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Nitra
join:2011-09-15
Montreal

Nitra to camelot

Member

to camelot

Re: Bell Expands Its Consumer Monitoring and Profiling

I like the false information on CTV's page.
»montreal.ctvnews.ca/bell ··· .1508083

"Bell to start tracking customers' web history, TV viewing, unless they opt out"

"Customers can opt out of the data collection."

Of course, I expected nothing different, CTV is a Bell company.
camelot
join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON

camelot

Member

said by Nitra:

CTV is a Bell company

Yup. If you listen to the "Bell Media" radio stations (CFRB/CJAD in Montreal), they are also very positive about this. Their news stories sound like giant ads for Bell. Largely why I don't listen to them anymore.

Nitra
join:2011-09-15
Montreal

Nitra

Member

I've been listening, it's quite sickening.

Bell Hates U
@videotron.ca

Bell Hates U to Nitra

Anon

to Nitra
From the financial post (closed the tab before I could copy the url, so paraphrased)
Wade Oosterman, president of Bell Mobility and residential services, said in an interview Tuesday, that this is a value added service for their customers".

So you should all be glad that they are stealing all your private info for free. Guess they could charge you.

He also confirms no one can opt out of the data collection. Only the targeted ads.

Nitra
join:2011-09-15
Montreal

Nitra

Member

I only use Bell for FibeTV, I did call them yesterday and after speaking to 3 different layers of bullshit artists, made it very clear that if this was going ahead, my service would terminate Nov. 15.

I won't say there wasn't always some form of tracking, there's a reason I never use my carriers DNS servers, but this just takes it to a whole new level.

How exactly can they target ads anyway? Injection? That's about the only way, and that is a whole other can of worms on top of the tracking.

I'm also fairly sure this won't be allowed to happen in QC, at the very least we'd end up excluded from the collection, or at least, they'd not admit collection here.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to i LOLd

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to i LOLd
It gets better.......
»www.huffingtonpost.ca/20 ··· 512.html

Bell Canada: Our Customers Want To Be Tracked

“We’re actually doing something that consumers generally are in favour of and want,” Oosterman said. “We view it as a positive, value-added service for our subscribers.”


To me this smacks of a material change in the service - thereby justifying cancelling Bell services without penalties.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

Of course ... it's like offering "Would you like to be shot in the head or in the foot?" Of course most would prefer the foot.

They don't offer the choice of not being shot at all!

If you offer targeted ads vs general ads, of course people would prefer targeted ads.

They don't offer the choice of no ads at all!

I've seen this skewed logic used too many times to justify distasteful things.

sm5w2
Premium Member
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON

sm5w2 to i LOLd

Premium Member

to i LOLd
Nothing that a handful of HOSTS file entries can't solve.

That goes for google too.

pnjunction
Teksavvy Extreme
Premium Member
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON

pnjunction to sbrook

Premium Member

to sbrook
said by sbrook:

Of course ... it's like offering "Would you like to be shot in the head or in the foot?" Of course most would prefer the foot.

They don't offer the choice of not being shot at all!

If you offer targeted ads vs general ads, of course people would prefer targeted ads.

They don't offer the choice of no ads at all!

I've seen this skewed logic used too many times to justify distasteful things.

Bell is scum here but I feel I should clarify that the option of no ads is not Bell's responsibility. The ads that we see without this injection are put there by the websites and apps that we are using. Yes you can block them (and Bell could help, hah) but they are not the ones choosing to put ads in the first place.

What they are trying to do is effectively steal that ad space from the content providers who usually rely on those ads for most or all of their revenue. People are already paying Bell for internet access and it should be law that they don't interfere with it to steal revenue from other businesses using the internet to deliver their content.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

Oh were that actually true! There are ads on some sites that are predictable sizes and they can actually be simsubbed just as cable does on TV channels.

And there are ads that are actually added into sites at the top in the same manner that Rogers injects its "notifications"

No ads is a possibility ... that Bell and other ISPs don't want. Bell has a long history of drooling over the idea of portal service like AOL. When that didn't work, they tried the MSN partnership such that you had to see that page at least once by forcing IE homepages so you could get bombarded with those ads.

Advertising remains the goal for the big ISPs ... not providing an internet connection.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues to i LOLd

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to i LOLd
The privacy commissioner will investigate.

A spokesperson for the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada said that they will examine the changes to Bell’s use of information to ensure they comply with the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (PIPEDA). The office has issued privacy guidelines for online behavioural advertising and for opt-out consent.
“Our Office has received several complaints today with respect to the statement Bell has issued about customer profiling, online behavioural marketing and personal information,” spokesperson Scott Hutchinson said in an email. “We will be investigating.”

