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Fir_Na_Tine
Giggity Giggity
Premium
join:2001-01-03
Sout Joisy

[Plumbing] Gas Water Heater

I'm in need a of a new gas water heater as mine is 15+ years old and lots of times only putting out luke warm water. I never done any preventive maintenance on it or anything. No leaks or anything just luke warm water a lot of the time.

A old friend of mine who installed my HVAC a few years ago offered to put a high efficient water heater in for me. I also asked if he could install a whole house humidifier to my HVAC system as the house gets very dry in winter. He said he could do it all for $2100 and that I could get a $500 rebate from the gas company for the HE water heater. I like the idea of a HE water heater because I could then at a later date tear down the chimney as the vent would go out the side of the house like the heater, leaving the chimney unnecessary. This would make some extra room in the kitchen and 2nd floor bedroom.

I'm thinking of doing the water heater only for now to save some $. And was wondering how hard is it to install a gas water heater? I thought about doing it myself but figure I might make it worse lol. My friend is better at this stuff and is a HVAC guy by trade.

Any thoughts on the price he quoted me? Anyone recommend brands for both water heater and Whole house Humidifier? I thought about tank less water heater and have read thru a lot threads here on them but it might be out of my price range.
--
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."
-Jimi Hendrix

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
Neil deGrasse Tyson



mityfowl
Premium
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX

[Plumbing] Re: Gas Water Heater

$500 rebate!

for what?

You better check that.


garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

1 recommendation

reply to Fir_Na_Tine

I know you want a new heater, but it's likely just a broken dip tube, a replacable part.



mityfowl
Premium
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX

15 years old and you say that!

Why?



mityfowl
Premium
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
reply to Fir_Na_Tine

nonsense



54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL
reply to mityfowl

said by mityfowl:

$500 rebate!

for what?

It is an incentive to go to a new high effiency heater, however in many cases the "rebate' is padded into the installation, as such it only makes sense to get a few quotes and compare prices.


ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
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reply to Fir_Na_Tine

said by Fir_Na_Tine:

Any thoughts on the price he quoted me? Anyone recommend brands for both water heater and Whole house Humidifier?

Since you're asking for specs, is he saying $2100 for labor alone? Labor costs vary regionally, and I'm guessing those costs are generally higher in the northeast.

The costs will also vary depending on what needs to be done in your situation, which none of us can determine from the information given.
--
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garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
reply to mityfowl

Just sayin; compare a dip tube $ to the kind of money being tossed around here. But, he wants a new heater and it's likely going to really need to be replaced "soon" anyway.



Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH
kudos:2
reply to Fir_Na_Tine

Take a picture of your existing water heater setup. It could be almost a matter of swapping the old one out for the new one. My old water heater was 20+ years old when it finally gave up... The piping to/from was all galvanized within 2 feet of the unit (and then tied into new copper !!).



tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium
join:2001-02-13
Carnegie, PA
kudos:5

2 edits
reply to Fir_Na_Tine

Dunno bout the rebates, but the price (total job, parts and labor) is pretty much in line with what I would quote for somethin like this..

An AO Smith Vertex 50 gallon, 76kbtu, 94% efficient tank goes for approx 1350+tax, humidifer about 75-100 (bypass), and parts+labor brings the rest to 1900-2300 depending on the complexity of install

What brand heater is he usin?

-j
--
if it aint broke, tweak it!!
currently on FiOS (kick aZZ!)



Fir_Na_Tine
Giggity Giggity
Premium
join:2001-01-03
Sout Joisy
reply to ArgMeMatey

said by ArgMeMatey:

said by Fir_Na_Tine:

Any thoughts on the price he quoted me? Anyone recommend brands for both water heater and Whole house Humidifier?

Since you're asking for specs, is he saying $2100 for labor alone? Labor costs vary regionally, and I'm guessing those costs are generally higher in the northeast.

The costs will also vary depending on what needs to be done in your situation, which none of us can determine from the information given.

$2100 is for everything labor, units and parts.
--
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."
-Jimi Hendrix

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
Neil deGrasse Tyson


Fir_Na_Tine
Giggity Giggity
Premium
join:2001-01-03
Sout Joisy
reply to Hall

Click for full size
Messy basement I know
Click for full size
said by Hall:

Take a picture of your existing water heater setup. It could be almost a matter of swapping the old one out for the new one. My old water heater was 20+ years old when it finally gave up... The piping to/from was all galvanized within 2 feet of the unit (and then tied into new copper !!).

