Verizon FiOS TV → [DVR] Motorla 7232 DVR captions in HD absolutely suck.

Just switched back to FiOS, and got the 7232 DVR. Why are the closed captions in HD so awful looking. It appears as though the STB is rendering them in 480i resolution. Very blurry and not sharp. Is there anything that can be done to improve them? I switched from a TiVO and the captions were very crisp and sharp on that.

Press Menu then go to Settings, Accessibility and Closed Captions.

The Verizon Motorola stb's have absolutely ABYSMAL implementation of closed captions because Verizon has not implemented the software/firmware to decode digital closed caption options CC3-CC6 in HD format on their Motorola stb's--CC2 is generally reserved for Spanish language closed captions but no all programming has them. I don't think you will find that any of the closed caption setting options (font, font size, font color, background color, etc.) will fix the problem.

Additionally on the Verizon Motorola stb's only CC1 displays captions for programing that is closed captioned. The Verizon Motorola stb's do not display closed captions for captioned programming when options CC3 through CC6 are chosen (CC2 = Spanish).

I did quite a bit of testing back in June when I was trying to decide if I would add FiOS TV to my FiOS broadband and phone to make a triple play--my sister lives next door to me and has FiOS TV with a Motorola stb so I used her system for testing. I also consulted with the Verizon Direct forum here and was told that ALL Verizon stb's displayed closed captions in the same way.

I had just about decided to not add FiOSTV when I had an idea. I decided to see what would happen if I switched from HDMI Input to TV Input--you can do this if you coax cable from the TV's RF port to the stb's RF port. I did this on my sister's system and while the tv image is a bit soft it's not bad and I could then use the TV's closed caption options--all of them not just CC1--rather than the Verizon Motorola stb's option CC1 (again, on Verizon's Motorola stb's only CC1 displays captions). I decided to get FiOS TV.

When the installer came to my home, he brought a Verizon Cisco stb and after getting it provisioned--took forever for some reason--I turned on the closed captions and just for yucks, decided to see if CC3 would display closed captions and it did. I then tried CC4, CC5 and CC6 and they displayed the captions too! I think the installer must have thought I was crazy because I was jumping around saying "It works! It works!"...'-}}

Soooo...for Verizon Motorola stb's only CC1 displays closed captions. For Verizon Cisco stb's CC1, CC3-CC6 all display closed captions (CC2=Spanish).

For both Verizon Motorola and Cisco stb's there is something very hinky about how closed caption option CC1 is coded because the closed caption settings (font, font color, font size, background color, etc.) do not alter how the CC1 text is displayed in the same way that those same closed caption settings alter the display of the caption text for options CC3-CC6. I personally find the CC1 display of caption text on the Motorola stb's to be virtually illegible. CC1 on the Cisco stb is slightly (only slightly) more legible but I find option CC3 to be much better.

Back in June, I did also research getting a TiVo because I'd found out (via the tivocommunity.com forum) that the TiVo closed caption display is significantly better than Verizon's Motorola stb's which I thought I would be getting but in the end, I decided against getting a TiVo.



There is a hidden menu on the Motorola stb's that has more closed caption setting options but I didn't find that changing those settings helped make option CC1 display text more legible but you may want to play with those settings. I can't remember how you access the hidden menu--been too long since I've played with it on my sister's system--but I'm sure someone here will be able to tell you how to do it. It's tricky to get the timing right when trying to access it but once you get the hang of it (however it is done...'-}}), it's pretty straightforward.

Yeah... I tried that...none of the settings help. The captions are blurred and washed out...and HUGE! even when selecting the "small" font size. They remind me of the fonts used on my old Commodore VIC-20 computer

>>yankeefan: Yeah... I tried that...none of the settings help.

Told ya...'-}}

The closed caption settings (font, font size, font color, background color, etc.) just don't work correctly when used with CC1.



Ok...went rooting around in my notes and I've found the instructions for accessing the Verizon Motorola hidden menu so you can play with the settings there to see it might help--probably won't but you might get lucky:

1. With the TV ON, turn the stb OFF

2. On the remote press the "OK" button and then the "Menu" button--you may also be able to do this using the buttons on the front of the stb. NOTE: it's tricky to get the timing right when pressing these keys so if the hidden menu does not display, turn the stb on and then off again and try hitting "OK" and "Menu" again.

3. Once the hidden menu displays, you should see an option for closed captions--if I'm remembering correctly (the Cisco does not have a hidden menu so I can't check this for you), there is a submenu for all the closed caption option settings from the main hidden menu closed caption option.



You might see if Verizon will swap your Motorla stb for a Cisco stb. I've been told that even when the Cisco stbs are available in a particular sales region (they aren't available everywhere) that Verizon will not swap a Motorola stb for a Cisco stb but, it might be worth asking--maybe start with the Verizon Direct forum here. Let me know if you want the url for my Verizon Direct thread about closed captioning with Motorola stbs--you won't be able to read it but the Verizon Direct staff can and it may provide support for the swap.




