Tech / Special Interest → Automotive > Rebuild or Replace - 1999 Passat

Rebuild or Replace - 1999 Passat

(Bit of a long post.... Sorry)

Well, I went to a local VW dealer, and found a car I loved... a used 2012 VW Passat TDI with 11k miles on it. Okay, almost loved... It has a sunroof (which I hate), and the interior color wasn't my first choice, but it did have the TDI, and a 6spd manual! Anyway, because my credit isn't the greatest (not talking -1, but it is classified as Poor by CreditKarma), the dealer was going to be able to get me into the car, with just trading in my old 1994 Dodge Caravan (they were going to give me $500 for it, which that's about all it's worth...).... Price per month? $400..... They could have gotten me into the a 3 yr lease for $370/mo. I could afford it... it would make my insurance go up $40 a month as well. I was supposed to go pick it up this past Saturday, but backed out of the deal. I can't bring myself to make a $400/mo payment.

A few months back, I bought a 1999 VW Passat 1.8T... I bought it non-running. I knew when I bought it that the car was going to need a timing belt and head work. I only paid $500 for the car. I started thinking, that I have no idea how many miles are on this thing... I've never powered the car up (since I knew it didn't run, I didn't bother.) I put a battery in the car, and then was shocked to see the mileage.... 189k....

Still with me? Okay... I can about guarantee the motor will need rebuilding. I can buy a reman motor from Advance Auto for $3400 (A friend has a commercial acct and can probably get it for under $3000). Then I don't know what shape the tranny is in. The guy I bought it from said it was recently rebuilt, but I have no way to verify that. Here is what else I know is wrong with the car....

* Driver's rear door won't open
* Rear windows won't roll down (power windows)
* Needs driver's front fender and marker lamp
* Will need a new throttle cable (jacket is coming off)
* Cruise servo missing parts
* Driver's front door wont lock
* Factory head unit doesn't work (Wont power up)

I can figure about $4-5000 to get the car back to running. ($3000 for motor, and then incidentals, like hoses, belts, radiator, fluids, etc). Then maybe another $3-500 to fix the odds and ends.

So - Here we are.... Should I fix the car and drive it, knowing I have a car with a new motor that I *own*, or swallow my hatred of payments and get something like the 2012 TDI?

I'm just thinking about a 200k car... what else is going to fail in the near future... This is the decision I wrestled with all week... and I still not sure on what would be best.... I have transportation... I have my work car (which I can use for personal, but my back seat is full of work stuff... so no kids), I have my Jeep Grand Cherokee (4" of lift, all terrain tires, but needs suspension work and a PCM), and then I have my 94 Cavaran, (that has 160k on it, can't open the back hatch, has some body cancer)... I also have access to the 99 Grand Voyager I built for my at the beginning of the year (it has a rebuilt motor and trans - it replaced the 94 Caravan)...

I hate decisions.....
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"F is for Fire that burns down the whole town...
U is for Uranium...... Bombs...
N is for NO SURVIVORS!!!!!" Sheldon Plankton

Keep Calm and Carry On

The 1999 sounds like a write-off. If it was otherwise in terrific shape except for a blown motor, it might be worth sinking that kind of money into, but given the known problems, it's simply not. Who knows what else will blow up the week or month after you get it on the road? I'd hate to sink $4-5k into a car that's probably not worth that much getting it running only to discover another several thousand in repairs. It's got apparent electrical issues. Run, don't walk.

(I'd sell it as-is to whoever will take it off you hands.)

With that said, I propose a third alternative: get a slightly older car.

A 2010 or older with low miles (and look for a certified used car) will cost a good amount less than the 2012 you like and therefore lower the monthly payment. If you get a certified used car, it will cost a bit more than the same non-certified car, but you'll generally have more warranty.

Regardless of certified or not, you'll be presented with the opportunity to purchase an extended warranty. I won't get into the economics of that since it can work out or be a total waste of money depending on too many factors to get into here. (I got one for my current car since it has all sorts of very expensive-to-break bits like computers, turbos, all-wheel-drive, etc.)

