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fx_woes

@comcast.net
reply to darcilicious

Re: [Dev Build] Australis is landing in Firefox Nightly

said by darcilicious:

Good golly, it's a browser. There are far worse problems in the world.

Is there no room for criticism of Firefox or Mozilla here? This forum isn't just for fanboys (or fangirls). I'm generally a fan of Firefox, but I'm becoming increasingly critical as the years go on. I do not think I'm at all alone in this! I'm getting extremely wary of Google's influence on Firefox, and the web in general.


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS

1 edit

Plenty of room for criticism, not so much for hyperbole You conveniently left out the original statement that I quoted -- and that's what I was referring to.
--
♬ Dragon of good fortune struggles with the trickster Fox ♬



fx_woes

@comcast.net

said by darcilicious:

Plenty of room for criticism, not so much for hyperbole You conveniently left out your original statement that I quoted -- and that's what I was referring to.

That wasn't me darcilicious. I try my best to avoid hyperbole because I don't care for it either. I just put up a lengthy post about my issues with Google and Mozilla. Maybe you can read it and give some feedback? Like I said, I've generally been a fan of Firefox, but my old enthusiasm is turning into wariness as Google's revenue % grows, while Mozilla seem to be hellbent on imitating Chrome.


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4

Yes, sorry, I realized that and have already fixed my post.



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to darcilicious

This copying of Chrome's UI is a false one. It's a trend of browsers to create more viewport space, the space you see pages at, so everyone is trying to get things out of the way. That's why the bars are getting smaller, moved around, and so on. But a lot of the complaints are like looking at two cars and saying one is copying the other. But a car looks like a car no matter what.



darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS

Aaaaand... we'll just have to agree to disagree -- if only because my Honda Fit doesn't look like a Porsche 911 despite the components they have in common -- they are easily distinguishable from one another. Chrome and Australis, not so much.
--
♬ Dragon of good fortune struggles with the trickster Fox ♬



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO

Nope. A car is a car if you look head on to the grill. Same with browsers. Yeah a curve here and there but they all look alike for the reason I gave.


BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3
reply to darcilicious

Click for full size
Really? It's not so different. Here's my Firefox, it's not a stretch to move the couple things, and round a few corners.

I do use an extension to force the tabs into the titlebar, and that makes it even more like chrome.


therube

join:2004-11-11
Randallstown, MD

1 recommendation

reply to howardfine

> Nope. A car is a car if you look head on to the grill.

When I was young (a long time ago, in the age of "Datsun" & before), I could identify, distinctly, EVERY car on the road.

Today, yes, a car is a car. It's like who cares any more. All the personality is gone.

And yes, that is what the browser & OS too are beginning to look like. Everything homogenized, somogenized. You can't tell what "app" you're in. Internet Explorer could just as well be Windows Explorer, they look the same. And if FF looks like Chrome, looks like ... then at that point, it becomes, "who cares". And why bother.

Yesterday I downloaded & took a quick look at "Austraiis" & was like, eh, a browser. Then, uh, where did my (extension) icons go? Then, uh, where is my component bar? Then I was like, eh, a browser.

Me, I'll stick with the one that stands out, that is different, that retains its personality & works they way I want it to work.

Now where did I park my Peugeot (504D, ah, what a car )!



chachazz
Premium
join:2003-12-14
kudos:9
Reviews:
·TELUS
reply to anonome

said by anonome :

From what I've read, Australis "breaks" all existing themes and any other add-ons having anything to do with tab structure

TabMixPlus Dev build works pretty well on Nightly Australis.

Devs are starting..Noia 4 - Australis compatible beta versions
--
Gladiator Security Forum


anonome

@verizon.net
reply to darcilicious

Apparently no room for any kind of humor either, huh.

Yeah, there are plenty of bigger problems in the world... I can't fix them, so I'll just comment on how ridiculous it is that Mozilla has spent years on the garbage that is Australis and gives these incredibly dumb reasons for how wonderful it is. The reality: it's change for the sake of change (in order to look more like Google Chrome). Apparently they wish they worked for Google. I use Firefox because of Gecko. That's it. As long as they stay with Gecko, I'll stay with Firefox... through every stupid or pointless UI change (because I can always change it back, as I've been doing for years).



anonome

@verizon.net
reply to howardfine

None of which requires "Australis". And as far as bars getting smaller: have you seen the new findbar? HUGE! ...7 pixels bigger--that 25% BIGGER.



