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billydunwood
join:2008-04-23
united state

billydunwood

Member

[Rant] Ambulance Rides

Had to call the ambulance for my father yesterday. They did a great job and luckily he will be fine after being in the hospital for a couple days. The rant is about the cost. We as taxpayers pay for the Fire Department, yet when we have to use them, we still get a bill for $1400 for the ambulance ride, despite our tax money paying for it. That's double dipping and should be illegal. It's ridiculous that I/insurance companies have to pay extra for a service we already pay for because the Government and elected leaders can't spend the money properly.

motoracer
join:2003-09-15
united state

1 recommendation

motoracer

Member

I believe a lot of ambulances are private companies. I absolutely agree that ambulance fees are absolutely ridiculous. Back in '96, I broke my arm and needed an ambulance...$600 for a 3 mile drive.
billydunwood
join:2008-04-23
united state

billydunwood

Member

said by motoracer:

I believe a lot of ambulances are private companies. I absolutely agree that ambulance fees are absolutely ridiculous. Back in '96, I broke my arm and needed an ambulance...$600 for a 3 mile drive.

There are a lot of ambulance that are private companies that either contract with fire departments, or are for inter-facility and dialysis transports. 2 cases we had to call, 1 with LA City Fire and the other with our local Fire, they are both operated by the Fire Department. Firefighters are paramedics. But yes, now its around $1000-$1500 in LA for an ambulance ride.
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

rody_44 to billydunwood

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to billydunwood
Our fire departments here make yearly subsrciptions available. You pay like 50 a year and if you use it you dont have to pay. If you didnt pay the 50 you pay. I dont really consider yours double dipping anyway. Clearly if you had to pay 1400 your system doesnt allow them enough to start with. Its not like the 1400 goes from your hand to disappearing.

fruhead
join:2002-01-29
Mosquito,NJ

1 recommendation

fruhead to billydunwood

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to billydunwood
The insurance liability for ambulance/EMT services is incredibly high. When the fire department charges you to come put out your house-fire, then complain. For the most part, ambulance services are either contracted or volunteer (as are many in NJ). It's not economically feasable for most municipalities to have an ambulance unit staffed and ready around the clock.

Don't blame the government - blame the insurance companies.

Msradell
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY

Msradell to billydunwood

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to billydunwood
This topic is a major point of discussion in many areas of the country. In different areas there are many different ways to cover the cost of EMS services. Paying an additional fee like you did when you use the service is by far the most common. Your taxes cover the basic cost of the equipment and in most cases manpower. The bill you receive is to cover the actual trip your father made and includes the services provided during the trip, equipment used and other costs. It's normally reimbursed by most insurance companies and what they don't pay is normally written off by the providers. There are very few areas where you are not charged when you use the ambulance service.

Krisnatharok
PC Builder, Gamer
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join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit

Krisnatharok to billydunwood

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to billydunwood
My county's EMS system is a mixture of volunteer and professional, and AFAIK is still a completely free service to citizens that their tax dollars pay for (beyond what is not covered by volunteer work or DHS grants to local first responders).
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

said by Krisnatharok:

My county's EMS system is a mixture of volunteer and professional, and AFAIK is still a completely free service to citizens that their tax dollars pay for (beyond what is not covered by volunteer work or DHS grants to local first responders).

You may want to double-check that.

I've not heard of an EMS system that won't bill for services, especially because insurance reimbursement is often available.

Why would they turn away extra funding?

This is EMS/paramedic services I'm especially talking about, not so much volunteer First Aid squads in many areas....

Cthen
Premium Member
join:2004-08-01
Detroit, MI

Cthen to billydunwood

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to billydunwood
Don't forget that you are also paying for the other people who could not pay their bill when they had to take a ride. It's not just that but it is rolled in there with the other things that people in this thread has mentioned.