According to a quick look on Edmunds site, it's worth $352 in a private party sale, $16 on trade-in (Yes, SIXTEEN DOLLARS) and $910 at dealer retail. Now does it make sense to drop in a $3,400 engine? (Hint: NO!!!)

Is that an interference engine? If so, then it's wasted. If not, you can take a chance on $100 for the parts and install a new timing belt. Drive it 'til it dies then scrap it.

What if you put that $4-5000 toward something like a 2010 (as suggested above) and have a smaller payment? Personally, I hate payments so put as much down as I am comfortable with and then finance as short as possible. Higher payment, but paid off in a couple years.

Then again, I paid cash for everything in the last 10 years cause I hate payments. And I don't buy new. But I do still have my hateful Ranger.
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Are YOU just a turkey voting for xmas?

Timing belt kit is around $150. You can but a kit that has all the bits that *should* be replaced when doing a timing belt, but that's something different.

I bought the car fully expecting to have to fix the head, mostly by sourcing a used head from the junkyard... but that was before I knew the car had 190k on it.

I found a kit from ECS, which has all the stuff that SHOULD be replaced during a timing belt change... timing belt, idlers, drive belts, water pump, and t-stat.... $300...

I know, steep for a motor that I don't know if it will run or not...

It's a beater. Treat it like one.

When I lived in Massachusetts, my roommate and I used to pride ourselves on finding drivable "winter rat" cars for $150 or less. Leave the nice stuff at home, safe from the road salt, and drive the beater all winter. Didn't spend a nickel on maintenance, other than to mount snow tires.

It's one thing to do premium maintenance on the family truckster, but for a local beater car that could drop dead at any moment, I just do enough to keep it running. Why send brand new parts to the junkyard?

Im in the its a toss up category and leaning to advising fixing the 99. Its awful nice not having payments. In my eyes it really comes down to warranty and length of loan on the 12 version. Gonna really suck if 3 years down the line your left with the decision of paying 400 a month and putting a motor in the 012 version.

The `12 has a TDI... Unless I abused it, I doubt it would fail before it was paid for. The warranty was the extent of the factory warranty, which was another 2 yrs or 24k miles.

The dealer called me... After not talking to them for a week you would have thought they forgot about me.... Anyway,... Now they are offering me $400/mo @ a 9% rate... where their old deal was like $435/mo @ 14%... And a purchase not a lease...

What are the terms of the financing? They can make your payment anything they want, but you'll wind up with a long finance term.

I'm going to rain on your parade. But if you have concerns about affordability, you will need to say no to the car.

Your concerns on affordability is your subconscious screaming to you that it is a bad idea. The car will not become any more affordable in the future, and will make things harder for you, especially when you run into some unexpected obligations.

I dont know what a tdi is but if the balance of the factory warranty is 24 months and you take out a 5 year loan that should be taken into consideration. When it comes to VW shit aint cheap.

Term is 72 months, which is 6 years...

Asking price is $20,500. A CPO car (certified pre-owned). Remainder of factory warranty, and then extended warranty up to 60k.

I like the car. The only thing I *DON'T* like is the sunroof.

I shot them an offer of $18,500, and the salesman starts harping about they are already losing "$438" on the car by selling it for $20,500.... uh huh....

Oh... TDI is the diesel...

--
"F is for Fire that burns down the whole town...
U is for Uranium...... Bombs...
N is for NO SURVIVORS!!!!!" Sheldon Plankton

Keep Calm and Carry On

So than you have the advantage of the fuel you will save with the TDI. Still a toss up but sounds like you want it so ide get it.

Ditch the 99. A 1.8T in that shape is more trouble than its worth! It is an interference motor and assume the valves are trashed if the car "needs a timing belt" (cause the old one broke while running). Also they are famous for oil sludge issues if the oil wasn't changed frequently and with the correct synthetic. If its an automatic, who knows what kind of shape that box is in after 189k.

You can buy a running B5 Passat for less than that one would cost to get running, just keep that in mind. $5000 can get you a much more reliable, and running, car with a lot less hassle. Its not like a Passat 1.8T is a rare or collectable car. Part it out or re-sell it on VWVortex or some other VW site to recoup your cash.

That's what I've been thinking regardless if I get the 2012 or not.