SmokChsr
Who let the magic smoke out?
Premium
join:2006-03-17
Saint Augustine, FL
reply to chachazz

Is this saying we'll have to install addon's to get the basic functionality that we have now?

PS, I like Firefox because it's FireFox, it's Not IE, it's Not Chrome, if I liked the others I would use them. I want a UI that is intuitive not one that is "cute".



fx_woes

@comcast.net
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

This copying of Chrome's UI is a false one. It's a trend of browsers to create more viewport space, the space you see pages at, so everyone is trying to get things out of the way. That's why the bars are getting smaller, moved around, and so on.

So you can see even more white space?

Is there somehow a lack of viewport space available in the browser for typical desktop and laptop users? Most desktop users now have 22+ inch monitors with fairly high resolutions. Many are using 24, 27, and even 30" screens. Is there a lack of viewport space for these users? How is removing some menus and buttons going to allow them any more useful page view? I'm running 1366 x 768 on this laptop and I don't typically feel that I'm lacking viewable space. If anything there's way too much empty white space on websites. On a 27" monitor it's absurd how much white space there is on most websites.

Wouldn't focusing on the white space issue, and poor/outdated web dev practices in general, be a better avenue to help bring more content in focus? Browser UI has been a solved problem for nearly 20 years now. This whole trend is just hotshot UX designers justifying their paychecks.


fx_woes

@comcast.net
reply to therube

said by therube:

Me, I'll stick with the one that stands out, that is different, that retains its personality & works they way I want it to work.

Which browser is that? It's sure not Firefox!


fx_woes

@comcast.net
reply to anonome

It's really only the addon selection and community which keeps me with Firefox. At least for the moment I plan to stay with Firefox also, but Google (and Mozilla by extension) won't be getting any eyeballs, information, or revenue from me! They may get these things from everybody else in the world but not me. I've removed the Google search engine from Firefox and use something else. I filter all known Google domains, block all their ads, and refuse to use their services.

I strongly encourage everybody else to do the same, whichever browser you use.



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to fx_woes

said by fx_woes :

So you can see even more white space?

Whitespace is a designers thing, not a browser thing. Browsers vendors have no control over what designers do with the viewport space.

said by fx_woes :

Most desktop users now have 22+ inch monitors with fairly high resolutions. Many are using 24, 27, and even 30" screens. Is there a lack of viewport space for these users?

28% to 50% of all web site visitors use their phone or mobile device and that percentage is climbing rapidly.

said by fx_woes :

Wouldn't focusing on the white space issue, and poor/outdated web dev practices in general, be a better avenue to help bring more content in focus?

Like I said, browser vendors have no control over how designers use the space in the viewport. It's not their job.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to fx_woes

said by fx_woes :

I've removed the Google search engine from Firefox and use something else. I filter all known Google domains, block all their ads, and refuse to use their services.

It's called "crippling yourself" or "shooting yourself in the foot". Most of us choose not to do that.


fx_woes

@comcast.net
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

Whitespace is a designers thing, not a browser thing. Browsers vendors have no control over what designers do with the viewport space.

Endless tweaking of the browser UI is stupid, bottom line, and is just UX designers justifying their paychecks. Like I said, browser UI been a solved problem for 20 years now. It's stupid to think removing some menus and bars/buttons is going create any significant view area, when half of the screen area on most websites is wasted white space anyway.

said by howardfine:

28% to 50% of all web site visitors use their phone or mobile device and that percentage is climbing rapidly.

So what? I'm talking about desktop and laptop usage, which I made fairly clear. If this stupid UX trend was only taking place on their mobile platforms, then you'd have a point, but it's not just there. Viewable space is a premium on mobile devices obviously, but I wasn't talking about mobile anything. This space premium is not the case for desktops, and despite the hype and nonsense, many people out there actually do still spend significant time on regular computers.

