Verizon DSL → [Wiring/Filter/Splitter] DSL Splitter/Home Run

(Move if wrong forum)

In an attempt to make sure my wiring is not my DSL margin issue, I am thinking about running a wire from my modem upstairs down to my basement where my inside demarc is.

Here is how my phone wiring is setup.

NID
 |
  Demarc*
   | | |
   | | |-> Phone Jack -> DSL Filter -> Phone
   | | 
   | |-> Phone Jack -> DSL Filter -> Phone
   |
   |-> Phone Jack -> splitter -> DSL Modem
                          |
                          |-> DSL Filter -> Phone
 

* Borrowing the photo but this is what I mean by demarc.
»thisishowweparty.com/img ··· arc1.jpg
My wires are the old Red/Green/Yellow/Black. Seems all 3 lines have the Yellow wire connected to the ground for some reason.

Anyway, what I was thinking about doing was installing a DSL Splitter like this.

Would it be possible to replace that old demarc with the DSL splitter, and then run a new line from the modem to it directly? I would like to avoid installing a patch panel because of space constraints. With the DSL splitter it can hang down somewhat from the mounting point.

So I decided to try this without the DSL Splitter. I ran a Cat5e directly to my NID, and sadly my download margin did not increase. (9.6-10.2 dB) My upload margin went from 10.0 to 15.0 which makes me think it helped somewhat.

For further testing, I physically moved my computer and modem down to my back porch right near my NID. When plugged in that close my margins are 16.0-17.0 down, 15.0-16.0 up.

I really don't understand whats going on with my wiring at this point. My download margin numbers a year ago with the modem in this exact spot were twice my current. Hell my margin was 23 back on the 11th.

Testing at the NID, with your inside wiring disconnected is the way to see your actual line stats. It wouldn't be surprising if the copper outside of your house is deteriorating.

The best wiring scenario is to have your DSL/POTS splitter in or right at the NID. Use your new CAT5e homerun from DSL side, and the old house wiring from the POTS side. You could then remove the individual filters.

Is your DSL losing sync or running slow?

I'm having sync/margin issues. Two weeks ago my download margin was in the 20's. Now I'm sitting at 6 or so. I did get a speed increase which drops margin, but this seems too large of a jump. I was running an old 3.1 package and got moved to their 7.0 package.

As for testing at my NID. I unplugged the RJ11 in the box and tested via that socket. ie: where they tell you to test at. I can't test there often, since it requires me to move my modem and pc downstairs onto my deck. I have 4 telephone jacks in my house now. All 4 give the same margins regardless of location. But the NID was showing better numbers, so I am confused.

I am working with tim_k atm, who increased my connection to my full speed to see if it could handle it. Hoping he can lower my speed until I become stable to see what my line can actually handle vs what Verizon told me. I'm more than likely going to have to call POTS support next week to check things out. I want to say something is wrong at the pole, based on all the wires hanging everywhere on it, but those could also be Comcast's wires.

Since you see a better signal at the NID, then it would point to the inside wiring or a bad filter. There's lightning protection circuitry in that old block that could possibly cause noise, or maybe just some dirt on it's terminals.

So back to the original question, yes, you could remove the old block and put your DSL/POTS splitter there. Just make sure the wire between the NID and splitter is in good shape.

If a tech does come out, see if you can get a newer NID with the splitter inside & homerun the the DSL right to the NID.

See that is where I'm lost. I ran a new cat5e from the NID to my modem. It never touches my old wiring setup except at the NID screws. The margins on that new line are exactly the same as the old line. The only thing I haven't done was completely disconnect the old stuff from the NID and just have the cat5. I'm wondering if it might be that module that is between my inside lines and where the outside line enters the box.

I need to come up with a reason for them to send a repair man for the POTS.

If you're able able to test with just the cat5e connected, (effectively the same as the modem on your porch) and do see improvement, then you've isolated noise to either the old wiring or something connected to it. The modem doesn't have to plug into the old wire to be effected by it..once the old stuff bridged to it, anything along the way could effect the line quality.

Ideally for the higher speed tiers your splitter should be in the NID or as close as to it as possible. This also eliminates the need for micro filters at each phone. The new cat5e goes on the DSL side, and all the old wiring on the POTS side.

