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pende_tim
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join:2004-01-04
Andover, NJ
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[Electrical] Noticed Something Strange DW & Disposal Breaker

I was redoing the panel door labels on my electrical box today as they have faded a bit. While doing this I noticed that the Dishwasher and garbage disposal are feed from the same double pole 15A breaker.

Is this normal?
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hitachi369
Embrace Your Rights
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join:2001-10-03
Grand Rapids, MI
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I can't say it would be a big issue, neither are mission critical. And if you have no issues, I wouldn't worry about it.



leibold
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Sunnyvale, CA
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1 edit
reply to pende_tim

Sounds like a MWBC (shared neutral) was run for those two devices.

I don't know about normal, but certainly not unheard off.

Edit: agree that this is nothing to worry about.
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nunya
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:10
reply to pende_tim

It's normal. I usually run a 20A MWBC for the DW and Disp and use a 2P breaker.
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iknow_t

join:2012-05-03
reply to pende_tim

this clarifies it. "
Wgoodrich Visiting Guest

The following are Code reference numbers that you can seek in the NEC using the link that wirenuts provided. Also the following should give you a good shot as to requirements in a kitchen and some suggestions;

The kitchen, nook, pantry, and dining room receptacles must have 12 Ga. wiring. 210/11/C/1 All receptacles in the kitchen, nook, pantry, and dining rooms may be intermixed with each other, and are considered as the small appliance branch circuits. 210/52/B/1 Small appliance branch circuits include all general food use type receptacles in all of these food rooms, whether they are over a counter, or not 210/52/B/1 The refrigerator, or the devices that ignites of your gas range or cook top , or a clock receptacle may be installed on the small appliance branch circuits, without further load calculations. 210/52/B/1/exceptions No other outlets whether lighting, fixed appliances or anything in any other room may be installed on the same circuit with any receptacle located in the kitchen, nook, dining, or pantry. 210/52/2
You must have at least two small appliance branch circuits {serving the small appliance branch “use food type” receptacles}, available over the kitchen counters. 210/11/c/1 You may mix these small appliance branch “use food type” receptacles over the counter, with the small appliance branch “use food type” receptacles in the kitchen, nook, dining, and pantry that are not over the counters. 210/52/B/1
Keep in mind that the cook will probably not cook in the dining room, nook, or pantry, at the same time that they are cooking in the kitchen. This also, is expected to be the same scenario in the nook, dining, and pantry. 210/52/B/1 When they are serving in those rooms, they probably will not be using the receptacles in the kitchen, at the same time. The cook will most likely unplug the appliances in the kitchen and move them to the nook or dining room in order to make serving time more efficient.
The two small appliance branch circuits are left to the design of the electrician. Keep in mind that a cook will probably be cooking, centered tightly, in one certain area. I would like to advise that you might want to rotate these circuits in a wiring pattern such as every other receptacle on a different small appliance branch circuit. A example of this alternating style wiring would be the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th receptacle on circuit “A” and the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th receptacle on circuit “B”. This design would serve any tightly centered cooking arrangement centered over the kitchen counter with two separate small appliance branch circuits available, within reach, of the person cooking in one spot on the counter. This style of wiring of alternating receptacles on a circuit is not required by the Code, but should make good sense.. Remember that the NEC is the minimum safety standards required to be met. I doubt that I would want to wire my home just by the minimum, but that is your choice. You have to just meet the minimum safety standards set forth by the NEC. An example of wiring by the minimum safety standard which I would accept, but would not advise, are as follows. The Code implies that if you put all of the small appliance branch “use food type” receptacles in the kitchen, dining, nook, and pantry on one small appliance branch circuit, including the refrigerator and all of the receptacles over the kitchen counters, except one counter receptacle. Then if you put that one other receptacle over the kitchen counter on a second 20 amp circuit, creating the second 20 amp circuit as required, you would successfully meet the minimum safety standards. This style of designing the small appliance branch circuits would meet the minimum safety standard, but I would not advise this design.

THE FOLLOWING MUST NOT BE INSTALLED ON THE SMALL APPLIANCE BRANCH CIRCUITS;

Any fixed appliances, usually direct connected with a Romex connector, and / or any lighting, and / or anything in any other room, except the receptacles in the kitchen, nook, dining, and pantry as mentioned.

THE FOLLOWING ARE EXAMPLES NOT ALLOWED TO BE A PART OF THE SMALL APPLIANCE BRANCH CIRCUIT;

Dishwashers are not allowed to be installed on the small appliance branch circuits. Garbage disposals are not allowed to be installed on the small appliance branch circuits. Sink lights or any other type of lighting are not allowed to be installed on the small appliance branch circuits. The exhaust fan over the range is not allowed to be installed on the small appliance branch circuits. Any of the following; any permanently mounted appliances such as a trash compactor, microwave in a microwave cabinet, etc. are not allowed to be installed on the small appliance branch circuits. Remember that a small appliance branch circuit is any convenience receptacle, anywhere within a kitchen, nook, dining, or pantry. 210/52/B/1 Remember that you have a few exceptions allowed to be on the small appliance branch circuits and are as follows; the receptacle serving the devices that ignites range burners built into a gas range, a clock receptacle, and a refrigerator. 210/52/B/1 Remember that you can install a single circuit to serve the refrigerator, and dedicated as a refrigerator circuit, on a 15 amp dedicated circuit. 210/52/B/1/Exc.2
There is an exception allowing a switched receptacle from a general lighting circuit to be on a 15 amp circuit in the dining room. This receptacle is allowed to fulfill the requirement of a switch controlled lighting outlet, light fixture or switched receptacle, in the dining room. 210/70/A/1 and 210/52/B/1/Exc.1 This 15 amp receptacle used as a switched receptacle does not fulfill the requirements of the 6’/12’ rule requirement for the small appliance branch circuit in the dining room. 210/52/A A small appliance branch circuit must not be switched. 210/70/A/1

