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PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium Member
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY

PhoenixDown to Grumpy4

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to Grumpy4

Re: Tesla Model S

said by Grumpy4:

Mr. Wetblanket posts:

Although I would love to have a Tesla parked in my driveway, i do wonder what the insurance would cost.

Just do a quick quote on esurance.... a lot would be the appropriate answer.
PhoenixDown

PhoenixDown to Alpha Phoenix

Premium Member

to Alpha Phoenix
I think the merits of electric vehicles should move to its own thread so we can keep this discussion on topic about the car itself

Alpha Phoenix
Premium Member
join:2001-06-15
Brooklyn, NY

Alpha Phoenix to zomgwut

Premium Member

to zomgwut
said by zomgwut :

said by Gordo74:

Let me ask the electric car haters that don't like it because they are just "shifting the pollution to the power plants".

Would you rather make 100 million cars green, or 1,000 power plants? Seems pretty simple to me.

BTW - Nuclear and Solar are the two cleanest forms of energy. Period. If you think otherwise, you are wrong. Sorry.

The problem is, the green car aint green when you look at what goes into making it (ex. batteries) vs a normal gas car... not to mention, the grid would never ever EVER handle that many cars being plugged in. They are still nothing more than a feel good toy. So your 100m cars you are talking about redoing the whole power grid...

There is a difference between hater and realist.

Of course you need change... to have change...

I also don't understand your numbers... 100million cars would need to be made "green" as well as 1,000 power plants built... so... it aint a OR its a AND...

Don't forget transformer upgrades... oh man, be like one transformer per house with a EV...

Got any idea how long it takes to build a nuke plant... if you even can... your EV dream here powered by anything... is 50 years away... on a good day.

We can't get anymore power generation... prices for power will not go up, they will sky rocket...

And of course going off 100million... the job loses would be crazy... along with not being able to even afford to turn your lights on...

No hate, just... saying the real effects of all electric with current tech...

What are you talking about? The Tesla Model S can plug into a regular 120v and charge. 240v charges faster, but you don't need a transformer upgrade in every house. You can charge a Tesla like you charge your cell phone; overnight. And the total electricity cost over a year is about $700. How much do you pay a year in gas right now?

And everything has a carbon cost to manufacture, but usage doesn't have to increase that. And Elon is also working to put solar panels on many supercharger stations, and there a quite a few homes now that have solar panels, and actually feed back the excess power they collect and don't use back into the energy grid, for saving.

zomgwut
@optonline.net

zomgwut

Anon

Your kidding right, 9 hour charge time would give you a whole 30 miles... and that is at 12 amps... 120volt (my phone charges to FULL overnight, not 10% and does not pull 12 amps)

Now I know when I lived in the Bronx we had 1 car, up here I think at the high point we had 3.

so 3x 12 amps (and again, that's worthless...) is each house pulling another 36 amps... now add 3 wall ac's your talking... 36 amps... so now on a hot night you could be pulling 72 amps... and if you toss on your electric oven or dryer...

So worthless charging is 12 amps...

Now real charging is 24 amps... @ 240 volts...
(of course to get the FULL use out of the car from a overnight charge you need 40 amp)

Now that's a decent sized load... PER CAR. 3 car house hold... 72amps just for your cars, hot night, add another I'll drop it down, 2 window acs... 24 amps... 96 amps to be sleeping... with the AC on and your cars charging... and everything else in your house off... so it is easy to say at night rather than a house pulling 28 amps... it is pulling 100... that is a HUGE increase. PER house... oh I forgot the fridge...

This is not taking into account... come home from work, it's 6pm. Plug in the car, have the AC on, lights, tv, start the electric oven up... kids are on the computer...

Holy power usage...

solar just makes it even worse, ya great your house is making power while you are at work with your car, the car is charging at night, when the sun is not out... so you still need huge generation power... solar did nothing... and again the damage to the environment that those panels cause (in being made) is huge.

At one point we had a horse, no gas stations, no refinery... and now, you have gas stations all over... as it stands now... yes, you need HUGE upgrades to the grid to support 100million EVs...

