thermal heat pump? |
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GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 Reviews:
 ·Dish Network
| I looked at geothermal and here's what a calculator told me:
Here are your results from the GeothermalGenius.org savings calculator:
By switching to geothermal you could avoid paying $55784 dollars too much over the next 15 years to heat/cool your home by using the ground you already own. The ground loops have a lifespan of 50+ years.
Including the recent 30% federal tax credit, a system for your particular home would be in the ballpark of $35805.
The initial system investment would be recuperated in savings in 12 years. Installing geothermal is also like upgrading your kitchen, it adds value to your home. We estimate the increase in home value alone to be worth $25300.
The size of the heat pump will be around 11 tons, although this needs to be determined by your local Geothermal Contractor's analysis. Several factors will affect the system size (like insulation).
You could finance the system, with of a payment of $415.73 per month, which is comparable to what you already pay on average to heat and cool.
Please note that the calculator is intended to produce Ball Park figures, it is not producing an exact quote or an exact system sizing although we strive to make it as accurate as possible. The numbers in the output are not to be used as an official quote or in designing a system without the supervision of a Geothermal Professional.
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I'm not willing to spend that much.
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Yedinitsy do nulya. Good job, idiot. |
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 stev32kPremium
join:2000-04-27
Mobile, AL
kudos:1
 ·Mediacom
·DIRECTV
·AT&T Southeast
| reply to boogi man
said by boogi man:I've not heard of SS piping for resi use, most just use poly and either use a pond, stream, buried in trenches or vertical wells for closed loop or go with an open loop with a return well. You could use PVC, CPVC, or any of several other plastic materials. When you do that you should install more (a lot more) pipe because of the lower heat transfer coefficient of plastic vs SS. Most plastics are good as far as corrosion goes, but they can be mechanically damaged and if you have to dig up or replace pipe due to a leak you will wish you had used SS. |
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| reply to Goober
That's insane. I can't begin to imagine a geo system being that much unless you really went with nothing but unobtanium components everywhere in the build and hired an engineering firm out of nyc to travel to the job until completed |
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nonymousPremium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ | reply to AbruptMayhem
said by AbruptMayhem:Heat pumps are most efficient around 45-50 degrees and stop being very effective below 25. As long as you know how they work to play to their strength you're golden.
There was some poster here that I think has one in CT and I think they work even lower than that. Now if you have a cheaper way to heat then may not be worth it.
But as a backup or an optional other choice in those conditions not a bad idea. A heatpump is not any more complicated than an AC. Just runs in reverse when needed.  I have a heatpump in PHX as do most others and our street is not running over with repair trucks all the time. |
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GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 | reply to boogi man
I was reading up about it generally and some website said it would cost about 3-5x regular costs. So when I found the ballpark website, I wasn't surprised by the numbers.
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Yedinitsy do nulya. Good job, idiot. |
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nonymousPremium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ | reply to boogi man
said by boogi man:That's insane. I can't begin to imagine a geo system being that much unless you really went with nothing but unobtanium components everywhere in the build and hired an engineering firm out of nyc to travel to the job until completed
Most of the extra cost may be the underground work for geothermal then the piping etc.. If and when we move to NM most likely will go geothermal but over there have enough acreage to do it. Plus have people with equipment to either do cheap trenching or wells. Then run the tubing ourselves. |
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| reply to Goober
How big of a house do you have, our 2500 sq ft house only needs a 5 ton geothermal unit. I can't believe they wanted an 11 ton unit. |
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GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 | Not huge or anything. 3700 sf |
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Reviews:
·ProLog
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·voip.ms
| reply to scott2020
said by scott2020:purchased an Amana heat pump system with variable speed blower, 3.5 ton, with add-on 10 year bumper-to-bumper warranty including labor coverage, with all installation including new sheet metal work, 12kw supplemental heat, lifetime warranty on the compressor for around $6500 before my electric company rebates and tax credits I installed an Amana 3 ton 2 stage 18 SEER heatpump + strips last fall with the bumper to bumper 10 year Amana warranty for about the same price. Been Very happy with it even on 10* days.
How it would perform in Naperville when it gets -15* is another story. Under those conditions, the strips would be heating the home.
