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sgobiraj
join:2013-03-26
Ajax, ON

sgobiraj

Member

50/10 FTTN + Sagemcom + Stinger OSLAM

I had contracted service back in August, 2013 for the 50/10 when I moved to Ajax into my first house. I've always stayed away from DSL since I used to live in an apartment and found out how bad DSL is with line quality. Always been a cable guy since but with the 50/10 speeds for the same price as cable 45/4 it was too tempting. I didn't know about all these issues poising the incumbents' VDSL2 infrastructure (Stinger + Sagemcom). I found out the hard way that I am on the Stinger OSLAM. Start didn't have the SmartRG modems when I contracted service and neither did I know about the Sagemcom issues. So I currently have the Sagemcom and have waited for the firmware update that was supposed to address the issues (True bridge mode, sync-no-surf, etc.). Even though I haven't gotten the update yet it seems like HiVolt confirmed that it hasn't fixed anything. So that is a bust and seems like they're incapable of resolving the issue. They need to start hiring capable engineers for the team that deals with firmwares. I myself am a computer engineer and if they gave me the source code I can probably figure it out. In fact I think a lot of smart people on this forum could figure it out if we had the source code.

Frustration aside, I have a couple of questions:

1) Does anyone know where to get a SmartRG modem for a cheaper price either through an ISP that sells to public or a distributor? It was unfortunate that I had also purchased a Sagemcom which is piece of s*** because it was the only approved modem. So I don't want to spend another $120 through Start again just 3 months in after purchasing a Sagemcom.

2) I am only getting 7 mbps upload. My line stats as per Start with my Sagemcom is:
Profile V53952-26944_8128-2048_00011 on OSLAM
Rate 53928 / 8128 (98% / 66%)

Can someone explain what the OSLAM is and if I can try going on a higher upload profile and not suffer any consequences?

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

1 edit

HiVolt

Premium Member

If I'm reading this correctly, your upstream RCO (Relative Capacity) is 66%, which should be more than fine to raise it to the 10meg upstream (11320 sync).

The downstream is pretty damn close at 98%, but if you havent had any issues, its probably fine.

As for the Sagemcom firmware, we have yet to see the "wholesale specific" Sagemcom firmware. The one I tested was Bell's latest retail firmware, still Bell branded and still suffers from the same deficiencies.

Bell will probably never release the wholesale firmware, now that wholesale ISP's have gotten the SmartRG and I bet it will become a staple amonst most wholesale ISP's that will sell VDSL.
adit7
join:2013-04-02
Oakville, ON

adit7 to sgobiraj

Member

to sgobiraj
Start start selling the modem only since SmartRG became available, so if you have a Sagemcom you are renting it.You should be able to return and buy a SmartRG (and save the rental cost anyway). I was in the same situation I was contemplating to switch to VDSL since June but after reading about Sagemcom problems (and the fact that you had to rent it at that time, I prefer to buy my equipment) I decided to wait. Glad that Start was the first company to have it , pretty pleased with the service in general, no disconnections and getting constantly the advertised speeds.(in fact a little bit over )
sgobiraj
join:2013-03-26
Ajax, ON

sgobiraj to HiVolt

Member

to HiVolt
HiVolt thanks for the quick reply.

I had posed the question to Start before and they said that it probably is the best profile since I'm on an OSLAM. Is this because they're worried that increasing my upstream will push the RCO for downstream higher? I haven't had issues with my download. In fact I've run high torrent activity and only hit a sync-no-surf once where I had to reboot the modem. This is probably because I'm on the interleaved profile. Could you explain to me what the OSLAM is and how it is different from just a remote?
sgobiraj

sgobiraj to adit7

Member

to adit7
said by adit7:

Start start selling the modem only since SmartRG became available, so if you have a Sagemcom you are renting it.You should be able to return and buy a SmartRG (and save the rental cost anyway).

adit, I actually bought the modem on kijiji because I didn't want to rent the modem. It was a dumb move now that I have experienced the Sagemcom first hand. Should've just rented it if I knew about the issues and that a better capable modem was going to be offered soon.

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt to sgobiraj

Premium Member

to sgobiraj
said by sgobiraj:

HiVolt thanks for the quick reply.

I had posed the question to Start before and they said that it probably is the best profile since I'm on an OSLAM. Is this because they're worried that increasing my upstream will push the RCO for downstream higher? I haven't had issues with my download. In fact I've run high torrent activity and only hit a sync-no-surf once where I had to reboot the modem. This is probably because I'm on the interleaved profile. Could you explain to me what the OSLAM is and how it is different from just a remote?

OSLAM is the Lucent Stinger (sometimes called IKNS because of Ikanos chipset) remote. They are the older first generation VDSL2 remotes Bell has. The newer Alcatel ISAM 7330 remotes are much better, and allow standard VDSL2 modems to be used, while the Stinger require custom based firmware to make it work.