Oh we don't want to talk about my fuel usage. One year I think I did 3000 miles... it does not change any of the facts...
zomgwut

zomgwut

Anon

I left out at well it seems charging at 120volt is much less efficient than 240... like 25% less efficient it seems from the tesla motors website? »www.teslamotors.com/char ··· lculator

Anonuser
join:2003-01-03
Milwaukee, WI

1 recommendation

Anonuser to Alpha Phoenix

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»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· jAP1M-xI


Tesla Motors: NAIAS Road Trip With ELON Q&A! Exec Car Seats, the Booth, and a stop at Hardcore Pawn!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a EXCITING TRIP this was. A friend +1'd me as his guest to the Tesla Owners Appreciation get-together at the NAIAS in Detroit for 2015. That was only last Tuesday! What then started off as another of my road trips, ended amazingly! Video starts after supercharging at Highland Park Service Center, Shout-out to everyone at the SC!!!. I took a side trip (not shown in this video) to Country Club Hills Supercharger, a brand new Supercharger, to do a much over-due www.SuperchargerTravel.com video update! This added a few hours to the trip, however, it was nice to see a new Supercharger, and on top of that, NEW STATION DESIGN!!!! Beautiful!!!
Then Headed to Mishawaka, Indiana Supercharger. Plugged in, short cut though the inside of the mall to stay warm, and headed over to Granite City (It's a restaurant) for a relaxing dinner. I also filled up my re-fill-able Growler (BIG Beer Bottle) at Granite City. They have in house micro-brew, and got a nice TASTY specialty beer for only $10 (The ENTIRE JUG WAS FILLED FOR THAT $10, though the Non-Specialty Beers are as low as $6 for a complete Fill).

By that time, it was after mall closing hours. So I had to walk outside the mall this time to the Superchargers and my car. This was about a 18 minute walk (long way around without short-cutting through the mall) in -5*F (About -20*C). At least the car was pre-heated and all ready for me.
I proceeded to head to Maumee, Ohio to supercharge. In Mishawaka, I did a 100% charge in hopes of being able to By-Pass the Angola Supercharger (And save myself $10 in tolls due to the exit and re-entry to the turnpike), however, it was clear, at -5*F and mild snowfall, that I would not make the total distance to Maumee, and would come up about 10 Miles short, even at reduced speeds. So... Better safe then sorry, I exited at Angola (Halfway point between Mishawaka and Maumee) and did a 15 minute top off. This also allowed me to run heat full blast the rest of the way to Maumee without worry.

I did arrive in Maumee with 30 miles to spare. Pulled around to the side of the grocery store where the supercharger is..... Low and behold..... The Superchargers were plowed in..... A White Model S with 2 people had the only space that wasn't completely plowed in, so I did what I had to..... use the Awesome Power of the Model S to take a running start and ram my way through the snow. That worked perfectly, and I was soon charging away.

Now, as no Superchargers in Detroit or near (Maumee being the closest one), I decided to do a 100% charge at Maumee, as this will greatly reduce the time needed on a Level 2 in Detroit, and given my quick turn-around time of only 24 hours in Detroit, before driving another 500+ miles back home, this was a good call.

After hitting 100%, I headed out. It took a very long time to complete, so I had a extra hour to shoot some more videos, such as the Supercharging view with a Thermal Camera...

Arrived in Detroit at about 4:30 AM. I was starting to get really tired, and due to that, I entered the wrong destination address. I put the address for the COBA center in (where the Auto Show is) instead of the MGM Grand Hotel Casino (Where the J1772 Stations were I had planned to plug in). I corrected that error, and schlepped over to the MGM.

To my Surprise, I had the whole 6th floor to myself, as well as the Charging Stations.
Plug share had listed 6 J1772's, and 4x20amp 120v outlets.

