 IanPremium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:2
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to darcilicious
Re: Windows 8.1 Ad with Start Button I have only been using Windows 8 for a couple weeks. Came with an OEM PC I bought. My take? If the OEM company offered me a downgrade to Windows 7, I'd pay $30 to do so. Or I'd just nuke the drive and put Linux on it, if I didn't use it to play games.
I just don't understand how a company like Microsoft, which would presumably contain many employees who USE Windows products, would decide to make a desktop interface behave like a tablet/phone interface. They aren't the same things, and there doesn't seem to me to be any good, or logical, reason to think that they should be the same. I don't expect my car to have the same interface as my lawnmower. Didn't anyone internally stand up and say "I really hate this."? And if so, why were they ignored? People have 20 years now of expecting desktop interfaces to behave a certain way. Why fix something that wasn't broken?
Someone gave me the advice to use Classic Shell and God mode. Good advice. Haven't needed to use the Metro interface for anything. I tried Metro here and there, but it just seemed counter-intuitive and ugly as hell.
But as an OS, it's fine. It does all the good things I want an OS to do. I can launch my programs. They run in a stable fashion. And it manages the storage and devices. In other words, under the hood it seems every bit as good as Windows 7 is.
In all the Mac V. Windows V. Linux wars of the past, I always thought it was a side issue. If you can run the applications you want, the underlying OS is just a bit of eye-candy to the user so long as the performance was there. Most of the time, I am not "using" the OS, I am in a browser, game, or application. But I guess continuing to market the whole "Windows" or "Mac" as an "experience" is necessary to continue to justify charging $100 per license.
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“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong |
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 OctaveanPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1 | reply to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:said by Octavean:....There may be a number of ways for Microsoft to address the issue of goodwill or their relationship with their customers but telling them to wait for the next release of Windows is essentially an empty promise until such time as they can deliver on it. Meanwhile it could do even more harm to current sales....
As I posted earlier : » Re: Windows 8.1 Ad with Start ButtonY'know folks, Windoze 8 may well be the best thing that ever happened to the Linux/Android OS. I am at a bit of a loss because I don't see any correlation between the quote and your post or the earlier post of yours that you've linked to.
I run the following OSes:
Windows 7
Windows 8 / 8.1 (no start menu replacement)
Windows Server 2012 Essentials (no start menu replacement)
OS X
iOS
WebOS (Linux)
Android (Linux).
I might add Linux as on OS for desktop / server but I have no intention of making a "switch". People don't always have full control of such things though. For example I know developers that were switched from XP to OS X by their employers (skipping Vista, Windows 7 and before the release of Windows 8). If your employer makes the switch to Drupal for example so too must the employees or they are out of a job. A lot of tech jobs are like that, learn and adapt or hit the bricks. Employers aren't likely to force Windows 8 / 8.1 on their employees but IMO they often require more drastic change in various different ways.
Linux seems to really take off when the end user is shielded from its inner machinations and doesn't really need to know anything about Linux itself,.....such as Android. Other then that Linux hasn't set the world on fire and its been around long enough that it should have done so long ago,...assuming it ever will.
To get to Server Manager in Windows Server 2012 Essentials I just:
Right click on the start screen icon in the lower left corner > click search > All Apps appear > Click Server Manager
I'm OK with this. I don't love it or hate it. I just see it as a simple tool that I can work with. Its not a Greek tragedy IMO,...the sky is not falling. |
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 DavesnothereNo-BHELL-ity DOES have its AdvantagesPremium
join:2009-06-15
START Today!
kudos:6 | reply to Octavean
said by Octavean:....There may be a number of ways for Microsoft to address the issue of goodwill or their relationship with their customers but telling them to wait for the next release of Windows is essentially an empty promise until such time as they can deliver on it. Meanwhile it could do even more harm to current sales....
As I posted earlier :
»Re: Windows 8.1 Ad with Start Button
Y'know folks, Windoze 8 may well be the best thing that ever happened to the Linux/Android OS.
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We have only 2 things about which to worry :
(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !
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START Forum »Start Communications |
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OctaveanPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1 | reply to lorennerol
Believe me, I will be very sorry to see Technet go.
