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JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

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Re: New Ontario class action against Bell Canada Pre-Paid cards gets approval

There's nothing in the language of the act which states that, however, there is this exemption that could be argued to apply:

"a gift card that covers only one specific good or service"

However, they've probably argued that because they bill multiple services (local calls, long distance, texting, data, etc) at different rates and list them individually on a bill then they cannot be considered a single service.

Also, just because something is federally regulated does not mean it can't also have provincial regulations. PART VII of the consumer protection act deals, in part, with credit cards.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by JMJimmy:

Also, just because something is federally regulated does not mean it can't also have provincial regulations. PART VII of the consumer protection act deals, in part, with credit cards.

The province has specifically stated that these items are exempt from the regulation. If you don't believe me, you can see it right from the horses mouth:
said by »www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en ··· rds.aspx :
The new law does not apply to loyalty cards used to collect rewards or points, and does not apply to cards that are subject to federal jurisdiction, such as prepaid phone cards. Cards or certificates that are redeemable for specific services, such as a massage at a spa, are also not covered.
(emphasis mine)

And if that wasn't enough...
said by »www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/Do ··· s_en.pdf :
Exceptions
These rules do not apply to:
• Gift certificates for one specific good or
service such as a card redeemable for a
spa package.
• Loyalty cards that provide you with points or
rewards.
• Free or discount cards where a gift card is
given away or sold at a discount.
• Prepaid phone cards - But companies must
disclose the phone card’s terms and conditions
clearly and in a way that consumers can
understand.
• Prepaid credit cards - The name may say
“VISA” or “MasterCard,” but these are actually
gift cards, not credit cards. You pay a fee to buy
one, but there is no fee when you use it. Fees
apply if you:
Hold a card longer than six months, or
Replace a lost or stolen card.
• Gift cards you buy or receive to
support fund-raising - This includes cards
from a charity or non-profit organization.
• Mall cards – Cards that may be redeemed
at more than one store. The mall may
charge a one-time activation fee of up to
$1.50. After 15 months (or 18 months, if you
request an extension) the mall may charge
you up to $2.50 per month on any unused
balance. These terms must be clearly stated
on the card.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

It's not a "prepaid phone card" it's a prepaid service.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

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Those links are "government information" pages, they are not legal documents. The act itself is the legal document and doesn't support those information pages. The action wouldn't have been able to proceed if those pages were accurate to the law.
JMJimmy

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said by elwoodblues:

It's not a "prepaid phone card" it's a prepaid service.

No, they're pre-paid cards. As stated above, they're used for multiple services (local vs long distance calling, texting, data, etc)

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

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said by JMJimmy:

Those links are "government information" pages, they are not legal documents. The act itself is the legal document and doesn't support those information pages. The action wouldn't have been able to proceed if those pages were accurate to the law.

So the government is lying about their own consumer protection laws? Where did you get your LLB and do your articles?
BrianON
join:2011-09-30
Ottawa, ON

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said by JMJimmy:

No, they're pre-paid cards. As stated above, they're used for multiple services (local vs long distance calling, texting, data, etc)

The cards have none of that. They are used to add to the balance of a pre-paid cell phone plan. You can wait months after purchasing the card before applying it to your or another person's prepaid cell phone account without it losing any value.

That it's common practice to expire pre-paid cell phone balances after a number of days is really a separate issue and happens if you use top-up cards, a credit card or a debit card to add to the account balance.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

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said by Gone:

said by JMJimmy:

Those links are "government information" pages, they are not legal documents. The act itself is the legal document and doesn't support those information pages. The action wouldn't have been able to proceed if those pages were accurate to the law.

So the government is lying about their own consumer protection laws? Where did you get your LLB and do your articles?

Always love these kind of comments: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

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They were entirely valid questions for me or anyone else here to ask. You also didn't bother to post any relevant sections of the acts you claimed contradicted the government's own website. The onus is on you. The ball is in your court. Best of luck to you.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

JMJimmy

Member

said by Gone:

They were entirely valid questions for me or anyone else here to ask.

They're pointless things to ask. Whether or not I have an LLB/articles has zero bearing on the substance of what I'm saying. I am not offering legal advice, merely a point of view.
said by Gone:

You also didn't bother to post any relevant sections of the acts you claimed contradicted the government's own website. The onus is on you. The ball is in your court. Best of luck to you.

I did here: »Re: New Ontario class action against Bell Canada Pre-Paid cards gets approval notice the section in quotation marks? Ether way here you go:

»bit.ly/HICYYZ - link at the bottom to the actual regulation

25.1 Sections 25.2 to 25.5 apply to every gift card agreement entered into on or after the day this section comes into force and to every gift card issued under that agreement, but do not apply to,

(a) a gift card that a supplier issues for a charitable purpose; or

(b) a gift card that covers only one specific good or service; or

(c) the gift card agreement under which a gift card described in clause (a) or (b) is issued. O. Reg. 187/07, s. 3.