Much to my supurise, I did not see 6 J1772 Station, I didnt see 7, nor 8, nor 10, nor 15, not 20 either, but 24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Holy WTF Batman!!!! Couldn't believe my eyes! On top of that, they had 8!!!! 120v 20 amp outlets as well!!!!!!!
Amazing! This was the most number of stations I have EVER seen (I don't live in California....) in one location EVER...
Plugged in. As I was expecting, and as most public stations are, 30 amps. Surprised by the voltage, at 213-215v. Very High for a single phase split from a 3phase utility connection. On top of that, practically no voltage drop! I've been on plenty of public stations where it started off at 208v and after coming up to the full 30 amps, had dropped as low as 190! (Niagara Falls Tourist Center on the US Side...).
After verifying everything was plugged in and set, I decided to "Bjorn" it for the night. I folded my back seat down, rolled out my sleeping bag, got my pillow, Teddy Bear, put my sun shades up in the window to block out light, and Took a much needed sleep.

Woke up at 9:45ish AM (Thanks A lot Mike Anthony for the wake up call......!!!!). When I sat up, looked around. The ENTIRE floor of the parking garage was full, as were ALL the charging stations. But not with Battery Electric Cars, but Hybrids (Range Extended EV's and Standard Plug In Hybrids), and one other single Model S. Now, Hybrids plugging in is not a problem, what was a problem was HOW LONG THEY STAYED PLUGGED IN!!!!!

Anyways, as Elon hasn't given us the commode option yet for our cars, I wondered into the casino to use the facilities. I also grabbed some free coffee. Decided to take a drive. At this point, I had stayed at the charging station long enough to get another 100% charge on my car. So I headed out. I was thinking, what can I do in Detroit that wont get a White Guy Killed?????
So I did what any sensible guy would do. I stopped at American Jewelry and Loan (Home of TV Show "Hardcore Pawn") to attempt to Pawn my Model S......(not really, I just wanted to get on TV again...)
As you can see in my video, didn't go as planned.
Not only did I not get a offer on my Model S, Not get on TV, but the store was a DUMP! FILTHY, Garbage for sale and smelled like my 4 year olds Poop, LITERALLY!

How this crap hole managed to get it's own TV show...... I have no idea....

Left the Pawn Shop disappointed (Almost as disappointed as I was when I visited the Pawn Stars shop....)
I headed back to the MGM, as I had just WASTED 25 miles range going to that crappy pawn shop. So Plugged in again (Remember, I'm doing a quick turn around, usually wouldn't 100% charge so much, but given the SLOW nature of a J1772, and the 0*F temps, and my lowly 60kWh battery, I need every watt hour I could get my hands on, and I was hungry as I hadent eaten since Granite City Restaurant.
So wandered back down into the casinos food court area.
Nice "Chinese" style restaurant. Got some food. I had brought my laptop with me, as they had free wifi. Loitered in the food court (Very nice atmosphere though, more sit down styling).
Uploaded a bunch of videos, took care of emails and business.
By that time, I had wasted a day, and it was 5pm. time to head over to COBA, for the Tesla Party.

Got to the COBA parking garage, showed my Tesla paper, and got in.
Met my friend in front of Hall C, where the Tesla booth is. We all entered. Jerome was at the Event, which was a pleasant surprise. Had a nice conversation with him.
Then mingled, looked at some of the new Executive Seats.
Then, the fun starts when Elon makes his surprise appearance! I'll let the videos take it from here!

thranx
@commspeed.net

thranx to PhoenixDown

Anon

to PhoenixDown
Actually, insurance costs are remarkably low, doubtless due to the model S safety rating and near impossibility of it being stolen.

Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium Member
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1

4 edits

Anonymous_

Premium Member

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Please get your facts straight
since you are incorrect. about not being able to steal it.
Not very safe proven fact as demo by thieves.

If it has wheels it can be stolen.

SEE photos of a stolen one
well that's 1/2 of one

Don't worry it caught fire as well
driver ejected from car and is dead
Anonymous_

1 edit

Anonymous_ to Alpha Phoenix

Premium Member

to Alpha Phoenix
said by Alpha Phoenix:

What are you talking about? The Tesla Model S can plug into a regular 120v and charge. 240v charges faster, but you don't need a transformer upgrade in every house. You can charge a Tesla like you charge your cell phone; overnight. And the total electricity cost over a year is about $700. How much do you pay a year in gas right now?

More demand = less supply= HIGHER price

Exactly what part of that don't you understand?