I think I could do it myself but the vent needs fixing and we want the HE water heater to vent out the side of the house in order to do away with the chimney.
--
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."
-Jimi Hendrix

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
Neil deGrasse Tyson


Fir_Na_Tine
Giggity Giggity
Premium
join:2001-01-03
Sout Joisy
reply to tp0d

said by tp0d:

Dunno bout the rebates, but the price (total job, parts and labor) is pretty much in line with what I would quote for somethin like this..

An AO Smith Vertex 50 gallon, 76kbtu, 94% efficient tank goes for approx 1350+tax, humidifer about 75-100 (bypass), and parts+labor brings the rest to 1900-2300 depending on the complexity of install

What brand heater is he usin?

-j

Not sure of the brand water heater, I'll find out though. I thought the price was decent but just checking.
--
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."
-Jimi Hendrix

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
Neil deGrasse Tyson


Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH
kudos:2
reply to Fir_Na_Tine

said by Fir_Na_Tine:

I think I could do it myself but the vent needs fixing and we want the HE water heater to vent out the side of the house in order to do away with the chimney.

That could be the easiest part. I presume there's an outside wall where the washer and dryer are ? Run the vent out there - should be a short run.

It should be easy to swap out the water heater too. I would plan on using flexible copper from the shutoff(s) to the water heater in case things don't line up perfectly with the new unit.


ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
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reply to tp0d

said by tp0d:

An AO Smith Vertex 50 gallon, 76kbtu, 94% efficient tank

At risk of going off topic, page 19 of the manual indicates that the Vertex power venting system uses room air for combustion. In other words, it's not direct-vent sealed combustion.

When I think about room air being drawn out of the basement by the combustion blower, I think about cold air being drawn into the basement in the winter, and hot humid air being drawn in in the summer.

That makes me wonder if the Vertex's 94% efficiency will come at the expense of lowered overall house efficiency, compared to a direct vent or power vent heater drawing outside combustion air. Those may have a lower efficiency rating and also lower street price, but may improve the house's overall efficiency more than the Vertex. It starts getting tough to figure out how much it's worth spending, in order to save.

I didn't see any alternate configuration for using outside combustion air.

»www.hotwater.com/Resources/Liter···23-006)/
--
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tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium
join:2001-02-13
Carnegie, PA
kudos:5

said by ArgMeMatey:

said by tp0d:

An AO Smith Vertex 50 gallon, 76kbtu, 94% efficient tank

At risk of going off topic, page 19 of the manual indicates that the Vertex power venting system uses room air for combustion. In other words, it's not direct-vent sealed combustion.

When I think about room air being drawn out of the basement by the combustion blower, I think about cold air being drawn into the basement in the winter, and hot humid air being drawn in in the summer.

That makes me wonder if the Vertex's 94% efficiency will come at the expense of lowered overall house efficiency, compared to a direct vent or power vent heater drawing outside combustion air. Those may have a lower efficiency rating and also lower street price, but may improve the house's overall efficiency more than the Vertex. It starts getting tough to figure out how much it's worth spending, in order to save.

I didn't see any alternate configuration for using outside combustion air.

»www.hotwater.com/Resources/Liter···23-006)/

The Vertex 100 is a direct vent (2 pipe) heater, which raises its efficiency to 96%.. I was incorrect with my prev post, the Vertex is rated at 90%..

Found here:

»www.hotwater.com/water-heaters/r···nal/gas/

Ratio of direct vent water heaters to standard vent is around 10% direct, 90% standard, probably due to cost of the heater and extra pipe for installation. I prefer a direct vent for tankless because of interior dirt issues, not efficiency. Other than the Vertex 100 (pricey heater) I dont prefer direct vent tanks as their designs are flawed to keep them cheaper. The V100 is approx 1900$, but its a hell of a heater.

-j
--
if it aint broke, tweak it!!
currently on FiOS (kick aZZ!)


ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
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said by tp0d:

The Vertex 100 is a direct vent (2 pipe) heater, which raises its efficiency to 96%...

