dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
7555
share rss forum feed

bsangs

join:2002-08-21
Montclair, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

Rumorville Warning - 12 tuner FiOS DVR in the pipeline?!

So went to my local FiOS store yesterday to exchange an STB and talked with one of the reps for a little while as we waited for the order to go through. I pressed him on what the hold up was with the new DVR/Media Server platform.

The bullet points, according to him:

-- They've been told the new DVRs will begin in Dec., with an aggressive marketing push;
-- The new DVRs will be "like an AppleTV," "you'll have to buy it," and "it won't be cheap;"
-- The new DVRs will have 12 tuners and use the cloud to store recordings;
-- The new DVRs will not be compatible with the old models;
-- I shouldn't expect the new DVRs to be readily available from the get-go in NJ (which is of no surprise at all to me).
-- It didn't sound as if it would be a new customer promotion only.

So take that all with a grain of salt - as I did - but I just couldn't pass on the opportunity to share that information with the FiOS crowd here. Enjoy.


matcarl
Premium
join:2007-03-09
Franklin Square, NY
I doubt they would make you buy it. If you left Verizon, you would be stuck with boxes you could never use and they would never want their equipment unaccounted for. The twelve tuners also sounds way too far fetched.

bsangs

join:2002-08-21
Montclair, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by matcarl:

I doubt they would make you buy it. If you left Verizon, you would be stuck with boxes you could never use and they would never want their equipment unaccounted for. The twelve tuners also sounds way too far fetched.

Oh make no mistake, I doubt a lot of it too. But you can't blame a guy for sharing, can you?

bushleaguer

join:2007-01-22
Gillette, NJ
reply to bsangs
Thanks for the info, bsangs....sounds interesting.

I had to replace my old router with their new one due to a compatibility issue with a new wireless printer. Long story short, I had to pay a $75 one-time fee for the upgrade but I also found out during the process at the FIOS store that the new router I was getting was being given to new customers at no cost to them.

Who knows when this will appear or how it will work, but it will be interesting to see how they deal with new and existing customers in regards to any additional cost for the DVR (I'd imagine the monthly rental fee will be higher (than what we're paying now).

flashcore

join:2007-01-23
united state
reply to bsangs
I could see the 12 tuners being correct but with some restrictions and I do take this one with a large grain of salt.

In one case I do not see you being able to use all 12 tuners to record 12 things at once, more likely it will be limited to 6 recordings with the other 6 reserved for remote boxes to watch live TV. This corrects the biggest complaint I had with the whole 6 tuner system they were showing off before and also the issues with a standard hard drive not being able to keep up with 12 HD streams recording at one time (I have a 15K RPM 1TB SAS drive on my media center PC and even it has a hard time keeping up with 6 HD shows at once).

I also agree with matcarl that this will not be something you will buy but it will be something you rent at a higher cost then the existing boxes, but with 12 tuners it may be reasonable for say $30-40/m for the DVR with each remote box being $3-5 a month, anything more will just turn people off.

Onto the Cloud recording, what is the point of 12 tuners if the DVR is in the Cloud, you could do away half the tuners and just use IP to stream the content like their VOD not needing a tuner at all. It will be interesting to see how Verizon handles Cloud DVR in the future but if it is anything like there VOD the FF and RW functions will be slow and a lot less accurate then having the content locally and you may loose the ability to skip several seconds at a time.

I also have to wonder how this will effect people like myself who don't use the crappy router they provide, I have noticed a lot more IGMP traffic getting blocked in my firewalls logs lately so I suspect they are testing something along the lines of a Cloud DVR but I have yet to be able to grab onto the signal to see what exactly it is.

And lastly, I can see the December date being reasonable if you are talking December 2014, there is no way they will make it before that based on there previous failures to keep any kind of schedule.


aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA

4 edits
reply to bsangs
For 12 tuners they would need to use two cable cards in the box.

12 tuners seems a bit far fetched especially with the low capacity hard drives they use.

With my Roamio pro and six tuners I have 3TB and that is not enough storage space.

said by flashcore See Profile...This corrects the biggest complaint I had with the whole 6 tuner system they were showing off before and also the issues with a standard hard drive not being able to keep up with 12 HD streams recording at one time (I have a 15K RPM 1TB SAS drive on my media center PC and even it has a hard time keeping up with 6 HD shows at once).
....

As far as having problems keeping up with six shows recording, you have some issue with your PC setup. The current DVR drives are rated for at least 12 concurrent HD streams and that is from the lower rpm drives(sub 6k rpm). The 7200 rpm DVR drives can stream even more concurrent HD streams. Besides an HD stream is very low bandwitdth. It's only around 19Mb/s max.