I can explain it for you if you want me to

don't forget taxed per mile

roads don't get fixed for free

FREEWAYS and roads ARE not FREE
they are paid by fuel taxes (or a use tax)

This is why you can buy off road fuel i.e for your farm vehicle and not pay a "use tax"


Anonuser
join:2003-01-03
Milwaukee, WI

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Anonuser to Anonymous_

Member

to Anonymous_
said by Anonymous_:

Please get your facts straight
since you are incorrect. about not being able to steal it.
Not very safe proven fact as demo by thieves.

If it has wheels it can be stolen.

SEE photos of a stolen one
well that's 1/2 of one

Don't worry it caught fire as well
driver ejected from car and is dead

Get facts a bit more straight. Driver stole the KEY from the Tesla Store. Police perused on a VERY high speed chase through the city and were able to track the vehicle the entire time VIA the GPS access to the vehicle and it's cellular modem. The theif, managed to crash the car in a way where it got WEDGED BETWEEN TWO BUILDINGS about 15 FT OFF THE GROUND. Thief was also NOT wearing his seat belt.
When the battery pack literally was ripped in half (Remember, battery pack even has 1/4 inch armor plating, and a Titanium Shield!), the individual lithium cells did pop. The car did not go up in flames, but the cells popped like fire crackers.

What would have happened if that was 20 gallons of gasoline that had sprayed all over after the gas tank was ripped open?

Oh, the crash was in excess of 120 Mph.
Anonuser

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Anonuser to Anonymous_

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to Anonymous_
said by Anonymous_:

said by Alpha Phoenix:

What are you talking about? The Tesla Model S can plug into a regular 120v and charge. 240v charges faster, but you don't need a transformer upgrade in every house. You can charge a Tesla like you charge your cell phone; overnight. And the total electricity cost over a year is about $700. How much do you pay a year in gas right now?

More demand = less supply= HIGHER price

Exactly what part of that don't you understand?

I can explain it for you if you want me to

don't forget taxed per mile

roads don't get fixed for free

FREEWAYS and roads ARE not FREE
they are paid by fuel taxes (or a use tax)

This is why you can buy off road fuel i.e for your farm vehicle and not pay a "use tax"

While most states don't have Road Tax yet for EV's, States like Mine (Wisconsin) are preparing them and finalizing the details. We will be paying a yearly Road Tax at time of vehicle Registration or renewal. States with annual Inspection requirements are talking about taxing per mile, based on the shown mileage from year to year. We're not getting a free ride, at least, not for very long. I have no problems paying my road tax, as long as it is a fair tax. Wisconsin is even going to be adding a additional Road tax to vehicles that get higher MPG, such as Hybrids.

Most EV's charge at night, during off-peak hours. This is when the grid is producing EXCESS energy. Where I live (milwaukee), we go from a Massive Demand during the day, to about a 60% surplus at night. Surplus as in Wasted power. Unfortunately, the generating plants cant spool up and down quick enough to handle the day time peak demand. As such, it is a Win Win situation for EV's for the PowerCo's, as our night time rates are a bit cheaper to insentivize moving our charging to off-peak surplus hours. This helps the power company recoup losses that would have other wise been wasted, and in return, we get cheaper night time power. Trade off for us though, we pay 3-4x more for our power during the day then the average person.

My house is on a 25kWh transformer shared with 3 other houses. As a Experiment, I tested charging during the hottest day we had this year. So all houses AC's were running. I had my car plugged in, at 10kWh. I also turned on my AC, 3 space heaters, cloths dryer, and run some other equipment I have at home. I calculated my own load alone to be 20kWh for just my house. Voltage Drop? Practically Nil. I ran it for the full course of my charging cycle, so about 6 hours that time at a 10kWh charge rate. Not a single issue with the transformer. Would we likely need a upgrade if we have more EV's on our street? Yah, most likely. But whats the big deal. The power company making more money off the power sold, so it's not like they are doing it for "nothing".

lolwutpower
@optonline.net

lolwutpower

Anon

Sorry you have no idea how power works, you can have excess generation capacity BUT you can't have it online. Generation output must be very close to demand to get the correct voltage... so you are wasting nothing...

Now I aint no power grid engineer but, I do know large generators take a long time to come online and offline. The quick load changes are covered by smaller, very expensive to run generators...