...I prefer a direct vent for tankless because of interior dirt issues, not efficiency. Other than the Vertex 100 (pricey heater) I dont prefer direct vent tanks as their designs are flawed to keep them cheaper. The V100 is approx 1900$, but its a hell of a heater.

Thanks for clarifying. It's worth noting that the AOSmith page includes a standard-vent heater with an energy factor of 0.70, and they're calling it high-efficiency. So 30% up the flue is still high efficiency.

What are the DV flaws to which you refer? I know the DV units are not necessarily that efficient, but I wonder what else is wrong with them.
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tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium
join:2001-02-13
Carnegie, PA
kudos:5

Energy factor is -not- efficiency..

»answers.yahoo.com/question/index···6AA8ZVxS

the cheaper dv units have a motley way of bringing the fresh air into the bottom of the heater, and can be prone to air leaks, are tough to service due to all the sheet metal, and are larger than a typical tank

-j
--
if it aint broke, tweak it!!
currently on FiOS (kick aZZ!)



cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27
reply to Fir_Na_Tine

Re: [Plumbing] Gas Water Heater

Click for full size
BradfordWhite 13yrs
Click for full size
WaterWaterEveryhare
OMG! You HAD TO POST THIS!!! WHY!!!!

(mine went this morning.. no hot water at all. And shutoff valve leaked as I tried to turn it off.)

Same model. Installed 11-10-00. So just about 13yrs old.

Getting it replaced tomorrow morning. Please do not post about a fridgerator dying!!


--
Splat


mityfowl
Premium
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
reply to Fir_Na_Tine

I got 13 years on my Bradford White with the 7 year warranty.



ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
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reply to tp0d

Re: [Plumbing] Re: Gas Water Heater

said by tp0d:

Energy factor is -not- efficiency..

the cheaper dv units have a motley way of bringing the fresh air into the bottom of the heater, and can be prone to air leaks, are tough to service due to all the sheet metal, and are larger than a typical tank

With an EF of 0.70, assuming the theoretical max is 1.00, to me that means about 0.30, or 30% of the BTUs are going up the flue or lost through standby. Judging by the table it seems clear that with solar and heat pump, the EF is over 1 because those systems capture "free" BTUs.

The "Step 2" chart here coincidentally lists a 13-year life cycle. Sorry, folks.
»www.aceee.org/consumer/water-heating

That chart also has a pretty good rundown of how little difference there is between many choices once you decide on your fuel.

Plus, to bolster my case that high efficiency means very little, conventional EF is 0.60 and high efficiency is 0.65, with an operating cost differential of $174 over the life cycle, or $13.38 per year.

So I could put in a conventional, order one less pizza each year and still come out ahead of putting in a high efficiency heater.

I am not a trade pro so I don't know what you mean by motley. My old SureShot has a coaxial feed on center that splits off to a separate intake pipe that runs vertically parallel to the tank to reach the burner chamber. Is that what you mean? It certainly seems far less efficient than the Vertex 100, which as you say looks like a great heater.

But as far as I can tell, considering life cycle cost is the only reasonable way to figure out the most reasonable confluence of efficiency, capital, and operating costs.
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kherr
Premium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL
reply to Fir_Na_Tine

Re: [Plumbing] Gas Water Heater

From the pics it looks like no one has ever heard about di-electric unions ( or unions for that matter) or ball valves ......



ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
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said by kherr:

From the pics it looks like no one has ever heard about di-electric unions ( or unions for that matter) or ball valves ......

Unions are overrated. Dielectric unions aren't the best use of your money. Ball valves, on the other hand, are well worth the premium in my book.

If you are transitioning from steel to copper and you are concerned about electrolysis, use 6" threaded brass nipples.
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Find your USNG coordinates:
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kherr
Premium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL
Reviews:
·Charter

In IL 'tis the law. Along with NO valves on the hot side ....

When I swapped out my 15+ year old W/H due to a flooded basement, popped the unions, swapped the threaded part to other unit and tightened 'em down. Piece of cake ... Different brand of heater too ... Vent fit the same, only had to mess with the gas, it missed by 1/2" on height.



cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27
reply to Fir_Na_Tine

Hey, I found out I also needed a thermal expansion tank. I was having too much pressure and after new HW heater replacement, next day found water leak. It was the blow off. And plumber explained hot water was going up the cold.
So far so good. Except the hit on the wallet.
--
Splat