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Geot

@verizon.net
reply to Gerard1234

Re: [Caps] Comcast New 300GB Monthly Limit And Overage Charges

300 GB is a lot of data. Today, even with video streaming ,the vast majority of users won't hit 300 GB. There are two issues that keep ISP execs up at night. The daily evening peak demand that occurs when people get home from work and the accelerating year over year increases in data usage. They have built a 12 lane freeway that only gets heavily used for 4 hours a day and in few more years they will need to upgrade it to 24. "Cable companies just spent billions deploying DOCSIS 3.0 technology" and they are going to have to do it again. This is a capital intensive business with low ROIC. "Comcast, supposedly the greatest cable monopolist, has averaged just a 4.5% ROIC over the last five years".

»dailycaller.com/2013/02/15/does-···-margin/



TAZ

@qwest.net

No, what keeps them up at night is the fact that they know TV and land phone service are not sustainable businesses (talking long-term here). The cash grab here is proof of that - they have no further options left to grow their business, so they're going to milk the existing customers.



Geot

@verizon.net

Good points...content providers are killing them on TV and voice is a barren wasteland between people going cell only and various VOIP low cost provders that run around $5/mo for unlimited LD


travelguy

join:1999-09-03
Santa Fe, NM
reply to Geot

said by Geot :

300 GB is a lot of data. Today, even with video streaming ,the vast majority of users won't hit 300 GB.

You are not taking into account uplinks. Try to backup a couple of 500GB harddrives to one of the cloud storage companies. We haven't paid a TV bill in over 15 years. All our viewing (mostly HD) is by streaming or download. It's quite easy to approach or exceed 300GB.

I get that Comcast and the others hate flat rate billing. All the MBAs are taught to price based on consumption to maximize margins. They see the trend of increasing use, and have what is essentially a fixed investment that generates ever increasing revenue as use increases.

Then you have the occasional person who wants to run a mega clone operation out of their bedroom.

Don't particularly like it, but I understand why they want to do it.


Geot

@verizon.net

Any decent cloud backup is incremental, so yeah you might have to ease into it initially, but after that it should be manageable. Can you amass TBs of data? Sure, but downloading shows, as opposed to streaming, and then wanting to backup them up has other issues, mainly DMCA. The argument that you want to blow your cap and not pay extra while violating DMCA is not going to get you very far.



NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage

said by Geot :

Sure, but downloading shows, as opposed to streaming, and then wanting to backup them up has other issues, mainly DMCA. The argument that you want to blow your cap and not pay extra while violating DMCA is not going to get you very far.

You obviously are not familiar with the video download services offered by Amazon. Their downloaded video files are DRM limited to the number of simultaneous viewing devices, but there is no DMCA restriction on where you store the files (or how many archived copies you might wish to keep). And Amazon is just an example; there are other legitimate download services with similar rules.
--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

shades

join:2001-06-26
Williamstown, NJ
reply to travelguy

you will not be billed for the first three times you exceed 300 GB included in the data plan during a 12 month period


FirebirdTN

join:2012-12-13
Brighton, TN
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Geot

said by Geot :

300 GB is a lot of data.

Maybe for a single user I'm sure it is. But for a family of four (or more) whose sole source of entertainment is rabbit ears for local channels, but streaming HD media for everything else.

Couple that with working from home on occasion via VPN or remote, and the typical web surfing, email, etc.

And I don't even use the "cloud" anything. I prefer to backup my files locally, but if the house ever burned down.....

Anyway, It all adds up quick. I wish I could see what I have been using the last few months, but my "meter" has been broken, and even right now, as I am under the cap is just stuck on "pending update" and doesn't tell me a damn thing.

But I will bet I am between 300-400.

-Alan


Geot

@verizon.net
reply to NetFixer

said by NetFixer:

You obviously are not familiar with the video download services offered by Amazon. Their downloaded video files are DRM limited to the number of simultaneous viewing devices, but there is no DMCA restriction on where you store the files (or how many archived copies you might wish to keep). And Amazon is just an example; there are other legitimate download services with similar rules.