»www.theglobeandmail.com/ ··· 4984876/

MJB33
join:2012-01-29

MJB33

Member

canada's version of the 4th amendment is being violated... the bill of rights in canada.... or the charters of rights and freedoms
Dunlop
join:2011-07-13

Dunlop to i LOLd

Member

to i LOLd
scary,

I did not see a reason for a VPN before, now I am starting to

Any recommendations on a good (and cheap) one?

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by Dunlop:

Any recommendations on a good (and cheap) one?

Hotspot Shield works ok. But really, I think the best advice here is not to use any Bell products or services.

i LOLd
@64.118.81.x

i LOLd to Dunlop

Anon

to Dunlop
@Dunlop,

Encrypted tunnel with rotating input and exit IP's (ie. proxy chaining) that are used by thousands of people (used by thousands so that the exit IP is not associated to you and only you). Tor is an example of this, but Tor is just too slow. Ideally the input IP is in one country, the mix in another country, and the exit IP in another country. This way you don't have to really care about jurisdictions (for those who care about this type thing).

There are many out there, many of which are free.

And there are millions of proxies that can be used for free and you can learn to chain them yourself.

So since you asked, my preference is proxy-chains.

But there are simpler ones with only one IP and encrypted, which should be enough to obfuscate what you do online and for the purpose at hand. However, in a family of 4, as an example, Bell would see that one person in your household using an encrypted tunnel. So they will likely send those type ads geared towards security and protection to you.

As Bell stated, they will record age, gender, and the usage and whatever else. Pretty easy to pinpoint a certain person in a household. Wouldn't you say?

In all likelihood, Bell would be able to pinpoint which family member is using a proxy/vpn. Which is kind of the reason for profiling people, households, and families with what they are doing and capturing here.

But, one could always pay for something of better quality (ie. a paid for proxy/vpn chaining service) that you can apply to each PC in the house to force an entire household to encrypt and chain, then they likely wouldn't be able to pinpoint who is who.

For other services like Cell, IPTV, and regular TV? I don't see a way around this. Don't think there is a way.

It really is up to all the people to really push back against what Bell is doing at all levels of gov. Be it at Privcom, the CRTC, or the industry minister. Doing nothing will legitimize what Bell is doing and then no one in power (with the power to do anything) will give a damn.
NefCanuck
join:2007-06-26
Mississauga, ON

NefCanuck to i LOLd

Member

to i LOLd
Unless Bell agrees to reduce my internet service fees to compensate for the data that these "attack ads" (and that's what they are when they force them on you, attack ads) use up, I will continue to block each and every attempt to steal from my data allotment to show me this crap

The minute that Bell tries to stop me from doing that? I think Bell doesn't want to go there, because at *best* it would be a PR nightmare for them and at *worst* we're talking a lawsuit that would make them look *very* stupid.

NefCanuck

MJB33
join:2012-01-29

1 recommendation

MJB33

Member

CANCEL BELL!!!

sm5w2
Premium Member
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON

sm5w2 to i LOLd

Premium Member

to i LOLd
Whats the matter with you people?

Bell is going to contract out this monitoring to some third party. You avoid being monitored by simply using a NON-BELL DNS server in your TCP/IP settings, and if they try to insert some iFrames into your browsing experience you block those with your HOSTS file. Access to your HOSTS file on a windoze PC is trivial, and there are apps for editing the hosts file on android devices (at least my $100 polaroid tablet there is).

For those with iCrap devices - good luck. Enjoy your walled garden.

CHUKLESnLOLs
@coolhousing.net

CHUKLESnLOLs to NefCanuck

Anon

to NefCanuck
@NefCanuck, it's a lot more than attack ads.

@sm5w2, have a link that shows Bell is only using a 3rd party to track you? I believe you may be very mistaken here. Also, and once again, this is not just about ads and/or iframes and blocking via hosts files and using non-bell DSN servers. I think you have failed to see or read the extent of it all.

Though using an encrypted and "non-leaking DNS servers", as you stated, should be part of the end-users protection.

chitNgiggles
@fiberhub.net

chitNgiggles to i LOLd

Anon

to i LOLd
Videotron has made a press release:

Videotron does not sell its customers’ personal information to other companies
»corpo.videotron.com/site ··· ease/742
quote:
Montréal, October 23, 2013 – Videotron, a company that has maintained a relationship of trust with consumers for nearly 50 years, wishes to assure its customers that it does not sell the information it obtains about customers in the course of its activities to other companies. Videotron uses such information only for the purpose of providing customers with goods and services. Videotron is strongly committed to safeguarding its relationship with its customers.
However, Videotron does not state the extent of users personal info they capture and retain. Nor for how long.