The HTPCs I used back in 2004 had no issues streaming/recording six concurrent HD streams with slow 5400 rpm drives. So with a 15K rpm hard drive you should have no problem. You have some other issues if your PC can't handle six concurrent HD streams.

My TiVo Romaio has a WD 3TB drive(low rpms). It has zero issues recording six shows while four other shows are watched/streamed. All this being done concurrently.
And it can handle even more concurrent HD streams than that.


bull3964

@208.40.147.x
reply to bsangs
12 tuners MIGHT make sense if they are approaching this as a server/client model. So, you install this DVR somewhere in your house, but it doesn't actually connect to the TV. You then have smaller client boxes that stream from the DVR on all your TVs. They need to have a sufficiently high enough tuner count so that they would be able to satisfy live tv requirements to a full house of TVs and still have tuners leftover to record.

Cloud storage might be incomplete info, what if it's cloud mirrored storage? Basically, they end up recording at a datacenter what their users record (a lot of dedup happening here since many people will end up recording the same thing.) The advantage to that is when they finally launch DVR streaming outside of the house, the stream would be coming from the datacenter and not from the household which alleviates traffic concerns on the local level.

ansky

join:2009-05-18
West Orange, NJ
reply to bsangs
Maybe instead of buying, what he may have meant was something like the lease fee that Directv charges. You pay $300 upfront for the unit but you still have to pay a monthly fee. You don't own the box so it's basically $300 out the window just to use the box.

bsangs

join:2002-08-21
Montclair, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by ansky:

Maybe instead of buying, what he may have meant was something like the lease fee that Directv charges. You pay $300 upfront for the unit but you still have to pay a monthly fee. You don't own the box so it's basically $300 out the window just to use the box.

That's exactly what I was thinking at the time.


aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
reply to bull3964
said by bull3964 :

12 tuners MIGHT make sense if they are approaching this as a server/client model. So, you install this DVR somewhere in your house, but it doesn't actually connect to the TV. You then have smaller client boxes that stream from the DVR on all your TVs. They need to have a sufficiently high enough tuner count so that they would be able to satisfy live tv requirements to a full house of TVs and still have tuners leftover to record.

Cloud storage might be incomplete info, what if it's cloud mirrored storage? Basically, they end up recording at a datacenter what their users record (a lot of dedup happening here since many people will end up recording the same thing.) The advantage to that is when they finally launch DVR streaming outside of the house, the stream would be coming from the datacenter and not from the household which alleviates traffic concerns on the local level.

For cloud storage they have to have an individual recording for each user. They can't use one recording for multiple people.

brutus

join:2003-12-16
Tampa, FL
reply to matcarl
said by matcarl:

I doubt they would make you buy it.

They could do a lease to own option. From listening to the Engadget HD podcast this week, I guess that is how Google handles their set top box for Google TV. The advantage of doing this is I guess it gets them around the licensing restrictions of having services like Netflix on the same box as VOD when offered from a cable company.


MeatChicken

join:2007-08-15
Paramus, NJ
kudos:1
reply to bsangs
The only hardware that is 'supposed to arrive' within the next 60 days or so is the lomg announced 6 tuner Media center DVR w/ it's matching remote TV boxes ...
Perhaps they may have upgraded the Media Center tuner from 6 to 12 ( & yet no one has known about it or mentioned it anywhere, except this one salesman in a local VZ store??), but it is doubtful ..
I wouldn't be surprised if he is simply mis-informed, & is most likley mixing up & blending the 30-60 day launch of the VZ Media Center, with rumors of future technologies, & some of his own assumptions based on what Tivo, & Cablevision in the area currently offers ( 10 Tuner "cloud" recording that doesn't effect box tuner(s) ...


nascar

join:2000-02-28
Verona, NJ
kudos:3
Just because it isn't mentioned... does not make it false...

Those that know... Can't say

said by MeatChicken:

The only hardware that is 'supposed to arrive' within the next 60 days or so is the lomg announced 6 tuner Media center DVR w/ it's matching remote TV boxes ...
Perhaps they may have upgraded the Media Center tuner from 6 to 12 ( & yet no one has known about it or mentioned it anywhere, except this one salesman in a local VZ store??), but it is doubtful ..
I wouldn't be surprised if he is simply mis-informed, & is most likley mixing up & blending the 30-60 day launch of the VZ Media Center, with rumors of future technologies, & some of his own assumptions based on what Tivo, & Cablevision in the area currently offers ( 10 Tuner "cloud" recording that doesn't effect box tuner(s) ...


bsangs

join:2002-08-21
Montclair, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by nascar:

Just because it isn't mentioned... does not make it false...