But the Lucent Stinger is capable of doing 50/10 provided the line is clean enough.

I don't want to undermine what the start.ca techs have told you, but I think wholesale ISP's are able to change the profiles in their tools, and I believe the tool will not let them choose a profile if the stats show its too low.

But changing upstream will not affect your downstream, even if it's close to max capacity.

I don't see the harm in trying the 50/10 profile, if they can do it on their side without involving opening a ticket to Bell.
adit7
join:2013-04-02
Oakville, ON

1 edit

adit7 to HiVolt

Member

to HiVolt
I agree. Whoever developed the "Bell specific" Sagemcom firmware is long gone. They have new people who will not do major changes and probably have no idea where the problem is, if not it would be solved by now (speaking about sync-no-surf which is a software problem). I worked developing firmware and I know I would not touch code developed by somebody else, is easier to start from scratch.
I read in another thread somebody for the Telecom company (that second installer guy, probably) says that in the last week he had a lot of installs and 75% of customers had the SmartRG modem.
sgobiraj
join:2013-03-26
Ajax, ON

sgobiraj to HiVolt

Member

to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

said by sgobiraj:

HiVolt thanks for the quick reply.

I had posed the question to Start before and they said that it probably is the best profile since I'm on an OSLAM. Is this because they're worried that increasing my upstream will push the RCO for downstream higher? I haven't had issues with my download. In fact I've run high torrent activity and only hit a sync-no-surf once where I had to reboot the modem. This is probably because I'm on the interleaved profile. Could you explain to me what the OSLAM is and how it is different from just a remote?

OSLAM is the Lucent Stinger (sometimes called IKNS because of Ikanos chipset) remote. They are the older first generation VDSL2 remotes Bell has. The newer Alcatel ISAM 7330 remotes are much better, and allow standard VDSL2 modems to be used, while the Stinger require custom based firmware to make it work.

But the Lucent Stinger is capable of doing 50/10 provided the line is clean enough.

I don't want to undermine what the start.ca techs have told you, but I think wholesale ISP's are able to change the profiles in their tools, and I believe the tool will not let them choose a profile if the stats show its too low.

But changing upstream will not affect your downstream, even if it's close to max capacity.

I don't see the harm in trying the 50/10 profile, if they can do it on their side without involving opening a ticket to Bell.

Thanks HiVolt. I've heard of the Lucent Stinger and Alcatel 7330. Also that the Stinger uses a non ITU G.993.2 compliant implementation and that is why it requires specific firmware. I've never heard OSLAM or ISAM used before. When the tech told me I was on an OSLAM he said that the OSLAM is used as an extension and therefore I am maxing out capacity. Because of this I thought the OSLAM was something completely different from the Stinger. Thanks for the clarification.

I'll also give the the techs another try to increase my profile. Also have you heard anything about the SmartRG having a max upstream of 7mb on a Stinger unlike the Sagemcom which could get the full 10mb? The tech mentioned this as well.
sgobiraj

sgobiraj to adit7

Member

to adit7
said by adit7:

I agree. Whoever developed the "Bell specific" Sagemcom firmware is long gone. They have new people who will not do major changes and probably have no idea where the problem is, if not it would be solved by now (speaking about sync-no-surf which is a software problem). I worked developing firmware and I know I would not touch code developed by somebody else, is easier to start from scratch.
I read in another thread somebody for the Telecom company (that second installer guy, probably) says that in the last week he had a lot of installs and 75% of customers had the SmartRG modem.

I understand that working on someone else's code is a pain and not preferable at all. However when you're an engineer this is something you have to be accustomed to. I'm working on products here at my company where the original developers have all left. I hate it but I still continue to support it and fix major issues. It takes longer to fix it but it has to be done. In their case, from what I've seen throughout the forums, it's been over a year and a half. Seems to me they're hiring the wrong people.

rocca
Start.ca
Premium Member
join:2008-11-16
London, ON

rocca

Premium Member

It could be on that profile because it's a Sagemcom. I just looked at the portal and we don't have the ability to change the sync rate on your account for some reason. I do think the download is pretty marginal. You could certainly try renting a SmartRG for a month and see if that helps, if so and we can update the profile then great. As for the Kijiji'd Sagemcom - sorry can't help you there.
sgobiraj
join:2013-03-26
Ajax, ON

sgobiraj

Member

said by rocca:

It could be on that profile because it's a Sagemcom. I just looked at the portal and we don't have the ability to change the sync rate on your account for some reason. I do think the download is pretty marginal. You could certainly try renting a SmartRG for a month and see if that helps, if so and we can update the profile then great. As for the Kijiji'd Sagemcom - sorry can't help you there.