If I were to guess I would think that the transition to a subscription model will make Microsoft software available for a limited time, say 30, 60 or 90 days before a subscription is required,... |
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| reply to Octavean
said by Octavean:There may be a number of ways for Microsoft to address the issue of goodwill or their relationship with their customers but telling them to wait for the next release of Windows is essentially an empty promise until such time as they can deliver on it. Let's also remember that they've killed TechNet and utterly gutted PSS, both of which were important tools for their 'partners'. In short, they don't want partners, they want captive renters. |
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Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
| reply to Octavean
said by Octavean:For personal use I'm fairly sure I don't want to conform to a subscription based model though so I am interested to see how far Microsoft is willing to push this. They've been trying to push this for years, even back in the XP alpha days when there was the idea that the kernel would be the local skeleton operating system and the rest of the operating system and applications would be 'downloaded as needed'. This was before anyone jumped on the cloud bandwagon or the term hadn't been made up yet.
I'm not sure if that idea was panned by critics or the world simply wasn't ready so I suppose this is them moving full steam ahead with the idea... but it seems the world may not be ready because it seems Office 365 hasn't met with expectations.
The ideology of subscription based computing is inline with many folks that direct accounts payable departments as they're more than happy to spend big bucks long term with recurring fees if it's less each year than a single one-shot payment that costs more that year and nothing the next. Or in other words, some companies don't mind blowing more money long term if it means having a lower yearly budget this year. I'm pretty sure that your average folks or SMB's don't care much for that model though... not sure which group provides more money to Microsoft, which I assume would motivate them more in one direction or the other. |
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OctaveanPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1 | reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:said by Octavean:Publicly asking their customers to wait for their next product (even if they truly move to an annual release schedule from a roughly three year cycle) would only give additional reason for sales to stagnate. I was looking at the larger picture concerning the Microsoft brand. Due to a combination of issues that go beyond simply Windows 8's contributory issues, there's a great many IT professionals, partners and VARs that have more Microsoft vitriol than I've heard in the past 20 years. It used to be Linux people that cursed Microsoft, now it seems that there might be one person in a room of technology people that have something positive to say about Microsoft at this point. There may be a number of ways for Microsoft to address the issue of goodwill or their relationship with their customers but telling them to wait for the next release of Windows is essentially an empty promise until such time as they can deliver on it. Meanwhile it could do even more harm to current sales.
said by urbanriot:said by Octavean:It would seem obvious at this point but I'll say it anyway,...
It was my understanding that the inclusion of the Start button in Windows 8.1 was to assist the truly clueless not to appease the disgruntled. You know, the type that have absolutely no idea of how to proceed without one.
No, sadly, the blind arrogance in running with such a foolish idea is obvious. The company's lost touch with their users to the point where they'd arrogantly attribute poor design to 'clueless users' or 'disgruntled users', when the issue ranges in complaints from advanced users that need or wanted so much more from Windows 7 and received so much less with Windows 8 / 2012 to the more simple users that would like to continue doing what they've done for the past 18 years. I don't know where those that embrace Windows 8 fit in since I've encountered so few of them, but I haven't met any competent IT people that have anything positive to say about the new ecosystem of Microsoft products. It was my understanding that Microsoft was losing ground in the server / enterprise market before the release of Windows 8 / Windows Server 2012.
If so then clearly non-Microsoft options were being taken advantage of more and more frequently. It would also make a lot of this fairly academic regardless of if Windows 8 were a carbon copy of the vaunted Windows 7 or if Windows 8 were exactly as it is now (and other analogous versions).
For personal use I'm fairly sure I don't want to conform to a subscription based model though so I am interested to see how far Microsoft is willing to push this. As far as I am concerned using Microsoft products typically requires one to swallow a bitter pill, which, I have said time and time again for years upon years now. |
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| reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:Due to a combination of issues that go beyond simply Windows 8's contributory issues, there's a great many IT professionals, partners and VARs that have more Microsoft vitriol than I've heard in the past 20 years. It used to be Linux people that cursed Microsoft, now it seems that there might be one person in a room of technology people that have something positive to say about Microsoft at this point. +1 I've been saying for a couple years that they succeed in spite of themselves, not because they are still excellent at what they do. And you can't continue to screw your customers and get away with it; at some point people decide they've had enough and it's about that time when viable alternatives tend to show up. MS' current push is to "you don't own a software license, you rent software from us and a place to store your documents in perpetuity". Adobe is pulling the same stunt with their Creative Cloud, effectively tripling the cost for most people to use their software. As soon as MS' Office and Windows cash cows start to fail, they will be in deep, deep trouble; it takes a lot of cash to prop up Bing and Xbox (each losing a BILLION/year), and to buy failing companies (Nokia).