Those that know... Can't say

And now it's a party people.


bull3964

@208.40.147.x
reply to aaronwt
said by aaronwt:

For cloud storage they have to have an individual recording for each user. They can't use one recording for multiple people.

Tricky legal area. Most enterprise storage subsystems use block level dedup below the filesystem level. Each customer WOULD have their own file and recording, but that doesn't' mean that the storage subsystem is going to store duplicates of all that data. It's similar to compression in that respect.

Consider someone recording from 10:15am to 10:45am on a channel and someone recording from 10:30am to 11:00am on the same channel. Each file is unique, each recording is unique, but at the block level the storage is only going to store one copy of the data between 10:30-10:45.

Consider a unique file stored per recording for two people recording two things at the point in time it's recorded and then having a maintenance pass dedup blocks of those recordings up with blocks of other recordings. The concept of file is stored at the filesystem level only. The storage controller abstracts what's actually stored physically.

This particular wrinkle hasn't been challenged in court yet, but it would be exceedingly hard to argue public performance from the way data is stored below the filesystem level. This would also likely drag the storage vendor into the legal battle as dedup algorithms are proprietary trade secrets among storage vendors that the MSO wouldn't even be privy to.


marhil0

join:2008-10-21
Exton, PA
reply to bsangs
Find it hard to believe that VZ would roll out new boxes in Dec. with the upcoming holidays looming.


MeatChicken

join:2007-08-15
Paramus, NJ
kudos:1
reply to bsangs
Well, I actually hope they do either 'leapfrog', or have something in addition to the 6 tuner Media DVR, w/ a Cloud based storage system ...
From speaking to someone w/ Cblvsn, they love their "record 10 shows at once" while simultanouesly watching whatever you want on any box" functionality, & it's priced similar to VZ's current "regular" DVR...
It would seem VZ needs this now, not in 12, 24 or more months ...



TitusTroy

join:2009-06-18
New York, NY
reply to bsangs
who on earth records 10-12 programs at the same time...talk about overkill...

johnmax

join:2009-04-11
Islip Terrace, NY
said by TitusTroy:

who on earth records 10-12 programs at the same time...talk about overkill...

The same people that need to record hundreds of hours on their DVRs and complain about how they don't have enough space. I don't get that either. Who has time to watch all that stuff? Get a hobby or job or go enjoy the fresh air. A family of 5 shouldn't need more than what we have with our current setup.


Sixto
Premium
join:2005-09-16
Northeast
reply to bsangs
VMS is 6 tuners. You can only have a maximum of 2.

2*6=12.

That's where he got the 12.


MeatChicken

join:2007-08-15
Paramus, NJ
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to johnmax
said by johnmax:

said by TitusTroy:

who on earth records 10-12 programs at the same time...talk about overkill...

The same people that need to record hundreds of hours on their DVRs and complain about how they don't have enough space. I don't get that either. Who has time to watch all that stuff? Get a hobby or job or go enjoy the fresh air. A family of 5 shouldn't need more than what we have with our current setup.

Keep an open mind ... People always tend to ("but shouldn't"), simply decide that whatever suits "them" should be or is the norm for "everybody", & no other choice makes sense ..
There's, for example, always that "single guy" that's never home in primetime, watches nothing live, records everthing to watch timeshifted later, & "therefore" posts how "no one" ever needs tuners or features regarding live viewing ..
Or the guy that thinks a Family of 5, with 4 or 5 TV's in the house, including bedrooms, can get by with the current 2 tuner DVR or pay the fees for more DVR's, " because all other families of 5 ", of course, are always busy stamp collecting, power walking & doing needlepoint like his, & have no need for more ..
For example, take Thursday Primetime in a household with 3 to 5 people:
Just on the major networks:
Some may want the entire 8-11 CBS lineup From Big Bang thru 2&half Men & Elementary.
Over on NBC Someone wants the Michael J Fox show, & Parks & Rec...
Other Networks have Glee, Grey Anatomy, X factor & CW shows ... All High rated shows, all in the same conflicting time slots, & that's without mentioning virtually Any cable, sports or news shows .. Project Runway, Pawn Stars & a slew of other high rated shows ... ( no mention of non popular shows, because, of course, "no one" ever needs to record something that's not popular or well known )
.. & It's not unrerasonable that one or more family members may want to channel surf live, watch news or check out a new show while recording ..
Not everthing is on demand, & often when it is, FF is slow or disabled, & skip forward is a dead button ..
If 10 or 12 tuners really means 5 or 7 to record if some arefor live viewing ....
It's just the right amount for many people ... & those that only need 1 or 2 tuners don't lose anything, & certainly don't need to post that technology should stagnate at the current level for everyone, because it's all that "they" currently need ... ...

bushleaguer

join:2007-01-22
Gillette, NJ
reply to johnmax
said by johnmax:

said by TitusTroy:

who on earth records 10-12 programs at the same time...talk about overkill...