Hey Rocca, I wasn't expecting anything to be done on the Kijiji'd modem. The modem itself is behaving just like any Sagemcom modem. In fact my sync-no-surf issue isn't even bad. I've got it like once or twice since getting service. How is getting a SmartRG modem going to allow you to push my profile? Also how much do you charge to rent the modem?

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt

Premium Member

I dug up my stats I had on the Sagemcom when I was on 25/7 (8128k) upstream. My Upstream RCO was 61%, so not far off your 66%. I've been running on 25/10 and 50/10 for a while now on several modems, Cellpipe, Sagemcom and the SmartRG with no issues at all on the upstream.

You could always put the Sagemcom on Kijiji, or keep it as a backup modem...

Switching to the SmartRG I noticed better upstream stats vs the Sagemcom. But that's on my line, it may not be the same on others.

But talking on IRC another user also mentioned better SNR on the upstream on his SmartRG vs the Sagemcom.

rocca
Start.ca
Premium Member
join:2008-11-16
London, ON

rocca to sgobiraj

Premium Member

to sgobiraj
I think your sync-no-surf isn't bad though because you're on an interleaved profile. Once you switch modems we can get you on non-interleaved and ask to have the profile updated (or the ability to change directly again - not sure why that's missing from your account, possibly because of an override to the 'Sagemncom profile' but that's a guess). Cost for rental is $5/mo, no cost to ship to you, you're responsible for shipping it back if you don't decide to keep it.

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt

Premium Member

Speaking of Sync-No-Surf, I tested the Sagemcom on a 3008/800 fastpath line at work, and it still experienced milder symptoms even at such low speeds when maxed out with a few torrents. Thats quite pathetic.
sgobiraj
join:2013-03-26
Ajax, ON

sgobiraj

Member

said by HiVolt:

Speaking of Sync-No-Surf, I tested the Sagemcom on a 3008/800 fastpath line at work, and it still experienced milder symptoms even at such low speeds when maxed out with a few torrents. Thats quite pathetic.

As an engineer I am still baffled by their incapability to fix a fundamental software problem. Especially when this is affecting their own retail customers as well.

Also from your earlier post do you think they'll ever update our Sagemcom modems with a new firmware? Or are they just going to update their retail customers? Not that it matters since their retail firmware hasn't addressed the sync-no-surf or pppoe pass-through issues. If anything the wholesale firmware would be worse.
sgobiraj

sgobiraj to rocca

Member

to rocca
said by rocca:

I think your sync-no-surf isn't bad though because you're on an interleaved profile. Once you switch modems we can get you on non-interleaved and ask to have the profile updated (or the ability to change directly again - not sure why that's missing from your account, possibly because of an override to the 'Sagemncom profile' but that's a guess). Cost for rental is $5/mo, no cost to ship to you, you're responsible for shipping it back if you don't decide to keep it.

I'm ok with being on the interleaved profile since I'm not a gamer looking for fast ping times. However, I would like the full upstream since I do VPN to work and transfer files back and forth often. So there is absolutely no way to have my upstream increased without purchasing the SmartRG? I'm just trying to put off the purchase of the new modem till early next year.

Gixxer
join:2008-08-27
St Catharines, ON

Gixxer to sgobiraj

Member

to sgobiraj
The Sagemcom is a complete piece of shit, switching to the RG is a day and night difference. There's less hang, the browser feels smoother, everything just feels like there's less delay everywhere.

rocca
Start.ca
Premium Member
join:2008-11-16
London, ON

rocca to sgobiraj

Premium Member

to sgobiraj
Other than renting, no not really. If we move you to fastpath 50/10, we'll be moving you back within a few days since you'll be locking up. And that's if Bell accepts the profile change at all. I know that's not the answer you want and I wish the Sagemcom's didn't suck too - but alas, they do. I'd recommend holding out for a stable 50/8 instead of an unstable 50/10 until you can justify a good modem.
sgobiraj
join:2013-03-26
Ajax, ON

sgobiraj

Member

said by rocca:

Other than renting, no not really. If we move you to fastpath 50/10, we'll be moving you back within a few days since you'll be locking up. And that's if Bell accepts the profile change at all. I know that's not the answer you want and I wish the Sagemcom's didn't suck too - but alas, they do. I'd recommend holding out for a stable 50/8 instead of an unstable 50/10 until you can justify a good modem.

Ok thanks rocca! I'll assess how quickly I want this done and justify whether to switch modems immediately
adit7
join:2013-04-02
Oakville, ON

1 edit

adit7

Member

Take rocca's offer and rent a SmartRG for a month or two and see if it works better. Speaking about SmartRG Bell just bought a bunch of SmartRG and preparing to "test" them (they know of course that it works, it passed Bell's own certification) which tells you something about the future of Sagemcom modems.From what I read, SmartRG manufacturer paid itself for certification and is very aggressive entering Canadian market with offers for Cable modems also. Switching to non interleave mode should also improve VOIp not only gaming.
sgobiraj
join:2013-03-26
Ajax, ON

sgobiraj

Member

said by adit7:

Take rocca's offer and rent a SmartRG for a month or two and see if it works better. Speaking about SmartRG Bell just bought a bunch of SmartRG and preparing to "test" them (they know of course that it works, it passed Bell's own certification) which tells you something about the future of Sagemcom modems.From what I read, SmartRG manufacturer paid itself for certification and is very aggressive entering Canadian market with offers for Cable modems also. Switching to non interleave mode should also improve VOIp not only gaming.