LOL you obviously are not familiar with the notion that no-one cancels their cable TV and then waits months and hopes that a service like Amazon will actually add their favorite TV shows to their online collection so they can down load them. Even if such a person did exist, what are the odds that someone so disinterested in TV would want to back them up to the cloud?


Shawks

@50.7.1.x

Yeah, things like Amazon are not a replacement for TV service, they complement it. Besides who are we kidding, 90% or more off the TV shows "downloaded" are pirated.



TAZ

@qwest.net
reply to Geot

said by Geot :

Good points...content providers are killing them on TV and voice is a barren wasteland between people going cell only and various VOIP low cost provders that run around $5/mo for unlimited LD

Agreed. Between the constantly increasing carriage fees and the outdated channel model, I don't see a long-term future for TV services as they are now. Comcast is happy to increase TV prices to pay for higher carriage fees, while other providers try to play the PR game to avoid increasing prices, but the problem is that both approaches result in reaching the "it's just not worth it now" threshold and people drop those services.

The channel model is outdated because viewing a specific channel at a specific time to watch something, is just archaic IMO. The 21st century approach is to decide what you want to watch and watch it, whenever and wherever. The on-demand services can probably fill in some gaps here, though.

Let's not forget the other shortcoming of their short-term approach: customer service. While this may be a more sensitive topic, cable companies and telecoms in general have horrible customer service. (Having dealt with Comcast quite a bit several years back, I would call their CS the worst I have ever received from anyone.) What this means is they have no goodwill with consumers. This isn't sustainable. Competition is improving, albeit very, very slowly. We're seeing this with municipal broadband efforts and, to a much lesser extent, focused efforts like Google Fiber. When this happens, consumers will remember how they've been treated by the (former) oligopolist, and given the choice between competitive services and the former oligopolist, all offering similar services and pricing, I guarantee the choice will not be the former oligopolist.

The execs would be smart to take that into account and maybe look a little into the future. Quit taking advantage of their current market position, look long-term, improve service quality, improve customer service, be reasonable with pricing, and maybe in 10 years (or whatever) when there's some actual competition, their customers will remember how much they like their cable company and will have a reason to stick with them.

How much do any of you want to bet Provo and Chattanooga won't be seeing this cap?


TAZ

@qwest.net

I should also add that their poor customer service, or as I'd prefer to call it poor customer goodwill, will affect their short-term growth.

You see them already trying to get into smaller markets like home security and home automation. I consider these to be last-ditch "growth" efforts. Obtaining any kind of market share here will be impossible for them. Not only are these long-established markets, they are relatively easy to enter (relative to, say, trenching cables throughout a city) with a lot of competition. Nobody who has dealt with Comcast CS is going to choose them for any service that has a reasonable competitor.

The absolute last place I would want to deal with if I had problems with a security system, would be Comcast CS.



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to Geot

said by Geot :

LOL you obviously are not familiar with the notion that no-one cancels their cable TV and then waits months and hopes that a service like Amazon will actually add their favorite TV shows to their online collection so they can down load them. Even if such a person did exist, what are the odds that someone so disinterested in TV would want to back them up to the cloud?

I "cut the cord" in ... oh! Wait! I never had a cord to cut!!! No cable TV service ever in my life; nor satellite either, for that matter. But I did catch a couple of episodes of a TV show in current production at a relative's house. How long do I have to wait for that show to be available on Hulu? I can typically stream the latest episode the day after it is broadcast.

I am a pretty light "watcher"; maybe a couple of episodes per week of a couple of shows. Not nearly enough to warrant $80 per month to be tied to a cable, or satellite service. Even so, I hit about 31 GB on my own:

Latest bandwidth usage report; very light use.