The same people that need to record hundreds of hours on their DVRs and complain about how they don't have enough space. I don't get that either. Who has time to watch all that stuff? Get a hobby or job or go enjoy the fresh air. A family of 5 shouldn't need more than what we have with our current setup.

My family is like that but not to that degree.....they'll record a bunch of stuff but never watch it and end up deleting it. But they have to record it....God forbid if it goes unrecorded. I get by recording a few shows and a movie to watch sometime in the future.

ansky

join:2009-05-18
West Orange, NJ
said by bushleaguer:

My family is like that but not to that degree.....they'll record a bunch of stuff but never watch it and end up deleting it. But they have to record it....God forbid if it goes unrecorded. I get by recording a few shows and a movie to watch sometime in the future.

Also, people record stuff and save it forever. I was at a friend's house and he put on a show that he had recorded 2-3 years ago. When you never delete stuff that's how people run out of storage.

JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
Downingtown, PA
kudos:4
reply to MeatChicken
That's true, but remember that companies make decisions based on the economics of the product. It doesn't matter if the product in question is the greatest thing since the dawn of time, if consumers don't want it (for the price) then it won't be offered. Also, the price in question has to be such that a company is able to turn a profit on the item (which generally happens with high demand - the whole mass-production/mass-consumption thing). No mass-consumption... no profitability... no profitability, no product. As a result, these companies tend to offer products that appeal to the largest swath of consumers possible. All that being said, the market is definitely there for a home media server. Verizon needs to get off the pot and get the VMS out the door already. Do they need a 12-tuner DVR? No, they don't. It's serious over-kill for a vast majority of their customers. But they do need something to compete with products like the Genie.

billhere

join:2011-10-21
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·GoDaddy Hosting
There's just two of us here and one DVR with two tuners suits us fine. The only time we're recording two programs at once is Sunday night at 9 pm when I record Homeland and The Good Wife. If push came to shove I could record Homeland at another time or watch both programs on VOD. I can agree that a larger family may need more tuners. I can't believe it's taken almost a year (or more, depending on when it's actually shipped) for Verizon to actually produce the six-tuner device after its initial announcement.

bsangs

join:2002-08-21
Montclair, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
It's the whole "horses for courses" argument in the end.

However, as a FiOS and DirecTV subscriber, the 5-tuner DirecTV Genie is really a "set-it and forget it" DVR. You can pad your recordings to your heart's content and never worry about a conflict. In this day and age of networks extending their allotted show times from 1-2 minutes before or after the hour - some even more, like FX - that's huge.

We happen to watch several shows that are either on at the same time, or that overlap one another. The Genie is so seamless in these situations. I don't need 12 tuners from FiOS, but would love at least five.

Timothy28

join:2006-05-13
Lewisville, TX
reply to MeatChicken
This is the situation in my house. We watch so many shows Thursday its impossible for me to record them all. We like to record everything so we don't have to sit through commercials. But Thursday 8-9 i just can't record everything that is watched by everyone in the house. I have the same issue on Sunday causing me to have to record the replay of walking dead and not record something at 8 on Sundays when The Amazing Race starts at 7:30 due to football. Just one extra tuner would solve all my problems.


miataman

join:2010-10-27
Chelmsford, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
I wonder if anyone at VZ has ever considered a "cost per tuner" pricing model. Say, $10 per tuner, minimum of 3. or even 2 on lower packages. I'd go for 4, but not more, and that's $ 10 extra they'd capture.
--
Miata with a GPS? Surely an oxymoron


wmcbrine
213 251 145 96

join:2002-12-30
Laurel, MD
kudos:1
reply to bsangs
Kinda sounds like he was just stringing together a bunch of buzzwords.

I guess six tuners were no longer enough for their vaporware DVR, since TiVo came out with a real six-tuner DVR.
--
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


Jedilord

@verizon.net
Was at a store in Brandon, fl and the manager was telling me about this as well.
He mentioned they were going to do 6 launching this month but delayed for 12 tuners because everyone has 6 now (dtv, dish, etc). Also it was wireless, no coax. So server somewhere and smaller boxes by tvs. I'm assuming widi or that new wifi like networking (40ghz stuff) - pretty sure it's not wifi n or even ac.
He also said it would have "20,000 gigs" of storage...which led me to believe cloud, but cloud storage seems so stupid for a DVR system.
Hopefully they stick with a 4tb drive and call it a day. Though I can see where cloud would be nice as far as keeping it all in sync...and if your box dies, still maintain your shows.

At the end of the day, it's cool but verizon will charge a shit load for it, which makes it suck.