We all know privacy sells. So it makes me wonder if this press release by Videotron will be enough to make people switch knowing that unlike Bell, Videotron will not sell off their personal info for financial gains.

sm5w2
Premium Member
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON

sm5w2 to CHUKLESnLOLs

Premium Member

to CHUKLESnLOLs
> have a link that shows Bell is only using a 3rd party to track you?

Who doesn't subcontract practically everything these days? Heck, bell contracted with Micro$haft years ago to provide sympatico email service. It's an absolute given that 100% of bell trying to monetize our browsing habbits will actually be carried out by some scum-of-the-earth web-metrics company, and as such should be easy to defeat by either using a non-bell DNS server or a few choice hosts-file entries.

grinsNgiggle
@anon-online.org

grinsNgiggle

Anon

@sm5w2, ah. k. So in other words you view of it it very myopic and you are basically just tossing words due to the lack of understanding and/or grasping of what they stated. In a nutshell you are stating what you think, based on what you understand/grasp, rather than what bell actually stated. You are stuck on web-metrics or someone else collecting data for bell.

Is that what Bell stated?

The answer to that is no.

Will bell sell your data to a web-metrics company?

The answer to that is yes. They will sell it to anyone. Not limited to web-metrics. Maybe Bell will strike a deal to have the data tabulated and pseudo-anonymised with them? Who knows. Once Bell collects all the data (which you fail to see is Bell collecting it and selling it), and once it leaves the country and crosses borders and what-not, who is to say what goes on and by who. Who is to say that Bell doesn't sell it to the government, police, RCMP, Harpers conservative party, CSIS?

Is it really just a web-metrics company collecting data for Bell?

Is only web-metrics involved here?

The answer to that is no, by Bell's own words.

You are profiled. Your kid is profiled. Your household is profiled. Your sexual preferences are profiled and for for sale.

You are for sale.

I think you failed to grasp what is really going on here, and what was stated by Bell.

The Privacy Commissioner of Canada in a news release stated they may not even tell us what they discover (much may even be hidden from us). They also stated their involvement is limited to the "handling" of all our personal info (they also told the Canadian population to stop contacting them because they don't want to hear from you).

Lots going on here. Lots at stake. More than your myopic view of it.

It won't stop at PrivCom, though what PrivCom states will be used to further anything.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook to i LOLd

Mod

to i LOLd
Videotron doesn't sell your personal information ... but let me guess, it does collect information to enable ad targeting. Data doesn't need to go to 3rd parties to be able to do that!

Pickles Bill
@videotron.ca

Pickles Bill

Anon

said by sbrook:

Videotron doesn't sell your personal information ... but let me guess, it does collect information to enable ad targeting. Data doesn't need to go to 3rd parties to be able to do that!

Good question.

What ad targeting does Videotron do?

Anyone know?

When this hits court, or the CRTC, which I have no doubts it will, Guess we will all find out.

Unless it is all #'s

But if that happens people will have to stand-up and tell the CRTC to show the #s.

sm5w2
Premium Member
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON

sm5w2 to grinsNgiggle

Premium Member

to grinsNgiggle
> You are stuck on web-metrics or someone else collecting data for bell.
> Is that what Bell stated? The answer to that is no.
> Will bell sell your data to a web-metrics company?

What data does Bell have?

Bell knows the billing name, address, phone number for what-ever service we get from them. Can (or has) Bell monetized that information? Probably it already has, years ago, and maybe it still does. Did we complain about that at the time?

If I have and use a bell.ca or sympatico email account, does Bell snoop or have access to email content, addresses that I send or receive email from? Wouldn't seem so, given that bell/sympatico email is not hosted by/on bell servers.

What does bell know of my internet activity? The most direct way for them to build a database of internet activity is via the DNS queries that come from my internet connection. They would know (broadly) if I use facebook or twitter, do online banking (and which bank), perform online purchasing (ebay, amazon, etc), consume media (cbc, network tv websites, netflix, itunes) etc. If I use a non-bell DNS server, presumably they would not be able know my web activity without employing an alternate (and more complicated / expensive) strategy.