Multiply that by 10 for the average person watching a couple of hours per day during the week, and four hours per day on weekends, and one person will hit that 300 GB cap. That is not considering an average four person household.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to Shawks

said by Shawks :

Yeah, things like Amazon are not a replacement for TV service, they complement it. Besides who are we kidding, 90% or more off the TV shows "downloaded" are pirated.

Which is irrelevant to the issue of caps. If I watched shows as heavily as my late maternal grandfather did, when he was my age, I could easily, legally, exceed the 300 GB cap by streaming alone.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

shutdownhnow

join:2013-07-10
Murfreesboro, TN
reply to shades

does this reset after 12 months? i.e. if I went over in Jan, Feb, and March, can I go over again next Jan?



NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage
reply to Geot

said by Geot :

said by NetFixer:

You obviously are not familiar with the video download services offered by Amazon. Their downloaded video files are DRM limited to the number of simultaneous viewing devices, but there is no DMCA restriction on where you store the files (or how many archived copies you might wish to keep). And Amazon is just an example; there are other legitimate download services with similar rules.

LOL you obviously are not familiar with the notion that no-one cancels their cable TV and then waits months and hopes that a service like Amazon will actually add their favorite TV shows to their online collection so they can down load them. Even if such a person did exist, what are the odds that someone so disinterested in TV would want to back them up to the cloud?

And someone obviously doesn't understand the topic being discussed in this thread. You are the only one talking about cable TV and/or "favorite" TV shows. FWIW, it has been so long since I actually watched a TV show over OTA or Comcast/Xfinity TV service, that I can't even remember if I had a "favorite" (but whatever it might have been, it is very unlikely that it would still be available over the Comcast/Xfinity TV service). This thread is about the usage caps being enforced for Comcast/Xfinity HSI service, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Comcast/Xfinity TV service.
--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.


Geot

@verizon.net

You two need to go back and read. I was responding to a poster who was talking about backing up to the cloud DOWNLOADS as a way of blowing the cap. I specifically said "downloading shows, as opposed to streaming". When you stream, backing up to the cloud is nonsensical.

In terms of streaming, I still don't think 300GB is a big issue. Rather than take a number, classify it as "light" and multiple it by 10, I'll go with real numbers that I saw last summer. 2 kids watching a ton of Netflix, each on their own TV, plus the rest of the family. High water mark was 180 GB for August when it was really hot and they spent way too many days as house cats. BTW I have the same router.



NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage

said by Geot :

You two need to go back and read. I was responding to a poster who was talking about backing up to the cloud DOWNLOADS as a way of blowing the cap. I specifically said "downloading shows, as opposed to streaming". When you stream, backing up to the cloud is nonsensical.

Yes, someone does indeed need to go back and read what they posted, and what I responded to (and what you have tap danced around in your replies):

said by Geot :

Can you amass TBs of data? Sure, but downloading shows, as opposed to streaming, and then wanting to backup them up has other issues, mainly DMCA. The argument that you want to blow your cap and not pay extra while violating DMCA is not going to get you very far.

Your attempt to derail the thread with bogus and unfounded accusations of DMCA violations is disingenuous and is as irrelevant to this thread's topic as your misdirection about cable TV cord cutting. This thread's topic is totally a discussion about not liking Comcast's expansion of a 300GB monthly usage cap. What a customer uses the connection for is their business, and your assertion that the only way to go over the cap is with illegal activity is at best ridiculous.
--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.


Geot

@verizon.net

You can try and re-classify my comments in your mind anyway you wish. It doesn't change them.

Nor does it change the fact that people with crazy high data usage numbers are typically downloading pirated material or streaming video for hours on end. They represent less than 1% of an ISPs customer base, which makes the accusations that Comcast is doing this to make more money absurd. How long would a genius in mgmt survive pitching program changes that target 1% of the customer base?

