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Jeff
Connoisseur of leisurely things
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join:2002-12-24
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Re: [Other ] Snow Removal Liability Question

I help my neighbors out all of the time because they're older, in their 60s. The thought of them suing me for helping them never crossed my mind. It's really bullshit how the law penalizes you for helping out.

Camelot One
MVM
join:2001-11-21
Bloomington, IN

Camelot One

MVM

In this case, it wouldn't be your neighbor suing you, it would be someone who visited them. So while your neighbor may be a perfectly kind and upstanding person, their friends (or any stranger visiting them) may not be.

John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
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join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL

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I'm inclined to think the initial inclination was to sue the property owner. Maybe his insurance company helped direct them to another target... Anything is possible since we don't know all the details. Something to think about, for sure.

I told my father about this today because he lives adjacent to a school and the town never clears the snow from an area across the street from his house which is used by kids walking to school. Since he owns a tractor with a front-end-loader, he always clears that area just to be a good neighbor. I advised him to stop doing so.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
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join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

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And people wonder why nobody does anything nice any more.

Personally I think the judge should have tossed the case and stated the neighbor was doing a friendly service and since they were not contracted to clear the paved locations they are not liable for the ice removal. And then for an extra whammo tell the guest he should be more careful when traversing a driveway after a New England storm.

I mean during "Snowpocalypse" and "Snowmegeddon" I cleared neighbor's sidewalks because they did not have a nice big 2 stage snow blower. liability is not something that even crossed my mind, Only helping people remove 26" of snow off the sidewalk crossed my mind.
iknow_t
join:2012-05-03

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this may answer the question. "In a pedestrian's personal injury action against a snowplow contractor for injuries sustained when the pedestrian fell in a parking lot after the contractor had plowed the snow without applying any abrasive materials to the icy surface, the contractor was not entitled to summary judgment because he would be liable if, as the pedestrian alleged, he had voluntarily undertaken a heightened duty of care, performed that duty in a negligent manner, and by not putting any abrasive material such as salt or sand on the icy surface of the lot made the situation more hazardous than if he had done nothing; a Good Samaritan is absolved of liability only for "ordinary negligence."[10]" »www.bpslawyers.com/Artic ··· aw.shtml

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

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said by iknow_t:

a Good Samaritan is absolved of liability only for "ordinary negligence."

Phew! I practice "ordinary negligence" every day!
tcope
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join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT

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said by Kearnstd:

Personally I think the judge should have tossed the case and stated the neighbor was doing a friendly service and since they were not contracted to clear the paved locations they are not liable for the ice removal. And then for an extra whammo tell the guest he should be more careful when traversing a driveway after a New England storm.

Judges almost never dismiss cases. Everyone is entitled to their day in court and it _should_ always be determined by a sampling of people in the area. This also means that the judge cannot do anything wrong.

In the OP's post we are missing what the friend did incorrectly. It was something... not just "removing" snow.

dosdoxies
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join:2004-12-15
Wallingford, PA

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said by scooper:

I guess the next time someone asks if I will help jumpstart their car I'll whip out a "I am not liable for any damages or injuries sustained as a result of this action" and have the recipient of help sign it before we start. Is THIS the kind of world we want to live in ? I sure don't but this sure sounds like something that some idiot would do....

And get it notarized!

Cho Baka
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join:2000-11-23
there

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While possible, all this sounds a little too much like an urban legend.

garys_2k
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join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

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said by Cho Baka:

While possible, all this sounds a little too much like an urban legend.

This. Was your co-worker personally involved, as you indicated, or was it a "guy who told me about his brother in law" that had this scrape. I'd look for more information, sometimes Googling the last name of the defendant will take you to open records that could back up what is claimed here.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

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Sounds like your coworker got a snow job from a bunch of slip and fall trolls. Who would the troll have sued if the homeowners driveway your coworker cleared, had paid a couple of kids to shovel the snow instead of your coworker? I will assure you that the accident the victim or the homeowners insurance company determined who removed the snow and decided to redirect the plaintiff's claim to your coworker. It was the responsibility of the homeowner where the fall occurred to make certain the sidewalk was clear or sanded.

My Mother In Law's home was in Arlington Massachusetts. I was visiting just before Christmas one year when there was a snow storm. A couple of teenagers came by the next morning and cleared the snow off the sidewalk. As soon as they were done my mother in law put on a coat and went out and sprinkled sand and salt on the sidewalk. I asked her why she sanded the sidewalk and she told me it was the homeowners responsibility for the condition of the sidewalk not the person that removed the snow. I found out she paid the teenagers to clear the sidewalk but not salt and sand it. An hour later we had sleet and the sidewalk was again covered with ice.