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The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. |
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Reviews:
·ProLog
·Verizon Online DSL
·voip.ms
| reply to linus5171
said by linus5171: our 2500 sq ft house only needs a 5 ton geothermal unit. I can't believe they wanted an 11 ton unit. Correct: If the manual J calls for 5 tons then it will be 5 tons in either an air-air or water-air unit.
Some where I read that the ground loop cost for horziontal boring would be about $3,000/ton. Equipment cost would be almost the same so you are looking at $15,000 for the heat sink and $6,000 for the unit for a total of around $21,000 . Still a bit of change.
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The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. |
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 djrobxPremium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
·VOIPo
 ·Verizon Wireless..
·Time Warner Cable
·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to Goober
Re: [HVAC] Are these quotes reasonable? Ouch!! I can say that I had my 1990s furnace and AC unit replaced to a 97% furnace, 18.5 AC and my gas and electric bills got cut by as much as 35-40%. |
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GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 Reviews:
·Dish Network
| reply to Goober
Trane Quotes Just received a Trane quote (below). I'm having a hard time comparing apples to apples. Any clear winner in terms of cost/quality? I've sent a message asking whether there are any incentives available on these or if the pricing includes them.
This company also said, "Because you are going with a high efficiency furnace (double heat exchanger) you are going to lose some efficiency of the AC. That is the reason why the Certificate shows lower efficiency of the whole system comparing to efficiency of each separate unit." Is this a valid statement?
Also, are electronic air filters and UV systems worth the cost of $3,000?
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Certified 14.5 SEER
Trane XV95 120,000BTU 5T 2stage Variable Speed 96%AFUE Furnace
Trane XR16 5T 16SEER R410A 1stage Condenser Unit
Trane 5T R410A High Efficiency Coil
GeneralAir 1137 power humidifier
Basic Air Filter
Thermostat
Labor
$9,850
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Ceritified 15.0 SEER
Trane XV95 120,000BTU 5T 2stage Variable Speed 96%AFUE Furnace
Trane XL18I 5T 18SEER R410A 2stage Condenser Unit
Trane 5T R410A High Efficiency Coil
GeneralAir 1137 power humidifier
Basic Air Filter
Thermostat
Labor
$10,980
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Certified SEER 16.0
Trane XC95M 120,000BTU 5T Modulating Variable Speed 96%AFUE Communicating system Furnace
Trane XL20I 5T 20SEER R410A 2stage Condenser Unit
Trane 5T R410A High Efficiency Coil
GeneralAir 1137 power humidifier
Basic Air Filter
Trane Communicating Programmable Thermostat
Labor
$13,250.
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Yedinitsy do nulya. Good job, idiot. |
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Reviews:
·ProLog
·Verizon Online DSL
·voip.ms
| said by Goober:Certified 14.5 SEER
Trane XV95 120,000BTU 5T 2stage Variable Speed 96%AFUE Furnace
Trane XR16 5T 16SEER R410A 1stage Condenser Unit
Trane 5T R410A High Efficiency Coil
GeneralAir 1137 power humidifier
Basic Air Filter
Thermostat
Labor
$9,850
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Ceritified 15.0 SEER
Trane XV95 120,000BTU 5T 2stage Variable Speed 96%AFUE Furnace
Trane XL18I 5T 18SEER R410A 2stage Condenser Unit
Trane 5T R410A High Efficiency Coil
GeneralAir 1137 power humidifier
Basic Air Filter
Thermostat
Labor
$10,980
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Certified SEER 16.0
Trane XC95M 120,000BTU 5T Modulating Variable Speed 96%AFUE Communicating system Furnace
Trane XL20I 5T 20SEER R410A 2stage Condenser Unit
Trane 5T R410A High Efficiency Coil I don't know a whole lot about Trane model numbering conventions but I would assume the "20SEER R410A" condenser was capable of a 20 SEER when matched with a proper coil.
For some reason this is only being quoted as a 16 SEER system. Possibly a mismatched coil or air handler?
Ask the vendor for the AHRI certification number for the combination he is quoting , as well as the exact models he will be installing, then plug the numers into the AHRI website: »www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirect···rch.aspx
You are paying a lot for the Trane equipment, make sure you are getting what you expect and getting a matched, AHRI listed, most efficient system.
Also consider that without matched AHRI listed equipment installed, you can not get any Federal tax credits.
Have you contacted an Amana dealer? Good prices and excellent warranty in my experience.
Remember: it is not the name tag, it is all in the quality of the install.