I actually see and understand what they are trying to accomplish with the unified UI across PC, tablet, phone, and Xbox. I just think they should have given PC users a choice of interface, not cripple the desktop in an obvious effort to make Metro look less awful.
And let's not forget that during the Win8 beta days (or CTP or whatever you want to call it), they went out of their way to break/disable Start8 and ClassicShell. It was only after a huge outcry from testers that they removed the code that blocked the 3rd party Start button replacements. |
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 GlennAllenSunny with highs in the 80sPremium
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA
 ·Verizon FiOS
| reply to urbanriot
Well, if M$ continues with its current direction in Windows development**, it's entirely possible that the next Windows OS in many IT shops will be some flavor of Linux running Wine. I mean, Windows has always been about the applications more than the OS itself.
(**Yes, we can turn your business computer into the equivalent of a smartphone--crippled multiprocessing and all.) |
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Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
| reply to Octavean
said by Octavean:Publicly asking their customers to wait for their next product (even if they truly move to an annual release schedule from a roughly three year cycle) would only give additional reason for sales to stagnate. I was looking at the larger picture concerning the Microsoft brand. Due to a combination of issues that go beyond simply Windows 8's contributory issues, there's a great many IT professionals, partners and VARs that have more Microsoft vitriol than I've heard in the past 20 years. It used to be Linux people that cursed Microsoft, now it seems that there might be one person in a room of technology people that have something positive to say about Microsoft at this point.
said by Octavean:It would seem obvious at this point but I'll say it anyway,...
It was my understanding that the inclusion of the Start button in Windows 8.1 was to assist the truly clueless not to appease the disgruntled. You know, the type that have absolutely no idea of how to proceed without one.
No, sadly, the blind arrogance in running with such a foolish idea is obvious.
The company's lost touch with their users to the point where they'd arrogantly attribute poor design to 'clueless users' or 'disgruntled users', when the issue ranges in complaints from advanced users that need or wanted so much more from Windows 7 and received so much less with Windows 8 / 2012 to the more simple users that would like to continue doing what they've done for the past 18 years.
I don't know where those that embrace Windows 8 fit in since I've encountered so few of them, but I haven't met any competent IT people that have anything positive to say about the new ecosystem of Microsoft products. |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to computerman2
That's my point. Microsoft has an agenda and they are currently, and will continue, giving the middle finger to those who don't like their agenda. They won't let their agenda accommodate all because they think profit is only in henceforth going forward with Metro and getting rid of even laptops (and desktops are a dirty word for them now and in the future). EXCEPT for Enterprise clients. They will get everything some home users want. Desktop won't go away there but home users won't be able to buy Enterprise versions of future Windows.
You probably did adjust quickly to Metro. You are the type of person Microsoft has bet their company's future on. I don't think their gamble will get them where they want to be ...but possibly since they will continue what I want but not allow me to have it because I am an individual user not a corporation. It will be, as always, Enterprise that saves Microsoft...if it is savable.
But in the larger sense, Microsoft's future will depend on what the American public ultimately decides regarding NSA. You, obviously, are not interested in personal privacy and that is where the battle will be fought. If privacy wins, then all those crap Metro apps that are designed expressly to rob the user of all privacy (but look so luscious and enticing) will wither on the vine as will Microsoft. Microsoft has gambled that the American people are already so far gone into no privacy and lying to themselves that they are not living in a totalitarian nation now that Win 8 Metro, and smart phones, anything that can and will strip a person of all privacy will win because addiction is so very hard to give up.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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OctaveanPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1 | reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:In my eyes the whole thing is weird. With so much negative attention and with so many people criticizing the Windows 8 experience, you'd think they'd at least try to placate those critical with something like "those who like it, great! Those who don't, wait for Windows 9!" or something to that effect.
One would think that Microsoft would do whatever they can to increase sales of their current offering. Publicly asking their customers to wait for their next product (even if they truly move to an annual release schedule from a roughly three year cycle) would only give additional reason for sales to stagnate.