"XFINITY Internet customers’ median monthly data usage is 17 GB per month. "

»customer.comcast.com/help-and-su···rk-usage



TAZ

@qwest.net

said by Geot :

Nor does it change the fact that people with crazy high data usage numbers are typically downloading pirated material or streaming video for hours on end. They represent less than 1% of an ISPs customer base, which makes the accusations that Comcast is doing this to make more money absurd. How long would a genius in mgmt survive pitching program changes that target 1% of the customer base?

Actually, I think this is one of the few things Comcast is looking long-term on. (Just a shame it's not to their customers' favor.)

300 GB may be a lot _now_ (my own opinion on this is irrelevant right now, and I personally am not looking to get involved in a debate over that). But the long-term intent is to make Internet video consumption more costly.

As Internet video services get better, obtain rights to more shows, improve pricing models, video quality (and by extension, size, with the exception of some codec improvements), etc. the percentage of current cable customers who cancel cable and switch to that, will increase. That's what Comcast is looking out for because they want to make damn sure they can still get a cut of that revenue.

Comcast isn't afraid of this usage costing them a bunch of money or anything like that. It's clear that they haven't run into any real problems for the past several months where the caps haven't been enforced.


NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage
reply to Geot

said by Geot :

You can try and re-classify my comments in your mind anyway you wish. It doesn't change them.

Nor does it change the fact that people with crazy high data usage numbers are typically downloading pirated material or streaming video for hours on end.

No, nothing can change your actual posted words and your continued ridiculous assertion that anyone who exceeds the 300GB cap must be violating federal law (and not many would agree that 300GB per month is "crazy high data usage").
--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to NormanS

said by NormanS:

cap

There is no cap. You can use as much as you want. You just pay for it.

Family of 4 uses 600GB? Cool. That's an extra $60. Much less than 2x the service cost for the service, and only charged "on demand" should they need it.

It's not a cap. It's metered billing. A cap is where you get cut off after using that much. This is what you all have been asking for. Uncapped service. Yay!
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 recommendation

said by JohnInSJ:

Family of 4 uses 600GB? Cool. That's an extra $60. Much less than 2x the service ...

"Metered billing" is selling by the byte delivered, which isn't the basic model of Internet service. The basic model is a flat monthly fee for a predetermined rate of delivery. 600 GB isn't "twice the service", because the service is offered as a rate of delivery, not a volume of delivery. The volume of data is not even mentioned in the plan description on the web site.

If you want metered billing, start demanding that the data volume, and delivery fee, be cited in the advertising, and on the order site.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

FirebirdTN

join:2012-12-13
Brighton, TN
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Geot

said by Geot :

Nor does it change the fact that people with crazy high data usage numbers are typically downloading pirated material or streaming video for hours on end.

A little harsh, no? I'm going to have to go with NetFixer on this one. While us "high bandwidth consuming cord cutters" maybe in the minority now...I'll bet as time progresses, you will see more and more people jump from sat/cable to streaming. It is so much more convenient.

I do take some offense to the accusation that anyone using that much data MUST be pirates...or glued to the TV. As I said above, i have a 2 daughters, one young that watches Cartoons, and the other teenage who watches her shows. Then my wife has her shows that she watches, and I have mine (Thank you NetFlix for separate profiles).

I have NEVER downloaded a single show. I also do not do the bittorent thing. The only things I really download that would be considered large are equipment updates (windows, bluray, etc), and the occasional Linux distro.

But if you think about it, someone who downloaded movies and tv shows would actually use *LESS* data. I have a few shows that I have watched over and over again on Netflix, with each run eating up BW. Had I downloaded them, I could watch them as much as I wanted, but only used the same amount of BW as watching them once...

-Alan

PS As I mentioned above...Comcast fix my damn meter so I can see what I am using, since I am now in the test market!!!


TiredOfThis

@fda.gov
reply to Geot

said by Geot :

"XFINITY Internet customers’ median monthly data usage is 17 GB per month. "

It is worth distinguishing between "median" and "average". The low median suggests a large number of people doing nothing but reading email and some limited web-browsing.