I just checked sitting here using a 27" monitor. The Firefox UI takes up about a thumb width at the top. That includes title/tab bar, URL bar, and bookmarks bar. The idea that this space needs to be further minimized is absolutely ludicrous! OK, let's minimize and streamline this already minimal space down further, so that I can see a thumb width more of web content? That's a ridiculous argument.

said by howardfine:

Like I said, browser vendors have no control over how designers use the space in the viewport. It's not their job.

Let's not call them designers OK? Most web devs are utter hacks and labeling them designers is uncalled for. That's not a label 95% of them deserve in the least. UX designers on the other hand, they are very deserving of the label because they are definitely lost in their own world of nonsense.

But yeah, I know, it's the web "designers" job! Too bad most web developers are complete amateurs who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. The so called professionals are just as bad - they're largely the ones who think Mozilla and Google walk on water and can do no wrong. They're the ones pushing for this kind of crap, and quickly jumping onto every trend that comes down the pipeline.

BTW, are you a web developer? That would explain things.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO

said by fx_woes :

If this stupid UX trend was only taking place on their mobile platforms, then you'd have a point, but it's not just there.

Have you seen how the address bar scrolls up and disappears on your phone?
said by fx_woes :

despite the hype and nonsense, many people out there actually do still spend significant time on regular computers.

It's not hype and nonsense when it's true.
quote:
Traffic from phones outpaced that of tablet for browsing sites, with phones accounting for 26.6 percent of visits compared with 15.3 percent for tablets, according to IBM data harvested from 800 retailers' e-commerce sites.
So that means about 50% of all online e-commerce browsing and buying was done on a mobile device.

said by fx_woes :

I just checked sitting here using a 27" monitor.

The purpose of a bigger screen is not so you can make your applications run bigger. It's to let you put more on your desktop unless you just want to sit back farther in your chair. And when you sit back farther, your view of the screen shrinks and your thumb example does not apply.
said by fx_woes :

Let's not call them designers OK? Most web devs are utter hacks and labeling them designers is uncalled for.

That's why a lot of sites are designed by graphic designers and not web developers. You're assuming all sites are designed by the developers who wrote the code and that's not true.
said by fx_woes :

The so called professionals are just as bad - they're largely the ones who think Mozilla and Google walk on water and can do no wrong.

It was Mozilla, then Google, that advanced the web far beyond the mess Microsoft made of it. That's why they get the respect and Microsoft gets the IE hate.
said by fx_woes :

BTW, are you a web developer?

My little company has been doing this for 10 years.


fx_woes

@comcast.net

I'm not continuing in this debate any further. I've made my arguments and you've made yours. Good day.


EdmundGerber

join:2010-01-04
kudos:1

2 recommendations

reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

It's called "crippling yourself" or "shooting yourself in the foot". Most of us choose not to do that.

Most = sheep, if you blindly grant google carte blanche access. I'd prefer to be in the other group, that values their privacy. But you carry on being a happy, logged consumer.


therube

join:2004-11-11
Randallstown, MD
reply to fx_woes

> Which browser is that? It's sure not Firefox!

SeaMonkey.



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to EdmundGerber

said by EdmundGerber:

if you blindly grant google carte blanche access.

So which services do you blindly grant access to (as if you really think no one else sifts through your stuff)? Or are you saying you use no services like Google's which circles around to what I said: you're crippling yourself or shooting yourself in the foot because you are 1) not using valuable services at all or 2) using inferior services.

I am not the "sheep" who cower in fear over some anonymous poster who said you're supposed to be cowering in fear. Every retail organization and bank knows far more about me and you than Google does.


anonome

@verizon.net
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

So that means about 50% of all online e-commerce browsing and buying was done on a mobile device.

Well, if I were dumb enough to spend hundreds of dollars on an outrageously expensive "smart" toy device (because I can't survive without being "connected" 24/7) and its accompanying outrageously expensive service plans, then I might want to use it for every little thing I do even if it isn't the best method available for the task at hand. ("Woohoo! look at me, look at me... I'm mo-bile!!")

(Being wireless in your home is not the same thing as being mobile.)


