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ccobb123

@comcast.net

Backhaul for ~800 devices

I am in the planning stages of starting a WISP at my cabin in rural Washington. I have all of my equipment planned out but, I need to know how much backhaul bandwidth I should purchase. I would like to provide ~800 devices with 50 mbps speeds. I can get up to 1Gbps via fiber through Frontier Communications. What would you recommend?



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8

As little as possible. Most providers have scalable packages so pick the smallest one to start and bump it up as you need to.



ccobb123

@mycingular.net

About how much do you think I should buy to start out?



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8

I doubt that you'll start off on Monday with no customers and have 800 deployed on Tuesday.

Start with a 50 or 100 package and move up from there.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to ccobb123

You want to supply 50 mbps to each customer?


LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to John Galt

said by John Galt:

Start with a 50 or 100 package and move up from there.

+1
At a 25:1 contention ratio, that should be good for 25 to 50 subs.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey


ccobb123

@comcast.net

Ok. I'll see what Frontier will offer me. My only competition is Frontier DSL and they only have speeds up to 7mbps. One more question. I plan on using Ubiquiti gear for the antennas and for backhaul from the smaller antenna locations to the main tower. If I add enough antennas on the 2.4ghz network and cover the lake really well, will I need CPE? Or would you recommend antennas at every customer premises pointing to the tower? Here is a picture of the locations I can put equipment on. »i.imgur.com/alz0WNg.png


lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1
reply to ccobb123

said by ccobb123 :

planning stages of starting a WISP at my cabin in rural Washington. ... would like to provide ~800 devices with 50 mbps speeds.

Unfortunately there is a new reality and old fashioned C:1 contention ratios have become irrelevant. You can assume everyone is watching a different Netflix or IPTV video stream during the early evenings.

That means you will need approx 800x2Mb/s=1.6Gb/s. You can assume some customers will be away from their cabins and make it an even 1Gb/s.

However, your real problem will be at distributing that 1Gb/s "backhaul" through X wireless backhauls to Y access points in a rural area.

It is NOT a trivial task ... but fortunately you are only in the planning stages.

danry25
Premium
join:2008-05-21
Seattle, WA
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to ccobb123

Your going to need CPE regardless, as you can't reliably deliver 2.4ghz service to most of your potential customers just from those tower sites.

Your limiting factor in this case would be the consumer wifi chipsets that are common today, most of which are not very powerful, and thus can't contact your towers back even if they can see your SSID.



ccobb123

@mycingular.net
reply to lutful

I'll provide each home (200 homes) with 50mbps service. Many people at the lake like to watch Netflix but, I don't think everyone will be watching it at the same time.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

said by ccobb123 :

I'll provide each home (200 homes) with 50mbps service. Many people at the lake like to watch Netflix but, I don't think everyone will be watching it at the same time.

Ouch.

Like Lutful said its a good thing you are still in the planning stages..
You care to share how you are going to do that?
I only saw 4 PTmP sites in your map, thats 50 customers per site, I am not aware of any system capable of doing what you want in the real world.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to ccobb123

I see good potential here for you. I've done some other similar engineering for people here in your same position.

Register at this site, then send me an email using the site PM function, I'd like to talk with you on the phone. I have a number of questions...

BTW, is the ham a friend of yours?
--
Many believe, but few will question...I decline to be blind.



treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to ccobb123

ccobb123 how can you even get fiber from Frontier? because I have been trying to ask that from frontier and they always tell me go with Metro E crap let alone 1Gbps fiber from frontier.


ccobb123

join:2013-10-27
Seattle, WA
reply to Inssomniak

said by Inssomniak:

I only saw 4 PTmP sites in your map, thats 50 customers per site

I was thinking of having a total of 16 sector antennas. 200/16=12.5 customers per antenna. Here's a picture of what I am thinking. Each red line represents one sector antenna. »i.imgur.com/YGNcERe.png

prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2

that system bouncing across lakes actually works REALLY REALLY well! It's gonna take some real planning and i think 50 mbps is really high. You can probably get away with 10-15 and even that will be pushing your AP's. You'll also have to do some really good frequency planning.


LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to danry25

said by danry25:

Your going to need CPE regardless, as you can't reliably deliver 2.4ghz service to most of your potential customers just from those tower sites.

I don't know how you would be able to push 50 meg to each sub over 16 sectors on 2.4 as there just are not the channels available. The noise floor alone from all the homes is bad enough before factoring in self-interference.

You will need to use the 5 GHz spectrum as well.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to ccobb123

said by ccobb123:

I was thinking of having a total of 16 sector antennas. 200/16=12.5 customers per antenna. Here's a picture of what I am thinking. Each red line represents one sector antenna. »i.imgur.com/YGNcERe.png

You are not going to do that in 2.4ghz.

If it was me, take 80% off your speed offering, use DFS bands in 20mhz or possibly 30mhz around the lake.

Keep the 5.8 band open to haul it all back, and thats still sounds like a lot of hauling in. Impossible? Almost.

GPS? on the new atheros based cambium stuff and the $99 CPE sounds like a good fit for this application but its not DFS band certified.

--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to ccobb123

There is only one path from Tower 0 to the other towers. Therefore, all of your bandwidth must traverse this link.


LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1

said by John Galt:

There is only one path from Tower 0 to the other towers...

That also means some shots are over tree covered terrain and will need adequate height. I would imagine it may pose a problem to get the height and some will have to relay off other towers.

It would be interesting to see the plan for how to backhaul that much bandwidth.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey


treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to ccobb123

only way he able to go 1Gbps to his towers is the new vaporware Airfiber5 comes out or use Airfiber24 in short paths....