WE WILL NOW TALK ABOUT THE DEDICATED CIRCUITS.

Your garbage disposal pulls approximately 9.8 amps, and may be installed on a 15 amp rated circuit with other loads or as a dedicated circuit, even if found in a kitchen. This is true with this motorized fixed appliance, or any other motorized fixed appliance, even though it is found in the kitchen, or bathroom, or laundry, or anywhere else in the dwelling, as long as this motor type circuit does not include any small appliance branch circuit receptacles, laundry receptacles, or a dedicated bathroom receptacles circuit serving all the bathrooms. 210/23/A/ Exc. and 210/11/1,2&3 These same 15 amp rated circuits may possibly be on a circuit with other loads, such as lighting, just so long as they are not a small appliance branch circuit receptacle 210/23/A/ Exc. and 210/11/1,2,&3, and not the laundry receptacles, 210/23/A/ Exc. and 210/11/1,2,&3 and not dedicated bath receptacles circuit serving all of the bathrooms. 210/23/A/ Exc. and 210/11/1,2,&3 You can put any fixed appliance containing a motor on a 15 or 20 amp rated circuit with no other loads as long as this fixed appliance does not exceed a load of 80% of that 15 or 20 amp rated circuit, 210/23/A and 384/16/D and the conductor is rated at least 125% of the full load amps of the appliance. 430/22 You can put any fixed appliance containing a motor on a 15 or 20 amp rated circuit with other loads, on the same circuit as long as any one motor installed on that circuit does not exceed 50% of the total rated load of the circuit. 210/23/A
An example of motors and other loads could be as follows. You could install the range hood, or any other motorized appliance, on a general lighting branch circuit from a living room or bedroom, such as receptacles or lights in these habitable rooms, as long as that motor did not exceed the 50% maximum motorized appliance load for any one motor on that circuit, and did not mix receptacles in the kitchen, dining, pantry, laundry, or bathrooms, on the same circuit.
Your dishwasher pulls approximately 17 amps, and must be a dedicated circuit on a 20 amp rated circuit, because it exceeds the 50% maximum load of a motor on a circuit designed to be with other loads on that same circuit. 210/23/A There is a rule that allows the “Authority having Jurisdiction”, your Inspector to role two motors such as a garbage disposal and that dishwasher to be on the same circuit. It is called a non-coincidental load rule. This rule allows your Inspector to allow special consideration to a specialty circuit. I allow the garbage disposal and the dishwasher to be on the same circuit because the garbage disposal would not usually run long enough to affect the overcurrent device protecting that circuit. I feel that a garbage disposal would only normally run approximately 30 seconds. This would almost not be noticed at all. Please check with your “Authority having Jurisdiction” before utilizing this non-coincidental load rule. 220/21 and 430/24/Exception 1 and 430/22/B
Remember that a 10 Ga. conductor can be loaded to a maximum of 30 amps, a 12 Ga. conductor can be loaded to a maximum of 20 amps, a 14 Ga. conductor can be loaded to a maximum of 15 amps. 240/3/D The loading of the circuits in a dwelling may be rated at 100% for everything 220/3 but motor loads which are rated at 80%. 210/23/A or 50% load of any one motor on circuits with motors and other loads 210/23/A The “if specifically otherwise permitted” statement in the NEC refers to motors only. 240/3/E,F,&G If you are serving a motor, then you may use the chart in 310/16 allowing 20 amps on 14 Ga., 25 amps on 12 Ga. and 30 amps on 10 Ga. This is true with motors regardless of the temperature rating of the insulation of the conductor due to the terminal limitations of 60 degrees centigrade of the terminals used in the circuits, unless the conductor is rated over 100 amps. 110/14/C/1 If the conductor is rated over 100 amps then you may use the 75 degrees centigrade column because of the 75 degree rating of the larger 100 amp rated terminals. 110/14/C/1" »www.doityourself.com/forum/elect···nts.html



ArgMeMatey

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reply to pende_tim

said by pende_tim:

I was redoing the panel door labels on my electrical box today as they have faded a bit. ...
Is this normal?

No! It's normal for breakers to be completely unlabeled, or at best, labeled incorrectly. Check out OCD support groups in your area.


pende_tim
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Andover, NJ
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1 edit

Yea, I looked at a few but for most the phone numbers had no patterns in them, so they were off the list immediately. I tried calling a few others but no one answered before the first ring, so I gave up.....

Went back outside using the tooth brush on my driveway to clean off the dust. You would not believe the stuff I found in the expansion joints!! LOL
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