The "average" data usage is probably *much* higher. It is interesting that Comcast doesn't care to provide that.

Like they say, there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics"...


Anyway, I see the 300Gb cap as *COMPLETELY* unacceptable. I'll switch to FIOS if the cap is imposed by Comcast. If FIOS too imposes a cap, we'll dump watching Netflix, etc., and probably "cable TV" too, out of spite. Broadcast TV is absolute GARBAGE anyway; over-the-air broadcast is fine, supplemented with Redbox rentals.

rody_44
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA
Reviews:
·Comcast

If you switch to fios you get to deal with this copy and paste from the fios forum.

Yep--new installs, limited area, limited time.

I pay $120/mo for internet & TV bundle, of which $38 is internet.

Vz says if I go to internet only it'll be $104.95.

The only solution is to cancel Verizon entirely


FirebirdTN

join:2012-12-13
Brighton, TN
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to TiredOfThis

said by TiredOfThis :

we'll dump watching Netflix, etc.

Although I have no info to back me up on this....this quoted bit I'm convinced is the reason that most ISPs are moving towards caps/limits.

They are trying to save a dying business model.

Back on topic, I got to thinking about it, and I can understand both sides of the argument. It really isn't fair for a single person who uses very little to pay the same as a high BW consuming family.

BUT...in my test market it makes no sense. Whether you have the lowest speed tier, or the highest, we all have the same cap. The only thing the higher speed tier gains you is bragging rights, and the ability to hit the cap sooner.

-Alan

rody_44
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA
Reviews:
·Comcast

4 edits

Tv as we know it is going to die, no doubt about that. But i really dont think the caps have anything to do with the video. The caps are simply a way of generating more revenue. As a lite user im sure im a majority of there customer base. Bottom line is im not willing to pay any more. I just cant justify paying more for the little i use it. That really only leaves the people left that use it more to raise additional revenue. It comes down to they are going to get it where they can. Thats the high users of the service. What i cant understand about this whole thing is im a heavy streaming user to the tune of no less than thirty hours a month and never even break 125 of the cap. The only thing i can think is its because i only stream sd and no hd even tho i have a hd tv. Things as simple as water is metered and since its metered people make decisions based on metering it. I have no problems basing the same principals to broadband and actually prefer it.

Hell probably hit upwards of 100 hours streaming some months. My highest month has never been more than around 150 of the cap. Anyone care to do the math and explain to me how streaming sd video is even going to get close to 300. Im a average lite user with subscriptions to netflix, amazon plus and just dropped hula. I also subscribe to pay tv. Sorry but in my eyes netflix , hula or Amazon are no substitute for pay tv. Just not enough local news and sports for me. Not to mention the most popular series take forever to reach them. Or if they do get there fast they want over a dollar a episode to watch. You might be able to convince me its a Netflix, Amazon killer. Since clearly if i give up high speed i give up them also. Than i just keep pay tv and use VOD. As it is tho everything stays as long as the price of my internet stays the same. If it goes up another 2 dollars anytime soon tho im out and i doubt im alone in that thinking.

Expand your moderator at work

FirebirdTN

join:2012-12-13
Brighton, TN
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to rody_44

Re: [Caps] Comcast New 300GB Monthly Limit And Overage Charges

said by rody_44:

Things as simple as water is metered and since its metered people make decisions based on metering it. I have no problems basing the same principals to broadband and actually prefer it

Funny you should mention that. In another thread, I said something along the lines of I believe eventually internet access is going to be truly metered, just like our other utilities. I was basically told that since public utilities are governed by regulations, and there is no mandate for ISP metering it wouldn't happen. Also, there was some discussion about data being pushed to you whether you requested it or not.

Okay, so there is some bugs to iron out, but I still believe once all this shakes out and streaming TV becomes the new "norm", that we will eventually get to a point of truly metered billing.

-Alan