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4

Your personal rant, er preferences, has nothing to do with the point being made: mobile usage is real and can't be ignored.
--
♬ Dragon of good fortune struggles with the trickster Fox ♬



chachazz
Premium
join:2003-12-14
kudos:9
Reviews:
·TELUS

Note: Nightly Australis (UI) is staying with Nightly Channel...not moving onto the Aurora channel on Dec 9. It is tentatively slated for release in Firefox 29 on April 29, 2014.
--
Gladiator Security Forum



carpetshark3
Premium
join:2004-02-12
Idledale, CO
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

said by EdmundGerber:

if you blindly grant google carte blanche access.

So which services do you blindly grant access to (as if you really think no one else sifts through your stuff)? Or are you saying you use no services like Google's which circles around to what I said: you're crippling yourself or shooting yourself in the foot because you are 1) not using valuable services at all or 2) using inferior services.

I am not the "sheep" who cower in fear over some anonymous poster who said you're supposed to be cowering in fear. Every retail organization and bank knows far more about me and you than Google does.

I think Apple and Windows fanboys might just disagree. There's nothing wrong with banning Google search and using Bing or whatever Yahoo calls itself now. They all collect anyway.

About the appearance of Chrome - I don't like it. I want my menu bars where I can find them, and I want tab permissions so I can turn off images per site on the fly. I like the tab bar, and the separate box for searching. I do use Iron and that copied all the crap from Google "Boo, you have no extensions" I only use Iron for one site, and to check if an error in FX is something I haven't allowed in Noscript or an real problem like the site being down.

I do have an Android Phone, I won't use the built in browser, I use Boat. Boat will emulate a desktop. I've seen articles and comments missing in the mobile version of some sites, they are not really censored since they appear on the desktop version. I don't use the phone the way Google envisions anyway. It's a reference library that makes phone calls, texts, and can look up info on the net. The apps can't be installed on a dumb phone. I use Startpage as the search engine - it's bookmarked. I just don't believe in putting all my eggs in one basket. I use Flickr rather than Picasa, and Wordpress rather than Blogger.

I don't stream video, or music, or play games simply because I'm not interested.
I have nothing personal on the phone except contacts. The phone is rooted and NFC is gone. If I want to pay a bill or bank online, I use a Linux computer. It annoys a lot of the industry just like using Netscape rather than IE bugged everyone years ago, and that's why I do it. I didn't even use Netscape, I bought Opera.

Maps, location, Now, anything social is gone. I used to road rally, I prefer a printed map, I don't like AI yakking at me, and I won't support most of the local brick and mortar since they never carry what I want. So I don't do targetted ads. It's a waste of my time and bandwidth.

Since I have the Android phone, I use Play. I usually search on the computer so I can read every bit of the blurb, comments, etc. easily. Google, in its wisdom, while trying to promote +, hid the logout button behind the box with the message to join +. You had to dork with it to log out. That annoyed me so much that I now will be ornery.

Where I refuse to be a sheep is being unable to pick and choose the services I want. I don't like anyone bundling everything so you have to jump through hoops to make a choice. I don't think bundling services is wrong if a lot like them. But I think those services should be opt-in. Use all or part, just as you wish.

If Google is censoring -
»news.techeye.net/business/google···-android

I can put the swear words in my dictionary and they will show up as a choice. I don't use autocomplete.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO

said by carpetshark3:

using Bing or whatever Yahoo calls itself now.

Yahoo is called Yahoo and always has been. They use the Bing search engine but that's going to change if it hasn't already, iirc.

said by carpetshark3:

I've seen articles and comments missing in the mobile version of some sites, they are not really censored since they appear on the desktop version.

Some sites present a mobile version where such things are not displayed up front as on the desktop site for space reasons.

said by carpetshark3:

It annoys a lot of the industry just like using Netscape rather than IE bugged everyone years ago

My broker, Scottrade, hated IE with a passion and would advise clients not to use it back then and to use Netscape.


StyxKee

join:2001-07-05
GTA, Canada
reply to chachazz

With the recent landing of Firefox "Holly" (Nightly 28.0a1 build with classic theme rather than the horrid Australis), I am dumping the x64 all together and moved over to Holly x86 builds. That way, my Nightly will at least get some updates, rather than stuck on 2013-11-17 before Australis landed.

»ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/···3-holly/
(edit: added link to the Nightly Holly build)