The sunroof is a deal breaker for me. The damn thing failed on the test drive... The salesman said it hadn't been through service yet, and when it was done, he said the only thing they had to do to the sunroof was lube it up.... I'm leary....

When the guy calls me today, I'm going to tell him exactly that... the sunroof is a deal breaker, and he is going to have to come down further in price for me to take the car.
--
"F is for Fire that burns down the whole town...
U is for Uranium...... Bombs...
N is for NO SURVIVORS!!!!!" Sheldon Plankton

Keep Calm and Carry On

Neon - I have a couple of thoughts for you.

I bought, new, a 2000 Jetta GLX VR6. I had it for 12 years and it never failed (I saw the car and its owner this weekend and it still hasn't failed). Now, due to some clogging issues, it leaked a time or two. But it never failed to operate. If you don't like it, just leave it closed and never operate it. What difference does it make? If you can use it as a bargining chip, best of luck to you.

Last week I picked up a 2011 Golf TDI 6mt. It has 26k miles on it and is CPO.

I did a lot of research before and after buying the car. The TDI is *fantastic*. I get 46mpg and the 2nd and 3rd gear punch is just addictive! My tank is 14.5 gallons. I filled it up last week and am just under half with about 300 miles remaining until empty. The trip has 364 miles on it since I filled up.

One thing about the current series of TDI's. 1 of 2 things will go wrong with them. The HPFP (high pressure fuel pump) will fail. And it will fail in a fantastic way that sends metal bits both forwards and backwards in the fuel system. I've heard reports of repair costs ranging from $5-11k to replace the entire fuel system. Most are under warranty and 6 out of 10 times, VW will even cover this failure after the 60k warranty runs up (up to about 80k miles).

Secondly, I'm pretty sure the 2012's have a diesel particulate filter. My 11 does. Other diesels will use urea to help clean up the emissions. Anyway, the DPF will clog and require replacement. Not sure how expensive that is.

Thirdly, VW's clean diesels require VW Spec 507 oil. You don't just roll up to Wal*Mart to find this oil (at least in these parts anyway). If you let the stealer change your oil, you won't care about this. But if you go to a Jiffy Lube, demand that they show you the bottles of oil they'll be using and verify it has the 507 label on it.

Not trying to scare you away from TDI. Just want you to be informed going in. You may want to read up on the TDI Club's site as well as VWVortex.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the sunroof. All my cars have had one and none of them ever leaked or gave me any trouble. Negotiating on TDIs is tough as it is, they tend to hold their value over a comparable gas powered model.

I've been reading over at TDIClub... and the horror stories of failed turbos.

I usually do my own maintenance. Finding the oil will be the fun part. I have been reading that the Mobil 1 ESP is 507 compliant... Will have to see....

They are offering the car at $20,500, 11k miles. It is an TDI SE w/ 6spd manual, Fender audio system, Nav (I think), and the (ugh) sunroof.

*** Edit ***
Taking a guess and from reading, I believe the car is actually a TDI Comfortline w/ the added "Technology Package".

11k miles isn't too bad. The tech package is pretty pimpin' as things go.

IMO.
I'd buy a new car, that way you wont inherit unkown issues, like you would with a used car. I purchased a used Toyota truck one time. It had 75/85k miles on it, and cost me 16k.
Anyhow, I'm driving home from an Atlanta Knights hockey game [NHL seed team, before the Atlanta Thrashers]. The Knights left/shut down for the Thrashers, and [much to my surprise] the Thrashers have also left Atlanta.
Anyhow, I heard a "tinking" sound coming from the engine on my drive home, and a lose of power. I could only got about 15MPH, and I was on 285. I drove until I got to an exit and got off the highway.
The place I had it delivered to told me the timing chain broke and had taken out the lifters and rockers. That the engine needed to be rebuilt. They could do the work for about 2k, but offered no warranty. They also reman engine for 6k or a new engine for 10k. Of course we should replace the lifters and valves. The truck lasted just a week, before it throw a rod, killing the engine. So we ended up buying a new truck, plus having the payments we still owed added to the total of the new truck [in other words a 20k truck became a 25k truck].
Ever since then, we have only purchased new vehicles. Currently we are looking at replacing our 14, soon to be 15 year old caravan. We paid 24k for it, and at 14/15 years, feel we have gotten our moneys worth. My "new" truck is a 2005, and we hope to get 10 plus years out of it.