From your first post, it appears that you have both a Verizon stb and a TiVo. Can you tell me how they are hooked up--I had thought having both a Verizon stb and a TiVo might be a viable approach for me but I couldn't find any info on how the two are cabled. Is the TiVo box cabled to the Verizon stb? If so, how, using what sort of cabling to which ports on the devices?

I tried that already...they still look like crap...I had a Tivo...but it died...so that's why I went with the Verizon DVR. The Tivo's CC"s were much better.

>>yankeefan: I tried that already...they still look like crap...

Ok...I have no idea if this will work but from some rather old notes, you might try playing in the hidden menu with the YPbPr settings.

Additionally, try in either the hidden menu closed caption settings or the stb closed caption settings changing all the settings to "auto", see if that helps at all and then play with each of the settings options in turn to see what happens.



>>I had a Tivo...but it died...so that's why I went with the Verizon DVR. The Tivo's CC"s were much better.

Ahhh...yeah...I've read that the TiVo's cc's are better.

See if you can get a Cisco stb. The cc's are infinitely better

They are not that bad (480i) but they are rolling out an improvement in 1.9.5. Includes more options to improve CC appearance.

No hidden menus required for Motorola 7232.
Main menu - settings - system - accessibility - closed captions.

I was able to customize my CC1 settings easily. They are clear and easily read.

Bill

>>billhere: No hidden menus required for Motorola 7232.
Main menu - settings - system - accessibility - closed captions.

It's been a while so I'm might be wrong but, the Motorola hidden menu has always had a number of different closed caption setting options that were not available via the stb/remote (menu > settings > system > accessiblity > closed captions). From the little bit I've read about the 1.9.5 Guide software, I'm not sure if new closed caption settings options were indeed added. If someone who has 1.9.5 would list the stb/remote closed caption settings options, that would be helpful.

It is my understanding that 1.9.5 has changed the coding for the remote's * (cc) key so that it now just turns closed captioning Off or On rather than allowing the user to choose CC1, CC2, CC3, CC4, CC5 and CC6 in addition to the "Off" option. If this is indeed the case, it pisses me off because I use the *(cc) key regularly to change the closed caption option easily and quickly--I generally use CC3 but sometimes CC4. I have a Verizon Cisco stb so all the closed caption options (CC1-CC6) display closed captions for captioned programming unlike the Verizon Motorola stbs with which only CC1 displays closed captions for captioned programming.

What channels are you watching that have more than 1 set of captions? Unless you're counting 608 and 708 captions separately, I've never seen anything with more than 2 sets, and even that is pretty rare. Kind of hard to tell the difference between 608 and 708 as well, because most now channels normalize their captions so both are the same. Unless the Cisco boxes are just duplicating the same captions to another listing with different display settings, which would be dumb, but also a very Cisco thing to do.

>>dfwguy: What channels are you watching that have more than 1 set of captions?

I'm not really sure what you are asking. I choose ONE closed caption option (generally CC3) at a time. Watching any channel and any program that is closed captioned.

With the Verizon Cisco stb, I can choose any of the digital closed caption options CC1, CC3-CC6 (CC2 is generally reserved for Spanish language closed captions--not all captioned programs have them) and, for captioned programs, the closed captions will display--with Verizon Motorola stb's, only CC1 displays captions.

I find the caption text display for digital closed caption option CC1 to be difficult to read. The digital closed caption settings options (font, font size, font color, background color, etc.) do not fix the text display issues with option CC1 and the digital closed caption settings options do not work in the same way as they do for digital closed caption options CC2-CC6. I believe that CC1 is coded differently than any of the other digital closed caption options (CC2-CC6). I generally choose digital closed caption option CC3 because with my customized settings, I find the caption text display legible. For some reason, some PBS programs display closed captions better with CC4--not sure why--and when I need to I choose CC4.



>> Unless you're counting 608 and 708 captions separately,

I don't know what "608" and "708" are. Explain please?



>>Unless the Cisco boxes are just duplicating the same captions to another listing with different display settings, which would be dumb, but also a very Cisco thing to do.

I believe that the intent of having multiple digitial closed caption options (CC1-CC6) was that each closed caption option could have a different set of closed caption settings (font, font size, font color, etc.)--this is unfortunately, not possible with the Verizon implemenation but it is possible with the way Comcast has implemented digital closed caption options and settings on Comcast's stb's. This, theorectically would allow multiple users within one household who needed closed captions to make programming accessible to set their own "personal" group of closed caption settings for a particular closed caption option so that the captions were legible for that particular viewer. This would allow each viewer to quickly select the appropriate closed caption option that works best for that person. Obviously, in a multi-user household, only one customized closed caption option could be used at one time but, it allows flexibility and flexibility was one of the supposedly wonderful things about digitial closed captions. The practical reality is that digitial closed captions pretty much suck because of poor implementation.

Soooo...it's not dumb at all on Cisco's part. It's dumb of Verizon not to have properly implemented digital closed captions particularly with respect to their Motorola stb's.

No. The purpose of it was so that each could be a different language.

FWIW, here's what I've set the CC1 preferences to (on a 7232 and 7100):

Size: Large
Style: Mono No Serif
Color: Yellow
Opacity: Solid
Background: Auto
Bkgd Opacity: Transparent
Settings: User

These choices produce a decent CC display on my sets.