So really, unless we get something like, I believe Britain has where after a tv show there is a HUGE power demand (cause everyone is going to make tea) and they have something like 5 seconds to bring something like 50mw (don't quote me) online. We could end up with issues balancing the power grid when random amounts of cars get plugged in (this is talking again with HUGE amounts of evs)

If you draw 20kw from your own house out of a 25kw transformer, well gj you proved that each would needs its own transformer... or they would need to be changed out to much larger transformers... if I was your neighbor (and I want to point out I doubt all your numbers are correct...) you would have popped the transformer... no problem... 5kw left over for two houses? Shit man under load my PC can pull next to a KW... toss in 2 acs, and god forbid I use the oven or dryer... bye bye power.

But ya I really recommend you look into how the gird works... power generation (not capacity) needs to be = to demand... you have no wasted energy just wasted capacity... and I can tell you around here... hot hot night, we have very little excess generation capacity...

All evs will do is make a larger gap in capacity / output.

As far as accidents, I have a picture of an audi, took telephone polls right in half, rolled like 6 times, landed on a house, wheels missing, etc... guy walked away... no seat belt. That really does not mean much what happened to the person in bad accident...

20 gallons of fuel would do nothing but light on fire... we have how many cars on the road... you don't hear of explosions and fires destroying everything everyday...

li-ion is more dangerous that gas. Metal fires are more dangerous...

Of course gas was more dangerous than a horse...

As far as the whole long trip... I think that is points out the current issue... needing to park where you can charge, needing to know where your chargers are when on a longer trip... worry about having heat or making it home...

Again I give you, at one point, I doubt we had many gas stations...

I still am waiting for all these super computer controlled cars to get hacked... you go down the road and your car starts changing ride height, radio on and off, heated seats turn on... etc... lol

Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium Member
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1

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Anonymous_ to Anonuser

Premium Member

to Anonuser
stolen is stolen

it still can get stolen

You know you can open the door via the emergency hidden latch under the driver seat.

thief can use a tow tuck AAA does not even check the registration.
I can easily have your car towed to a scrap yard and scrapped..

Anonuser
join:2003-01-03
Milwaukee, WI

1 recommendation

Anonuser to lolwutpower

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to lolwutpower
Yes, I do know how the grid works. It's part of my job. If there wasnt OVER GENERATION, they wouldn't have TIME OF USE OFF PEAK to help balance things out and use up the WASTED Generation power. A 85kWh Lithium Ion battery pack has the explosive power of 2 gallons of gasoline, yes, that is correct.
I was pointing out how a 25kWh transformer can handle the load for periods of time. And with the demand for electrical appliances and what not, transformer upgrades are coming anyways. The transformer outside my house was installed in the 1960's. I'd say it's time for a upgrade anyways. Also, not necessarally charging at 10 or 20kW continuously. I sure dont. My car is set to charge at the lowest power to complete charge my the time I need it the next day. So, on average, I'd say my car charges at about 2-3kWh on most days.

As for the Audi, wow, thats amazing to be able to walk away from that. There have been worse accidents in a Model S. That was only the first Fatality, and he got ejected through the windshield due to not wearing a seat belt.

Current issue, of needing to park where I can charge has been a non issue. Superchargers, are spaced nicely, and are located where there are restuaraunts, entertainment, shopping etc... Tesla is just one company, and they are turning on Superchargers at a rate of about 1/day worldwide. Thats a lot to accomplish for a single company. And even then, it's only needed for long distance trips. How often to people do cross country, or multi-hundred mile trips? Usually not every day, or every week. Majority of people, do 20-30 miles/day. I'm a extreme case, I usually do about 200 miles day. And guess what, I RARELY plug in at a public station. I leave the house every day with a full charge. And dont plug in again until I get home. No need to "know" where the chargers are on a longer trip, the car tells me and can route to them. Dont forget, on a long trip, you need to know where your gas stations are.
Didn't need to worry about heat. I was nice and comfortable. But at temps in the negative, after making sure I had more then enough power, I decided to feel like I was on a tropical beach, so I cranked the heat up to 96 =-]

And yes, thank you for giving me the one point where you doubt we had many gas stations. The EV network is still in it's infancy. As of 2 years ago, Coast to Coast was Impossible in under 20 days in a EV. 1 Year ago, Tesla did the Cannon Ball Run in about 72 Hrs, and that was in a network that weaved around the US, not direct route. Once about 5 or 6 more locations come online, the direct Cannonball Route should cut the Electric Cross Country trip down to as low as 48 hrs. And all done without costing a penny for fuel.