I lived in a development where the homeowners association was attacked several times by lawyers trying a shake down anyone they could, in the development, on behalf of a slip and fall victim. Whenever the homeowners association received such a demand letter the homeowners association attorney told the plaintiffs attorney to stuff it because the homeowners association owned no property and the roads and sidewalks were owned by the county government.

IowaCowboy
Lost in the Supermarket
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join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA

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Whether the lawyer accepts the case for representation is IF they stand a chance of collecting any money if they get a judgement.

There are many instances where the liable party may be "judgement proof" like if they have little or no assets and their only source of income is from government programs (such as social security or veterans benefits, which cannot be garnished under state and/or federal law). The property they own most likely will fall within the exempt property (for example, in Mass vehicle up to $7,500 is exempt $15,000 if owner is elderly/disabled).

Many lawyers will accept auto accident cases because most states require that you carry auto insurance to operate a vehicle legally. There is no state requirement that you carry homeowner's/renter's insurance but you can be required to carry it by your landlord or mortgage lender.

I have auto and renter's insurance but through different companies. I also have pet insurance on the cat but not on the dog. I have been thinking of dropping the pet insurance on the cat but the moment I do he'll get sick.
iknow_t
join:2012-05-03

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said by garys_2k:

said by Cho Baka:

While possible, all this sounds a little too much like an urban legend.

This. Was your co-worker personally involved, as you indicated, or was it a "guy who told me about his brother in law" that had this scrape. I'd look for more information, sometimes Googling the last name of the defendant will take you to open records that could back up what is claimed here.

there is more involved here. "
a Good Samaritan is absolved of liability only for "ordinary negligence" so, some information is missing, BUT, there is another problem, the plaintiff may have much more money to spend on a lawyer than the defendant, or the lawyer may take the case thinking it's an easy win. in THAT case, the defendant will lose!. this is a civil trial, whoever has the most money wins, justice don't count, unless you have enough money to have your lawyer prove it!.

nonamesleft
join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI

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If any of you guys live in Wisconsin, Illinois or Iowa.... You may have heard of hupy and abraham. They are the most god awful annoying bragging ambulance chasing lawyers on tv.
nonymous (banned)
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

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said by Mr Matt:

Who would the troll have sued if the homeowners driveway your coworker cleared, had paid a couple of kids to shovel the snow instead of your coworker?

The kids parents.

brian
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join:2002-05-02
Mission Viejo, CA

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said by John97:

I'm inclined to think the initial inclination was to sue the property owner. Maybe his insurance company helped direct them to another target...

This... or it's more likely either the neighbor's insurance or the neighbor's guest's insurance company sued the OP's coworker.

I went to the ER last year with severe back pain because of a couple stupid things I did. My health insurance company sent me a letter, that I initially ignored, trying to get information about where and how the "injury" occurred. They were looking to see if someone else should be paying. After being contacted a couple more times, I finally told them I hurt it myself at home (which was the truth). Then they went away.

What I see happening in this case is that that injured's insurance asked him what happened. He told them he fell at a friend's house. His insurance then went after the neighbor's HOI, who then found out that the OP's coworker did the shoveling and then proceeded to sue him.
02778712 (banned)
join:2013-07-08
MA

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said by Camelot One:

said by XXXXXXXXXXX1:

The neighbor's guest ended up suing my coworker, claiming that he failed to properly remove the snow and ice from the driveway, causing the fall. After spending a lot of money on legal fees, he LOST the case

I have never heard anything so insane. Was this in CT?

Definitely not in CT. The liability falls on the homeowner solely in this case in CT. The same goes for MA. Honestly I can't see or find a single case where they could go against the snow removal party. It's typically the homeowner or property owner in all cases. Even then you have to prove the property owner knew the conditions were unsafe and did nothing to correct it. If they didn't know they aren't liable. If this did in fact happen I want the lawyers name so I can hire them. I could use a miracle worker like that!
tcope
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Sandy, UT

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Are they the ones who use William Shatner's voice in their ads?

nonamesleft
join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI

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said by tcope:

Are they the ones who use William Shatner's voice in their ads?

Yes! Which doesn't make him or them anymore likeable.

Jehu
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join:2002-09-13
MA

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Yes this is definitely the case in MA. Doesn't help that the plows shove snow back to your sidewalk/driveway
02778712 (banned)
join:2013-07-08
MA

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said by Jehu:

Yes this is definitely the case in MA. Doesn't help that the plows shove snow back to your sidewalk/driveway

"In Papadopoulos v. Target Corp., 457 Mass. 368 (2010), it was established that the old rule in Massachusetts distinguishing liability based on natural and unnatural accumulations of snow and ice would be overruled. Therefore, by abolishing the long-standing separation between "natural" and "unnatural" snow and ice accumulation in slip and fall cases, the new ruling establishes that all property owners are now responsible for acting "as a reasonable person under all of the circumstances including the likelihood of injury to others, the probable seriousness of such injuries, and the burden of reducing or avoiding the risk" with regard to a property defect or hazard caused by "natural" and/or "unnatural" snow or ice accumulation. In addition, the new ruling for premises liability standard of reasonable care for falling accidents and other incidents caused by snow and ice accumulation applies retroactively based on the Court's decision."