>>tnsprin: No. The purpose of it was so that each could be a different language.

Source for that opinion please?

CC2 is conventionally designated for Spanish language closed captions but it it my understanding that CC2 is the only option designated for a language other than English--at least in the US.

OK, some background here. EIA/CEA-608 captions are the old style captions that were carried on line 21 in the VBI data on analog broadcasts. They supported up to 4 sets of CC and 4 sets of teletext. EIA/CEA-708 captions are a new standard that was defined to be used in ATSC broadcasts. Digital broadcasts normally have both 608 and 708 captions embedded as extra data attached to each video frame. The reason both are included is that the 608 captions can be pulled out and embedded right back into the VBI data on an NTSC output, enabling a TV's caption decoder to be used instead of the box's, and also enabling something like an old Tivo to have captions that can be turned on and off in recordings made from a box.

The biggest benefit to 708 is that it can potentially support a lot more languages. Not really useful in the US since this country doesn't care about anyone who doesn't speak English or Spanish, but for say the CBC, they might theoretically want to caption a program in English, French, Mandarin, Cantonese, Punjabi, and Inuit, and they would be able to do that. There could also be the option for different sets in the same language, one set that includes non-dialogue sounds (phones ringing, traffic, doors opening and closing, etc.) for people who are hard of hearing or just watching with the sound muted, and one set that just has the dialogue for people who can hear but may not be able to fully understand the dialogue. The intent of the different CC choices was to be able to switch between all of these potential different choices, which is what Motorola does. Repeating the same set of captions for every different option is completely wrong. It's certainly a useful feature to be able to store multiple sets of overrides, it just should be implemented in a different way. And it would definitely be nice if Motorola boxes didn't do such a lousy job of rendering. I just tried Rattler's settings and they were better, but still vastly inferior to what I get from Windows Media Center.

Source the 708 standard. And other languages are available, mostly for foreign language channels including locals in some areas.

>>dfwguy: OK, some background here. EIA/CEA-608 captions are the old style captions that were carried on line 21 in the VBI data on analog broadcasts. They supported up to 4 sets of CC and 4 sets of teletext.

Right...and...basically gone now...



>>EIA/CEA-708 captions are a new standard that was defined to be used in ATSC broadcasts. Digital broadcasts normally have both 608 and 708 captions embedded as extra data attached to each video frame. The reason both are included is that the 608 captions can be pulled out and embedded right back into the VBI data on an NTSC output, enabling a TV's caption decoder to be used instead of the box's, and also enabling something like an old Tivo to have captions that can be turned on and off in recordings made from a box.

I spent hours yesterday playing with the various closed caption options in 1.9.5, basically giving myself a headache and was not able to get legible and consistent caption style across all channels--something I had via my Cisco BEFORE this crap 1.9.5 "upgrade" was installed.

Very late in the evening I remembered that I had coax-cabled the TV's RF port to the stb's RF port and could switch Input from Component Input (or HDMI if that's what you're using, works either way) to TV Input. This will allow me to use the TV's closed caption options (rather than the now 1.9.5 fucked stb's closed caption options) with both legible captions and consistent caption style across all channels. The TV Input image is a bit softer than Component/HDMI Input but it's livable for the immediate future while I look at other providers for all my Verizon services.

I will be emailing the (totally useless and clueless) Verizon closed caption department to register my complaint about 1.9.5 and the fact that it broke what was a nicely working closed caption system on the Cisco stbs but I don't expect anything in the least bit useful from this department because it's just a show to satisfy the FCC rules and is filled with people who are not in the least bit knowledgeable about closed captioning--at least given my last go-round with them.



>>There could also be the option for different sets in the same language, one set that includes non-dialogue sounds (phones ringing, traffic, doors opening and closing, etc.) for people who are hard of hearing

Like me! '-}}



>>The intent of the different CC choices was to be able to switch between all of these potential different choices, which is what Motorola does. Repeating the same set of captions for every different option is completely wrong.

But the Motorola does not allow the viewer to use anything other than CC1 and...that wouldn't be a bad thing except for the fact that there is something hinky about how CC1 is coded/decoded/encoded (whatever) in that the closed caption style options (font, font size, font color, background color, etc.) do not work in the same way that those caption style options work on CC2-CC3 and for me, personally, I find the caption text display for CC1 to be illegible which is why I used CC3 on the Cisco (which displays captions for all the digital closed caption options CC1-CC6) before the fiasco of the 1.9.5 "upgrade".



>>And it would definitely be nice if Motorola boxes didn't do such a lousy job of rendering. I just tried Rattler's settings and they were better, but still vastly inferior to what I get from Windows Media Center.

And...before 1.9.5, the Cisco stb closed caption display. With the Cisco stb's, the caption style options still didn't work on CC1 (properly) as they do with CC2-CC6 but the Cisco CC1 caption text display wasn't quite as bad as it is on the Motorola stb's although I still found it difficult to read.

Thank you for the more detailed info on caption coding...