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The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. |
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GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 Reviews:
·Dish Network
1 edit | I'm considering both companies to be equally good. The company that quoted me this is one I've used in the past for a rental. They did a good job and after install experience was good as well.
As for the difference in SEER versus certified SEER, they said, "Because you are going with a high efficiency furnace (double heat exchanger) you are going to lose some efficiency of the AC. That is the reason why the Certificate shows lower efficiency of the whole system comparing to efficiency of each separate unit."
I guess my main confusion lies with the fact that the best Carrier is 98% whereas the best Trane is 96% efficiency for the furnace. Also, 2 stage versus 1 stage versus 60 stage vs modulating variable.
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Yedinitsy do nulya. Good job, idiot. |
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AsherNPremium
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON | reply to robbin
Re: [Heat or AC] Are these quotes reasonable? said by robbin:said by Goober:I'm zone 5/6, so I think a heat pump is out. I don't understand that logic. If it was that cold there then you have no need for an AC. These zones have temperature extremes. I'm in Toronto, around zone 5. It can get as cold as -30 and as hot as 100. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | I am well aware that they have temperature extremes. My point was that even though a heat pump isn't useful at -30, it is very useful and much more efficient in the 30 to 60 degree range. At extreme cold conditions you use the furnace. When there are more moderate temps you use the heat pump. Thermostat takes care of everything and automatically switches between the two heat methods. |
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Reviews:
·ProLog
·Verizon Online DSL
·voip.ms
1 recommendation | reply to Goober
Re: Trane Quotes said by Goober: guess my main confusion lies with the fact that the best Carrier is 98% whereas the best Trane is 96% efficiency for the furnace. Also, 2 stage versus 1 stage versus 60 stage vs modulating variable. Depending how close the Furnace's output BTU matches the Manual J will determine if you need a 2 stage or modulating.
What you want to do is to get the furnace to run as long as possible to minimize hot/cold swings in the room. Granted on warm days it will run less and on cold days it will run more, but on the cold days, try to maximize running.
Ideally the heat output from the furnace will be slightly more that the heating load of the house. If it is matched and the house is always demanding the Manual J load then a single stage would be ideal. However getting an exact match and having -20* days ( or whatever the design temperature is for your location) continuously will never happen.
For this reason manufacturers have devised ways to reduce the furnace output to get longer run times with the more comfortable and efficient results.
As a bare minimum I would go 2 stage with a communicating thermostat; it gives you the most benefit bang for the investment It probably will run on the first stage 90% of the time during the heating season. On really cold windy nights you may see stage 2 kick in, but once again this all depends on how closely the unit is sized to the Manual J load.
If money were no object, the VS modulating would be a good option, however be prepared to experience the thing to run almost continuously as it will slow down the blower and reduce the gas input to match the house's demand.
As far as the difference between 98% and 96%, from a fuel cost, not really significant and probably is due to minor design differences in the heat exchanger and blower configuration. It also could be related to the way the unit shuts down and extracts the last little bit of heat from the heat exchanger.
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The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. |
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GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 | Perfect. Thanks. |
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 linicxCaveat EmptorPremium
join:2002-12-03
United State
·CenturyLink
| reply to Goober
Re: [HVAC] Are these quotes reasonable? You can rebuild the furnace with all new parts. You should have a new furnace warranty even though the shell is old. You're probably better off replacing the A/C at the same time.
I did the above and saved about $1500.
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Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside |
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 dennismurphyPut me on hold? I'll put YOU on holdPremium
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ
·Verizon FiOS
·Optimum Online
| reply to Goober
My house has a 3-year-old, bottom-of-the-barrel Ruud system. The A/C bills in the summer can be expensive (my electric bill runs $250-350 in the summer) but the heating bills are outstanding. The furnace is an 80% efficiency unit, and my natural gas bill for the entire year runs about $1100.
We bought the house 2.5 years ago, so the last owner had installed the new unit right before they put it on the market. It's definitely not the system I would've picked, but it doesn't make any sense for me to throw away a 3-year-old setup to save a few hundred (at best!) per year.
Honestly, the question becomes - what's the payback on the more efficient system? Does it make sense to spend an extra $5,000 for the ultra-efficient stuff if it nets you $250 in savings a year? That's a 20-year breakeven point.
Same reason solar isn't making sense for a lot of folks ..... |
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