You could try calling repair and tell them there's noise problems with your new faster DSL tier. Tell them the NID is very old and ask if they can install the new NID with the internal splitter.

Or, if you prefer to tackle it yourself, there's outdoor splitters available which you could put next to the existing NID. A dsl/pots splitter like TTI 3310 is $20-30 on ebay.

I've run this gambit before, but my problems here come from outside wiring issues.

Hope this helps--

I found roughly where my point of failure is at. I disconnected the old wires at the NID, so only my cat5 run was connected. Margins on modem upstairs matched the ones at the NID.

I tried to clean up my old connections, but it didn't help. Looks like I will have to run new wires in this old house somehow.

Try to isolate the problem by disconnecting the microfilters so there's no phones on the line. See if that helps the stats. If stats get better, plug them back in one at a time and check.

There still could be something else hanging on the line with the old wiring like that demarcation block. Here I found an old ringer was hidden inside a wall

It still would be best to put a splitter or filter at the NID so the DSL signal isn't feeding all the old wiring.

Yeah more than likely going to get a DSL splitter. I just don't know how much it will cost for Verizon to put one in my NID.

I have actually unplugged all phones+filters in my home with zero change. There are a couple things I can try to fix before I go with the splitter, but I don't foresee it helping much.

I need to add some more washers on the terminals, as there are not enough to split each wire up. Some wires are basically over top of each other. Thankfully my house has 2 of those demarc blocks so I can grab washers off of it. (2nd floor was an apartment long ago, so 2 demarcs) I also need to look into if you are suppose to connect each line to the ground point with the yellow/black wire. As things currently stand, the extra yellow wire in these old phone lines is connected to the ground terminal. And the ground terminals on both demarcs are connected as well.

So hard to find info on those old demarcs. Most sites just tell you to replace them with a punch down block, but I don't have the room/wire length to do that. Also can't run new wiring because of cable thickness.

Since you have disconnected all non-DSL devices a splitter/filter does not matter.

Sounds like you have a lot of telephone wiring. Double/triple check everything is really disconnected: fax, answering machine, computer modem, setop box, remote meters, home alarm.

If nothing is connected and wiring is still degrading DSL you may have a high resistance short either between pairs or to ground. Disconnect everything from the NID and use a multimeter to measure resistance between each pair wire and all other wires and each wire and ground. Should be infinite - many megohms.

A cleaner way to terminate lots of inside wire is to get a commoning block used in residential wiring panels or mount a 66-block. Once you have the wiring sorted out install a whole house POTS/DSL splitter. You don't need to mess around with the NID, install a standalone device.

Here is the splitter I use, actually I use a Corning/Siecor splitter but Corning got out of the splitter biz. This one is identical AFAIK.

»tiinetworktechnologies.c ··· 0108.pdf

/tom

I have a total of 4 lines in a star topology. 3 with the old quad phone wire connected to the old demarc, and the 4th is my new cat5e connected to the NID directly. Only phones/answering machine on the 3 old lines, and only my modem on the 4th

I have unplugged everything from the 3 lines with zero change on the cat5e run. Upon removing the wire connection between the NID and the old demarc, my margins on the cat5e increase. I even tested disconnecting 2 of the 3 lines from the old demarc and I still had low margin.

I used my 3DS to take 2 pictures of what it all looks like. Bad quality images, but it is all I have to work with. Cat5e cable can barely be seen passing under the unused demarc in the first image.

»imgur.com/a/XQiZi

If you see anything wrong here besides the lack of washers between each line on the posts, please tell me.

I do not have enough slack in these old phone lines to install a block. I am also unable to run new wiring because of how old the house is + wire thickness. I have no idea if these phone lines are a straight run or if they go through studs in the wall. The wire coming from the NID into the house also does not have much slack.

I would love to buy my own splitter, however, I am unable to find a seller locally. I do not use/trust ebay anymore because of past issues. I see one listed on Amazon for $34 which I would consider buying. But if Verizon can install a module in the NID for cheaper, why bother? Sadly they have informed me that installing one is up to the tech they would send out, and the cost wouldn't be determined until after the tech is here.

The pictures you posted is an old style carbon block protector. Do you actually have a modern NID - network Interface device or just carbon blocks?