Would they know the internal details of this activity? Not if the activity is happening via an encrypted connection. Would they *need* to know the details in order to monetize their data? I say no.

Would bell perform this DNS-based data collection themselves? Almost certainly not. They would contract this task (or sell this opportunity!) to a third party.

What is the most direct or lucrative way to monetize customer internet activity? To make advertising appear infront of their eyeballs. Can that be done while the customer is using a client such as skype, itunes, non-web-based-email, bit torrent, ftp, usenet? I don't see how.

Can bell (either directly or through a third-party) make advertising appear to the customer while using a web browser? Yes - although it can be tricky to do without the customer noticing or causing problems with website viewing. Can advertising-insertion into web-pages be blocked by users? Yes, through the use of hosts-file entries.

> Will bell sell your data to a web-metrics company?

Web-metrics companies don't buy data (at least that's not the business model of most of them). Their business model is to collect data - mostly by having additional code inserted into web pages of sites visited by users.
highwire
join:2013-08-27
Nepean, ON

highwire

Member

I'm not sure if sm5w2 is astroturfing, or just ignorant. Using deep packet inspection (DPI), Bell has the technology to snoop on every aspect of your unencrypted on-line activity. How do you think Bell was able to sniff out P2P traffic and throttle it a few years back? If you use unencrypted third-party DNS servers, they can still snoop it and build a profile. Most people are still using unencrypted POP3 e-mail, so they can collect the meta-data for that too, building a list of your contacts.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to sm5w2

Premium Member

to sm5w2
said by sm5w2:

For those with iCrap devices - good luck. Enjoy your walled garden.

Don't know about iToys (since I don't have one) but here's some hosts file documents for OS X.

»osxdaily.com/2012/08/07/ ··· ac-os-x/
»hints.macworld.com/artic ··· 62331512
»support.microsoft.com/kb/294437
MaynardKrebs

MaynardKrebs to highwire

Premium Member

to highwire
said by highwire:

Most people are still using unencrypted POP3 e-mail, so they can collect the meta-data for that too, building a list of your contacts.

Then all they'd see from me is mail to "assholes@bell.ca".
Still can't figure out why Cope or Bibic aren't responding to me.

sm5w2
Premium Member
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON

sm5w2 to highwire

Premium Member

to highwire
> I'm not sure if sm5w2 is astroturfing, or just ignorant.
> Using deep packet inspection (DPI), Bell has the technology
> to snoop on every aspect of your unencrypted on-line activity.

Bell is not CSIS or the NSA. For Bell, there must be a financial motive to perform such snooping, and there must be a direct, automated path between the material that is derived from such snooping and the packaging of a useful product that must come out the other end that has monetary value.

> How do you think Bell was able to sniff out P2P traffic
> and throttle it a few years back?

That was trivial to do, and Bell did it because THIRD PARTY equipment makers baked that ability into their network gear. For Bell, there was a financial motive for throttling or blocking specific types of protocals, and it was trivial to impliment and required almost no ongoing human intervention. For Bell to do derive any financial gain by doing dpi on the customer data transiting through their network would require a huge outlay in terms of building new data centers, hiring programmers, etc. The net monetary gain from such an effort would have to be balanced against the loss in terms of customers leaving Bell once an Ed-Snowden-type Bell employee comes forward and tells the world what Bell is doing.

> If you use unencrypted third-party DNS servers, they
> can still snoop it and build a profile.

I use a hosts file to block 99% of online advertising. I'm not the only one doing that - yet even google seems content to NOT undertake additional measures to find ways to put advertising in front of my eyeballs. I'm confident that just using an ordinary non-bell DNS server (like 4.2.2.2) would be enough to completely bypass the DNS-based data collection strategy that Bell is likely to deploy.

> Most people are still using unencrypted POP3 e-mail, so they
> can collect the meta-data for that too, building a list of your
> contacts.

Why then have we not seen unsolicited e-mail advertising campaigns from legit retailers that could be traced to Bell picking out and selling e-mail addresses via network snooping?

Legit retailers with brand-identities to protect know that it's the kiss-of-death to send e-mail spam. So again, Bell knows that there is very little commercial value in collecting e-mail addresses via DPI.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

Or a prospective monetary value. And history says they WANT desperately to monetize your internet experience and will stop at nothing to do it.

Collecting email addresses isn't for the addresses themselves. It's to see whether you get email from computer manufacturers, so they know you are interested in Computers ... so ads from computer manufacturers can be plopped in your web browser.

Google does this all the time. Search for something to purchase on google and you get target ads in other google searches.