Bhell might be able to argue B, but I doubt it would hold up since at the very least they bill local and long distance separately and the cards allow for both types of services.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

The cards themselves don't expire. The service does. There is a huge difference between those two.

If we were to use your argument, Loblaw would be in violation of the law if you used a gift card to purchase a carton of milk that expired before you used it all. Is this your contention?

This, of course, completely ignores the whole federal regulation side of things.

Treegravy
Premium Member
join:2011-04-21
Canada

Treegravy

Premium Member

Click for full size
Capture from: homeplan2
said by Gone:

The cards themselves don't expire. The service does.

I like how $100 dollars of 'service' takes 365 day to expire and lesser amounts expire faster. This is the inherent unfairness of the current system. I don't mind the "service" expiring at some point but I want the same expiry time per dollar. I would rather pay 15$ per year for a phone I never use than $100.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

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It may be unfair, but it's doubtful there is anything at all illegal about what they're doing.

Treegravy
Premium Member
join:2011-04-21
Canada

Treegravy

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Doubtful perhaps, but this is why we have courts. They could rule here that allowing a service to expire at different rates purely based on whether you can spend more money discriminates against those unable to spend $100 in a single sum versus having to spend $180 to achieve the same service in smaller individual increments.

rednekcowboy
join:2012-03-21

rednekcowboy

Member

said by Treegravy:

Doubtful perhaps, but this is why we have courts. They could rule here that allowing a service to expire at different rates purely based on whether you can spend more money discriminates against those unable to spend $100 in a single sum versus having to spend $180 to achieve the same service in smaller individual increments.

That doesn't make any sense at all as all companies do this. The more you spend/buy the better deal you get, just go check the grocery stores and the main reason why Costco is so popular.

Treegravy
Premium Member
join:2011-04-21
Canada

Treegravy

Premium Member

Well, sense or not, all cards should have the same expiry time. If you want the costco model then you should get more talk time for your extra dollar lump sums not more expiry time, no?

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by Treegravy:

Well, sense or not, all cards should have the same expiry time.

They do - none of the cards expire, period.

Treegravy
Premium Member
join:2011-04-21
Canada

Treegravy

Premium Member

Where do get that from, Gone? Semantically you're correct: The actual physical cards don't expire, vaporize, vanish, but the service most certainly does, the time depending on the dollar amount attached to them.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

You're buying a card, not the service. The card doesn't expire. As I said, complaining about the service expiring would be no different than complaining about the milk you bought using a Loblaw gift card expiring before you used it.

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt

Premium Member

said by Gone:

You're buying a card, not the service. The card doesn't expire. As I said, complaining about the service expiring would be no different than complaining about the milk you bought using a Loblaw gift card expiring before you used it.

It is quite different... The "card" contains no service, simply an activation code. And there is no physical part if you refill your balance online.

Milk is quite different, because the milk product has a naturally limited shelf life, not artificially expired.

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

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Whether or not you're buying a physical card or a code doesn't make much of a difference. It also doesn't make a difference how the product expired. The fact remains that the product you purchased using the card expired, not the card itself.

Regulation of how those prepaid balances are handled is the realm of the feds, not the province.
akoostik
join:2013-11-07

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said by Gone:

If we were to use your argument, Loblaw would be in violation of the law if you used a gift card to purchase a carton of milk that expired before you used it all. Is this your contention?

+1
AsherN
Premium Member
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON

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to HiVolt
When you buy a card, it can sit on the shelf forever. Once you use the activation code, you have used the card to purchase a product. The product has an expiry. Online, you purchase the product directly.

Treegravy
Premium Member
join:2011-04-21
Canada

Treegravy

Premium Member

said by AsherN:

The product has an expiry.

And that's the issue. The product expires at different rates depending on how much you can afford to tie up at one time. That expiry time is discriminatory, arbitrary, unfair, and smacks of collusion since all the major carriers adhere to the same time spans.

So, we can argue here as to whether there is merit or who has jurisdiction or wait and see what happens.

Should be interesting.

rednekcowboy
join:2012-03-21

rednekcowboy

Member

said by Treegravy:

said by AsherN:

The product has an expiry.

And that's the issue. The product expires at different rates depending on how much you can afford to tie up at one time. That expiry time is discriminatory, arbitrary, unfair, and smacks of collusion since all the major carriers adhere to the same time spans.

So, we can argue here as to whether there is merit or who has jurisdiction or wait and see what happens.

Should be interesting.

K, it's been a long time since I used a pre-paid cell, but last time I did you spent $X and got $X minutes depending how much you spent determined how many minutes you got. How many minutes you buy determined the length of time you had to use them in....