If you have a NID try removing the element from the carbon block, the large screw and use them a junction boxes. If you do not have a NID ask the Telco to install one. Tell them you are adding wiring and need to be able to disconnect inside wiring. Carbon blocks tend to get noisy over the years. See what happens.

/tom

I do have a NID, however it is not grounded. My phone line comes in on the back left corner of my house to those demarcs, while my Electric comes in on the front right corner of the house. I was informed by the installer that having the old demarc as the ground would be fine.

I can remove the elements (I assume the round screw looking things at the top) but I'm worried about the lack of a ground on the NID.

Although now that I think about it, I don't believe those old demarcs are actually grounded.. For some reason I want to think that the ground wire goes out the wall then up to the 2nd story for some reason. I'd have to check tomorrow.

I just checked those old demarcs. They are not grounded, and judging by the condition of the wire, haven't been for 20+ years. There was a wire that ran from them around towards the front of the house, but it was cut and painted over. My electrical box has a wire going out the wall to some ground poles. I'm guessing I can run a ground wire over to my electrical box area, but unsure on how to tie it into that ground. It would also have to run the length and width of the house. (well over 20 feet)

I have read about grounding to copper water pipe, but the closest pipes to this area are the ones going to my hot water tank. If that isn't a problem I could connect it up on the other side of the bladder that is between my hot water tank and the water line in. Looking at my water pipe I see my electrical box was grounded to it at one time.

Since you have a NID the Carbon blocks are only acting at terminal blocks no need to ground them.

The NID not being grounded is a safety concern. Call repair and ask to have it corrected.

/tom

Your NID isn't grounded you have a valid reason for a service call. As Tom points out, it is a safety issue. The NID should be grounded to the posts where the electrical service is grounded.

Ask the tech if the NID can be changed to a newer style with integrated dsl/pots splitter. Explain that you have a new faster DSL tier and now experience noise issues that cause the dsl to lose sync. The NID belongs to Verizon so there shouldn't be any charge for work up to the NID. They upgraded mine no charge when fixing an outside wire issue.

From the NID on is your responsibility. Here in NY they charge $87.50 per 1/2 hr to work on inside wiring. A wire maintenance plan might save you money if you want a Verizon tech to clean up your all inside wiring & jacks.

If you still want to work on the inside wiring yourself, that old protector block can be cleaned up. i.e.
-Replace the old cable between the NID to the block with a new cat5e
-lift the yellow wires
-remove the carbon fuses under the large screws.

If you don't get an upgraded NID, that line that feeds the block is best split or filtered at the NID. If cost is an issue, Here's an example of using a cheap splitter right inside their NID. But,of course, the splitter mentioned above is better:

»youtu.be/hkQwjVyoIkI

Good luck & hope you get fixed up soon.

The problem here is the NID location. I can't move the NID to the other side of the house where my electrical grounding rods are. The only things possible are to run a grounding wire from the NID down the length of the house, then across the front width of the house to those rods. Or run a grounding wire through the basement, which would be roughly the same distance, as I would try to keep it away from other wiring. Neither seem to be the correct/safe way to do things.

I do see that there is an exception for old homes. Where you have to put a rod in within 5 feet of the NID, then run copper bonding conductor from it to the other grounding rods. The issue with this is the fact there are concrete sidewalks along 3 sides of my house, so I can't bury the wire, and putting in the grounding rod would require drilling through a spot in the sidewalk.

Funny thing about all of this. My phones have been ungrounded for at least 25 years, with the last 5 having the NID connected to the line.

Agree location is a problem - but it is not your problem it is the Telco's.

Running ground wire through the basement is not a big deal. Do you have copper plumbing? They may use that but there is always the risk someone will cut out a section and replace it with plastic destroying the ground.

/tom

Yes I have copper pipes. I've replaced quite a bit of it myself actually. I was under the impression if you ground to the cold water pipe you needed to do it near where it comes into the house. Does that still hold true? If it does then nothing would change as my water line comes in right under my electrical box. If not I could just run a ground wire myself out to the NID and have them connect it up. I would just have to run it to a spot on the pipe before my hot water tank.

I took a walk around the neighborhood today and noticed that most of the NID's on houses here are not grounded. Granted more than a few homes still did not have an NID on the house. Electrical lines come in from the front street, while phone/cable all come in from the alleyways.

The Telco cable should have a ground point