Its a tooth and nail type of thing IMO and I could see Microsoft give incentives / discounts for the next version of Windows specifically to Windows 8 / 8.1 users. Anything to bolster those numbers even at the bitter end,....before truly moving on to the next version.
It would seem obvious at this point but I'll say it anyway,...
It was my understanding that the inclusion of the Start button in Windows 8.1 was to assist the truly clueless not to appease the disgruntled. You know, the type that have absolutely no idea of how to proceed without one. |
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Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
| reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:But you don't really think Microsoft will make any changes the public wants in Windows 9 do you? Good point. If they didn't make a real effort to placate the majority of users with 8.1, what makes me think they're going to care about users with Windows 9? Bitter hope... |
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Reviews:
 ·AT&T Midwest
| reply to Mele20
I Myself don't have a Problem with Windows 8 Metro Side, I'm on the Metro Side 50 percent of the time, and other time 50 percent on Desktop, Snapping apps sometimes to the sides of monitor as well, Been Running Windows 8 Since October 26th 2012, Gonna upgrade to 8.1 first day of release.
I adjusted to Metro Start screen quickly on Desktop with Keyboard and Mouse, Perhaps reason why I adjusted to it was cause I was using Windows Phone with Metro elements even before Windows 8 came out. All In All different people adjust differently to things, But also have to face the fact really that Metro side isn't going away, more so it's the future for Windows products...
New Start button in 8.1 may come in handy though, despite had no trouble using the hidden one currently from Desktop mode anyways, Charms bars not a problem either |
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GlennAllenSunny with highs in the 80sPremium
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:...those who like it, great! Those who don't, wait for Windows 9! No need to wait for Win9. I think Win7 will be hanging on longer than XP. 
"WinHate got you down? WinHeaven to the rescue!" |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to urbanriot
But you don't really think Microsoft will make any changes the public wants in Windows 9 do you?
Why do you think the shareholders are now calling for Bill Gates to get out NOW not the gradual exit to reduce his shares until 2018 to zero...but they want him gone NOW. Not that it will make any difference.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
| reply to workablob
said by workablob:Oooh, we brought back the start button but the way WE want you to have it.
Facepalm. I'm surprised there hasn't been any Microsoft commentary concerning this type of discussion. When it was in beta, Start8 used to advertise how many downloads they had and people everywhere were insisting "this will be fixed by release", then it was released and practically everyone freaked out.
Our local technology stores (Best Buy and Future Shop) reported more computer returns than ever and employee friends reported many women were purchasing Apple computers solely because there were no Windows 7 laptops available or they just heard Windows 8 was awful.
So then Microsoft says "Here's a button!" and everyone groans. Mainstream news channels report how Microsoft didn't exactly give consumers what they wanted, some even suggesting that Microsoft's trying to snow job their clients, and off the beat news channels or comics like Penny Arcade are also face palming...
So you have all this negative attention directed at the interface and the only response that the millions of users receive is "here's a button", the sacking of Steven Sinofsky, the leaving of Steve Ballmer... but no comments concerning the Start Menu?
In my eyes the whole thing is weird. With so much negative attention and with so many people criticizing the Windows 8 experience, you'd think they'd at least try to placate those critical with something like "those who like it, great! Those who don't, wait for Windows 9!" or something to that effect. |
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Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to Freddy
said by Freddy:According to the video, the new Start button just takes one to the Start screen, and not to the traditional Start, not? ^THIS^
Watching MS fumble around is like watching the elderly eat.
Oooh, we brought back the start button but the way WE want you to have it.
Facepalm.
Blob
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I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night. |
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AsherNPremium
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON | reply to Steve Mehs
Because in a corporate environment, there is testing to be done, licensing to be considered and deployment to be scheduled. |
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GlennAllenSunny with highs in the 80sPremium
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA | reply to lorennerol
The "most relevant elements"... yep, what we used to call "plain text".
Microsoft: bringing you the best, darned DOS they can.  |
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| reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:I can't help but be agitated with "do more with less" when it feels like I'm doing less with less. Either they got it wrong or these simple design philosophies are a waste of breath when the majority of users require more granular attention to their computing ecosystem. That's (the link, not what you wrote) a typical pile of multisyllabic MS BS. The "invisible interface"?? Did they stop to ask if users are comfortable or want such a thing, or how they'd figure out how to use it?