Booost
@151.190.40.x

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said by XXXXXXXXXXX1:

said by Anon80:

1. You should have an umbrella policy, so you're protected if a lawsuit is not covered by your homeowners or automobile insurance policy. Problem solved.

Even if an umbrella policy would cover the damages, I'm sure you'd either get dropped or premiums would go much higher after a claim is paid. And that assumes that your umbrella would willingly pay... Insurance companies tend to not like to pay for anything they don't have to.

Then you need a better insurance company. When I had a claim against my homeowner's policy several years ago, my insurance company:
1. Worked with me to increase their reimbursement to me to the maximum amount possible.
2. Did not raise my rates.

Jehu
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MA

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"Unnatural snow or ice accumulation" That's great. I think this Winter I'm going to plant a sign saying "Please don't walk on snowy/icy areas as you may experience death."

edit: In case it wasn't clear, I was not disagreeing with your explanation of CT/MA laws, just kvetching about them.

cableties
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I live in a TH community that contracts snow removal.
They salt after shoveling, BUT they do not shovel out vehicles: we, the car owners, have to play "chinese fire drill" to move cars to cleared area (some neighbor is the holdup not to have their car out..so we dig it out for her...liability?). Then they clear that area, we move back and it begins all over for next parking area...
I slipped once but not serious. I also strained myself with shoveling out my car and another (cleared space so they could get out). That liability at the association? the neighbor?
This winter, I am only clearing path to back of car to get out. I used to clear sections of lawn for neighbors dogs to use. No more.
02778712 (banned)
join:2013-07-08
MA

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said by Jehu:

"Unnatural snow or ice accumulation" That's great. I think this Winter I'm going to plant a sign saying "Please don't walk on snowy/icy areas as you may experience death."

edit: In case it wasn't clear, I was not disagreeing with your explanation of CT/MA laws, just kvetching about them.

I just wanted to post some actual verbiage so people get the idea how it works.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
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I failed to mention that your most powerful ally can be the government agency that regulates, in this case snow removal. The first thing to find out is what is the responsibility of someone that performs snow removal services as a good Samaritan and not for profit. The regulatory agency might direct you to or email a copy to you, of the ordinance that applies. That will educate you, if an injured party has a legal cause for action against you if you provide free snow removal.

Anyone reading this newsletter is aware of unethical lawyers that try to extort a payment from persons that have no liability for an incident. These dirt bag lawyers hope you won't check if you are responsible. In the case of the homeowners association where I lived, they received demand letters regarding slips and falls on county owned sidewalks. The first time the association received a demand letter, the response was made by a lawyer, the association had on retainer. The letter informed the plaintiffs lawyer that the homeowners association owned no real property in the development, so they had no responsibility for the condition of the sidewalks. What really got a plaintiffs lawyers attention was a statement that if the HOA incurs any expenses regarding a malicious prosecution the HOA will counter sue for damages.

Before removing snow as a good Samaritan, one should check local ordinances to determine who is responsible if someone slips and falls after one plows snow. If one determines that an ordinance absolves them of liability and they receive a demand letter, send the plaintiffs lawyer a letter with a copy of the ordinance. Include a threat to counter sue if the lawyer proceeds with a lawsuit against you.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
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I used to own some office buildings that were managed by a large property management company. Their LP/Safety person said that from a liability stand point to leave any snow and ice alone.

The idea is that if we made an attempt to clear it out then we took the responsibility for others safety because they were trusting us that it was cleared correctly. If we didn't touch it then it was a proceed at your own risk and that the responsibility was put back on them because they should know the dangers of snow and ice.

She said they had been tested several times on this through out the US and they won every time when they didn't touch it.

Since we get very little snow here this was never much of an issue for more than once every 3-4 years.
battleop

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"and one thing that we were told, is to NEVER give other drivers instructions at an intersection(such as waving them through)"

Our Insurance guy has told us this a couple of times. I've always assumed that he got burned on this enough times that he thought it was important to tell people.

I'll let people into to traffic by giving them room but I don't do anything to let them know if it's clear or not.
battleop

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"Scenarios like this is why it's a good idea to purchase a General Liability Umbrella Rider/Policy"

These policies are super cheap for $1M or more. I think we pay less than a few hundred bucks a year for a $5M policy.
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I bet they both got sued and they went after the deepest pockets.