But I can understand going for a used vehicle, as they tend to be more affordable vs a new vehicle.
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Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.

I know what you mean about inheriting someone else's problems... Been there, broke that... have the old head gasket to prove it... LOL

I just thought it odd that he (the salesman) used a specific number, instead of a generalization.... "We're losing about $450 on it as it is."

I think I pissed them off though... My hatred for sunroofs is deep. I just don't like them. The salesman went into a "rant" of sorts, saying that the sunroof adds value at resale and blah blah. Yeah.. that's true... but I *don't* like sunroofs.... and I am not paying $400/mo for a car that I do not completely like. He then goes on to speak of "All he has done for me" to get *this* car, and to get my payments where I want them and a decent (for my credit, anyway) interest rate. Guilt doesn't work on me....

According to VW's website, the sunroof (and DSG trans, can't price out the sunroof separately), adds $2000 to a new car. So... I thought about talking to the guy tomorrow, and basically say "Look... You want to sell me the car? Fine... Knock another $1,000 off the car and we'll do business. If not, well then I guess we are done then." It's a win-win for me. They go for it, I get a cheaper payment... if not, then it's a message saying that car wasn't for me after all....
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"F is for Fire that burns down the whole town...
U is for Uranium...... Bombs...
N is for NO SURVIVORS!!!!!" Sheldon Plankton

Keep Calm and Carry On

Man, I hate shopping for cars. Well, not the test drives and such, but the negotiation part.

I just bought a new car myself (a '13 Cadillac SRX.) It was, by far, the most pleasant, easy transaction I've ever done.

My employer is a GM supplier, so I get prenegotiated pricing. It's fair. If I wheeled and dealed and played crazy hardball, I could probably get a little better price, but honestly, the supplier pricing is 'good enough' that we could cut it out.

The dealer was excellent - a good sales person, but not a slimeball. As he told me, he lets the car sell itself.

One the important things was that i brought my own financing with me. I had 1.9% financing in my back pocket from my credit union. That cuts all the negotiating and nonsense out. I ended up not using it (I used the dealer's 0% financing in lieu of a cash rebate - the difference was about $20 in my favor this way) but it was great to have and completely changed the conversation.

Now, I know you said your credit isn't perfect, but it might be worth checking with some banks to prearrange some financing ... see if you can bring in a better rate.

Check with a credit union - they seem to have excellent rates. I'm a member of DCU (www.dcu.org). I'm looking at their rate tool, and even "below average credit" 60-month loans are coming in at 5.49%. Top-tier credit is 1.99%.

You might be surprised; worth calling them if nothing else.

If you are not a car snob, just go buy a new Hyundai whatever model you want to afford. 10 year/100,000 mile warranty, well made and plenty of features if you want them.
I love VW/Audi's but no way in hell I would work on that beater of yours
Also TDi's, too much potential for high ticket maintenance items down the road, but the torque and mileage is addictive.

Well, I don't want a Hondo or a Subanu.... (Anyone get this reference? From a movie with Wilford Brimley.)

I wanted a TDI because the 2.5L motor is a dog, and the turbo and v6 motors are in higher priced vehicles. I'm not looking to win races, but I want some get up and go.

As for my 99... I bought it mostly to rebuild. Didn't know it was going to be this involved. (Done numerous head jobs before. Cakewalk.) Then there are the side items. Going to pull the head and check it out. If it's good, gonna slap it back on (with new gaskets and head bolts.), put the motor back together, and see how long I can drive it before it craps out. If the head is bad, I have a line on a reman head for $300. Put that on and continue on. Unless someone comes up and offers me a few hundred for the car.

Already had one of those "buy your car for cash" guys with a tow truck that would have made Fred Sanford proud... "I'll give ya $100 for it..." No... I can get $200 from the junkyard as it sits.....
--
"F is for Fire that burns down the whole town...
U is for Uranium...... Bombs...
N is for NO SURVIVORS!!!!!" Sheldon Plankton

Keep Calm and Carry On