As for hacking the cars... Thats up to how well the manufacturer programs the car. At the moment, One person I know of was finally able to sniff the traffic between the car and Tesla during a update process. Tesla found out, and within 48 hrs of this happening, a update was already downloaded to every vehicle that patched and blocked that.
I will tell you with my own attempts, these cars are locked down hard.
In fact, even a service tech (called a Ranger) that will come to your house to work on the car, has difficulty getting in.
To access the onboard computer on site and not a service center, the following must be done:
#1: Car must have internet access, either cellular or wifi.
#2: The tech must be authorized to access the car at that specific time.
#3: The tech then plugs his Tesla Authorized laptop into the data port on the car.
#4: Car then verifies techs authentication directly with Tesla Corporate.
#5: Once credentials are established, the car then verifies the GPS Location of the car, to make sure matches the location the Tech is supposed to be working on it within a given leeway distance.

As for the driving portion of the car, the actual portion of the vehicle that is controlling the "Driving" is a separate locked system. Only things accessible over the net are charging, and pre-heating and cooling the vehicle, and starting the car from the Tesla App. Once again, the tesla app would then require entering your credentials (Password) a second time, which is verified with Tesla servers. Once verified, you must enter the car, and hit the brake within 2 minutes of the signal being sent.
Anonuser

Anonuser to Anonymous_

Member

to Anonymous_
said by Anonymous_:

stolen is stolen still can get stolen

it's easy to open via the emergency hidden latch under the driver seat.

To do what? And there is no emergency latch under the drivers seat. If your talking about opening the door, it's Electro-Mechanical. Front doors are electro mechanical handles for the first 98% of the pull, the last 2% are mechanical emergency escape wires in case of major power failure of the 12v system.
In the rear, emergency door released are under a carpeted flap by your feet.
In the trunk, emergency pull tab next to the trunk light
Under the hood, glow in the dark button. it's a non-passenger compartment so no mechanical release from the inside. Mechanical Hood release in located in Passenger Compartment on Passenger front seat foot well right side hidden up under the plastic.
Anonuser

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Oh, and it is easy to "steal" any car that the thief has the key for, which has been the case in every Model S Theft. Each has been recovered as the owner provided the iPhone access with the live location map of the vehicle.

Anonymous_
Anonymous
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join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1

Anonymous_

Premium Member

said by Anonuser:

Oh, and it is easy to "steal" any car that the thief has the key for, which has been the case in every Model S Theft. Each has been recovered as the owner provided the iPhone access with the live location map of the vehicle.

yes if you call "crashed" a recovery

BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium Member
join:2004-04-13
Canada

BonezX

Premium Member

said by Anonymous_:

said by Anonuser:

Oh, and it is easy to "steal" any car that the thief has the key for, which has been the case in every Model S Theft. Each has been recovered as the owner provided the iPhone access with the live location map of the vehicle.

yes if you call "crashed" a recovery

Recovery as in, not in a shipping container on it's way to some foreign country, considering that a completely stripped supra(as in only the unibody is left) is considered a recovered vehicle.

Golden rule about anti-theft, is that the term anti-theft is wrong, it's theft resistant, just like security systems don't provide perfect security, they just create a deterrent for 90% of the people that would do a crime, by increasing the amount of difficulty or effort required.

Also, "recovering" a victim of a crime is also correct when they are the consistency of raw hamburger, or in the case of tangible goods, a smashed no longer functioning laptop is considered "recovered" as far as the justice system is concerned.

Anonymous_
Anonymous
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join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1

Anonymous_ to Anonuser

Premium Member

to Anonuser
still did not answer the supply demand question yet
Expand your moderator at work
System

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Anon

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This topic has been closed. Reason: run its course