Definitely thinking about it. I have a Thomson DCM 475 with 02.16 firmware that will be compatible with the cable. I could just switch to Start cable 45/4 with a cost of 50$ activation instead of buying the new modem for VDSL2. VDSL2 is the better product right in terms of consistent speeds? Anyone here have the cable to comment on speeds. Also does the aggregated POI improve congestion?

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt to sgobiraj

Premium Member

to sgobiraj
said by sgobiraj:

As an engineer I am still baffled by their incapability to fix a fundamental software problem. Especially when this is affecting their own retail customers as well.

Also from your earlier post do you think they'll ever update our Sagemcom modems with a new firmware? Or are they just going to update their retail customers? Not that it matters since their retail firmware hasn't addressed the sync-no-surf or pppoe pass-through issues. If anything the wholesale firmware would be worse.

Whats even more funny, is that the bug didn't exist when Bell first deployed the Sagemcom. When I got mine, i used it successfully as a passthru device on 25/7 and 25/10, it was one of the pushed firmware updates that introduced the issue.

They will probably release the same firmware to wholesale registered modems, as they have in the past.
sgobiraj
join:2013-03-26
Ajax, ON

sgobiraj

Member

said by HiVolt:

said by sgobiraj:

As an engineer I am still baffled by their incapability to fix a fundamental software problem. Especially when this is affecting their own retail customers as well.

Also from your earlier post do you think they'll ever update our Sagemcom modems with a new firmware? Or are they just going to update their retail customers? Not that it matters since their retail firmware hasn't addressed the sync-no-surf or pppoe pass-through issues. If anything the wholesale firmware would be worse.

Whats even more funny, is that the bug didn't exist when Bell first deployed the Sagemcom. When I got mine, i used it successfully as a passthru device on 25/7 and 25/10, it was one of the pushed firmware updates that introduced the issue.

They will probably release the same firmware to wholesale registered modems, as they have in the past.

Hmm that's interesting. I didn't know that. So for the past year and half they just can't figure out what part of code they touched that broke it? I wouldn't be surprised if they have poor software development practices and not have source control. Either that or they're just outsourcing this stuff to India.

So wait no one has this older firmware dump so that we can just flash the modems with this firmware?

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt

Premium Member

Nobody has any firmware for them, since they are all updated remotely, and have no feature to update manually.

And the "working" firmware was used in the spring of 2012 as far as I remember... The issue first started occuring in the summer of 2012 as far as I remember.
sgobiraj
join:2013-03-26
Ajax, ON

sgobiraj to adit7

Member

to adit7
said by adit7:

Take rocca's offer and rent a SmartRG for a month or two and see if it works better. Speaking about SmartRG Bell just bought a bunch of SmartRG and preparing to "test" them (they know of course that it works, it passed Bell's own certification) which tells you something about the future of Sagemcom modems.From what I read, SmartRG manufacturer paid itself for certification and is very aggressive entering Canadian market with offers for Cable modems also. Switching to non interleave mode should also improve VOIp not only gaming.

I'm surprised that Bell is also going this route considering they need the Sagemcom for FibeTV. Unless I'm mistaken and the SmartRG has IPTV support built-in?
sgobiraj

sgobiraj to HiVolt

Member

to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

Nobody has any firmware for them, since they are all updated remotely, and have no feature to update manually.

And the "working" firmware was used in the spring of 2012 as far as I remember... The issue first started occuring in the summer of 2012 as far as I remember.

I thought there was a way to TFTP the firmware manually?

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt

Premium Member

right, i forgot. But nobody has that old firmware, since the sagemcom firmware downgrading was only discovered by some users not that long ago, certainly not when that working firmware was in use.

jmck
formerly 'shaded'
join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON

jmck to sgobiraj

Member

to sgobiraj
put the Sagemcom back up on kijiji and hope someone else buys it
sgobiraj
join:2013-03-26
Ajax, ON

sgobiraj to HiVolt

Member

to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

right, i forgot. But nobody has that old firmware, since the sagemcom firmware downgrading was only discovered by some users not that long ago, certainly not when that working firmware was in use.

That sucks!
sgobiraj

sgobiraj to jmck

Member

to jmck
said by jmck:

put the Sagemcom back up on kijiji and hope someone else buys it

Good call! I should try that.