Does it not still work this way? From what you are saying, you buy, for example, 30 minutes no matter how much you spend, you only get 30 minutes but the length of time you have to use that 30 minutes increases with the amount of money you spend?

If that is correct, which carrier is that with because it makes absolutely no sense at all....

Jackorama
I Am Woman
Premium Member
join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON

Jackorama

Premium Member

I use a pre-paid and I don't pay for a specific amount of minutes, because day time use costs .40 per min. and night time use costs .05 per min. I can get a $20 card that has a expiry time of 45 days, a $30 card with a expiry time of 75 days and a $60 card with a expiry time of 150 days.

I get the $30 card and if I don't get another card before the expiry of 75 days I loose any remaining balance from the $30 card and any roll over amount from always buying a card before the expiry date.

I only use my phone for emergencies and contacting family members when not near a land line. No one else gets my cell number.

Today was my expiry date and I added a new $30 card 2 days ago, my balance is now $139.28 and expires on Jan. 19, 2014. I will then add another card a couple of days before to ensure the amount left on it will roll over.

Hope this answers your question.

rednekcowboy
join:2012-03-21

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rednekcowboy

Member

said by Jackorama:

I use a pre-paid and I don't pay for a specific amount of minutes, because day time use costs .40 per min. and night time use costs .05 per min. I can get a $20 card that has a expiry time of 45 days, a $30 card with a expiry time of 75 days and a $60 card with a expiry time of 150 days.

I get the $30 card and if I don't get another card before the expiry of 75 days I loose any remaining balance from the $30 card and any roll over amount from always buying a card before the expiry date.

I only use my phone for emergencies and contacting family members when not near a land line. No one else gets my cell number.

Today was my expiry date and I added a new $30 card 2 days ago, my balance is now $139.28 and expires on Jan. 19, 2014. I will then add another card a couple of days before to ensure the amount left on it will roll over.

Hope this answers your question.

Actually no it doesn't. I mean it does, but you guys have a very screwed up view of it, in my opinion and no offense.

You are paying for the service and you do get more use out of it the more you spend. The amount you spend really has nothing to do with the expiry. The expiry is tied to the service, the more service you buy, the longer duration you have to use that service.

IE, you are really paying for service for X number of months, much the same as if you went postpaid on a monthly plan. It would make no sense for someone who pays $150 to have the same expiry date as someone who pays $30. The more money you spend, the better deal you get, but that's the same everywhere.

Also, the card does not expire, once you use the funds on the card it expires, just like any other gift card out there. Once you spend the value of the card, the card is useless. I can buy a card for my daughter now and give it to her at Christmas and it will still be valid.

Treegravy
Premium Member
join:2011-04-21
Canada

Treegravy

Premium Member

But that precisely what I'm saying. If someone pays $30 they should have the same expiry time as someone who pays more! If you pay more you should get more talk time not just more time to use the minutes! All $$$s should be treated equally in how they expire -- the "deal" for more up front money should be an actual lower rate per minute!

Which brings back around to the class action suit: The expiry of the "service" purchased.

Jackorama
I Am Woman
Premium Member
join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON

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I'm not saying I agree or disagree. I think this is more about if you don't buy a new card before your expiry date then you loose the amount left that you did not use because you did not use the service (ie: make and receive calls with your cell phone). I think people feel ripped off when they loose money, that makes it look like you paid $100 just to have your phone on the network but not use the service of making or receiving calls. There was a 7-11 store phone that you could purchase a $100 card that expired in 1 year. We don't have 7-11 here. It would be a more cost efficient for someone like me, I could use the $100 up with in a year.

rednekcowboy
join:2012-03-21

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said by Treegravy:

But that precisely what I'm saying. If someone pays $30 they should have the same expiry time as someone who pays more! If you pay more you should get more talk time not just more time to use the minutes! All $$$s should be treated equally in how they expire -- the "deal" for more up front money should be an actual lower rate per minute!

Which brings back around to the class action suit: The expiry of the "service" purchased.

No you shouldn't....

You are saying for $15 you should have cell service indefinitely? You are paying for a monthly service without going on a monthly plan. That is all. The service doesn't really expire, if you add more money (IE pay another month) then the service continues. If I don't pay my bill at the end of the month, my service will "expire" as well.

It's basic--You pay $X and you get $X worth of value in airtime and X months of service. If you chose not to extend the service, then you don't get the service. It doesn't "expire", you chose not to renew it.

It used to be tied to air time and it still is, somewhat, but it's more the access to that air time and the duration of time you have that access.

Jackorama--I'm on a monthly plan with Koodo, if I don't use all of my minutes this month, I lose them. It's the same as pre-paid, except you are paying in advance for access to the service, where I pay after the fact....