And besides the obvious mumbo-jumbo, none of it means much anyway because once the marketing department gets their hands on MS products, they immediately start "monetizing" it. Which leads to...
"Create a clean and purposeful experience by leaving only the most relevant elements on screen so people can be immersed in the content."
Have they looked at the out-of-the-box Win8 screen? And presuming they have, how can anyone who is not legally blind say with a straight face that Win8 has left "only the most relevant elements on screen"? |
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GlennAllenSunny with highs in the 80sPremium
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA | reply to urbanriot
Instead of "either/or", I think it's more of a "both/and" situation. |
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Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
| reply to GlennAllen
I can't help but be agitated with "do more with less" when it feels like I'm doing less with less. Either they got it wrong or these simple design philosophies are a waste of breath when the majority of users require more granular attention to their computing ecosystem. |
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 Steve MehsGun Control Is Using A Steady HandPremium
join:2005-07-16 | reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:You are not making sense. If my posts bother you so much then put my posts on "ignore". Simple fix.
Marilyn, what exactly did BlitzenZeus post that doesn’t make sense? Seems pretty spot on to me… |
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 BlitzenZeusBurnt Out CynicPremium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3 | reply to signmeuptoo
While it won't help after the fact, you can make an entry for it before something goes bad.
»www.eightforums.com/tutorials/27···8-a.html
I agree, they screwed up with not being able to access safe mode. |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to BlitzenZeus
You are not making sense. If my posts bother you so much then put my posts on "ignore". Simple fix. |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to GlennAllen
I hadn't seen that. Thank you! It explains why Microsoft has become irrelevant and will probably disappear in the next ten years. Those design principles are a lot of gobbledegook that makes little sense. Number 4 is particularly incoherent and senseless. GUI is EVERYTHING because from the user's experience all flows from GUI. If the user doesn't like the GUI and is not allowed to fix it to their liking (without having to resort to third party programs they may have to purchase and that may or not work correctly all of the time) then the game is over before it began.
I don't know if it was intentional, but that website displayed in about 250% magnification when I went to it although Zoom said it was at 100%. I had to reduce zoom to 33% and it still was too big text.
If GUI is unacceptable and I can't fix it then why would I want a computer? I could get a device that just lets me LISTEN to web pages.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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 darciliciousCyber LibrarianPremium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:2
·Frontier FiOS
| reply to Msradell
said by Msradell:said by Jehu:Windows 8.1 is the best modern OS, complemented by it's lovely and useful Metro start menu. I hate using my windows 7 computer at work as I miss the 8 features.
I am a well-adjusted, open-minded, close to middle-aged adult who welcomes and adapts to smart changes.
I also prefer Bing to Google! it is well integrated with win 8. I must be crazy!!
You've deftly been drinking too much Microsoft Kool-Aid! Yes, it does seem he's deftly using Windows 8.1! 
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♬ Dragon of good fortune struggles with the trickster Fox ♬ |
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 MsradellP.E.Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
·AT&T U-Verse
1 edit | reply to Jehu
said by Jehu:Windows 8.1 is the best modern OS, complemented by it's lovely and useful Metro start menu. I hate using my windows 7 computer at work as I miss the 8 features.
I am a well-adjusted, open-minded, close to middle-aged adult who welcomes and adapts to smart changes.
I also prefer Bing to Google! it is well integrated with win 8. I must be crazy!!
You've definitely been drinking too much Microsoft Kool-Aid! |
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 signmeuptooThank you YankeesPremium
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle
kudos:5
·Comcast
·Optimum Online
| reply to Steve Mehs
Don't forget the other problem with Windows 8: Starting in safe mode without it first running in non safe mode to set it to do so. It proved impossilbe for me after changing video cards and I ended up hosing win8 after so many powerdown boot attempts, and went back to win7. The method to get 8 to boot into safe mode is impossible to do, it doesn't work.
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Join Teams Helix and Discovery. Rest in Peace, Leonard David Smith, my best friend, you are missed badly! Rest in peace, Pop, glad our last years were good. Please pray for Colin, he has ependymoma, a brain cancer, donate to a children's Hospital. |
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