It is one of the biggest reasons though why medical costs get so high all the way around. Not just with amber lamps services. They have to recoup those losses somehow and this is about the only way they can do that.

signmeuptoo94
Bless you Howie
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle

signmeuptoo94 to billydunwood

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to billydunwood
I have a friend that is an EMT and is quickly becoming a paramedic. He's a hell of a guy. They don't pay those guys nearly what they are worth. Somebody's making all the money, but not the actual responders.

Cthen
Premium Member
join:2004-08-01
Detroit, MI

Cthen

Premium Member

Back in '94 when I was doing my training, the best hope was to work for a private service for around $9 an hour. EMT's got around $7 an hour. All typically with mandatory 12 hour shifts. Only a small percentage would move on to a firehouse after being on a very long waiting list to make around $13 an hour.

Have to give some credit to your friend, they still don't pay much better today than they did then. Needless to say, I work in a different field these days.
AsherN
Premium Member
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON

AsherN to billydunwood

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to billydunwood
EMS service around here is around $50.

Krisnatharok
PC Builder, Gamer
Premium Member
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit

Krisnatharok to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:

said by Krisnatharok:

My county's EMS system is a mixture of volunteer and professional, and AFAIK is still a completely free service to citizens that their tax dollars pay for (beyond what is not covered by volunteer work or DHS grants to local first responders).

You may want to double-check that.

I've not heard of an EMS system that won't bill for services, especially because insurance reimbursement is often available.

Why would they turn away extra funding?

This is EMS/paramedic services I'm especially talking about, not so much volunteer First Aid squads in many areas....

You could very well be right. I volunteered for about three years, starting as a lowly Aid and ending as an Ambulance driver / EMT-First Responder. I never heard of anyone being billed, especially considering the number of "frequent flyers" we had. That said, I was strictly a BLS (Basic Life Support) unit. We'd have ALS chasers that would come on board depending on the call, but I never heard of someone being billed for that.
Krisnatharok

Krisnatharok to signmeuptoo94

Premium Member

to signmeuptoo94
said by signmeuptoo94:

I have a friend that is an EMT and is quickly becoming a paramedic. He's a hell of a guy. They don't pay those guys nearly what they are worth. Somebody's making all the money, but not the actual responders.

Paramedic *can be* a two-year degree if you go full-time, but my county's system (on the volunteer side) requires a probationary period after each certification (and it gets longer the higher up you go). I think EMT-B's (Basic) require X months and Y # of calls (6 months, can't remember how many calls) before they can be "released" to practice without a senior EMT supervising them.

Our volunteer system would be distrustful of someone coming in with an EMT-P "degree" with no real-world application, and probably make them chain the probationary periods together and not let them practice higher than whatever period they are on until they get released. It probably would be a couple more years before they are fully released as Paramedics.

But that's the volunteer side. If you have the cert, they'd probably hire you direct somewhere in a professional capacity.

signmeuptoo94
Bless you Howie
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle

signmeuptoo94

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That's why he's done the whole volunteer thing. He's a super guy, a really big strong person with a cool disposition, used to tell me rought details of some of the calls, some scary stuff, I'll tell ya! I couldn't do that work, my anxiety problem is way too acute.

This guy is the kind of guy you wouldn't ever dare mess with, good to have friends like him, too. Has a heart of gold but watch out if your a baddie.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

CylonRed to billydunwood

MVM

to billydunwood
The bill to our insurance company for my recent ride was $4400. Can you imagine what the cost would have been a couple years ago when I rode to one hospital and then got transferred to another hospital and got 2 ambulance rides?

Eyeballs
Premium Member
join:2000-04-25
Worcester, MA

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In my area, EMS is self sustaining, therefore no tax dollars are being used even though it is a government agency. Patients get a bill, they pay the bill, and EMS pays their bills with that money, just like any other business.

They could offer free service, but then they would have to draw funds out of the town's funds, causing less funds to be placed in other department budgets, or cause the raising of taxes.

So in general, having peoples health insurance pay the brunt of the bill is typically the best way to go for all parties.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

1 recommendation

scross to Cthen

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to Cthen
said by Cthen:

Don't forget that you are also paying for the other people who could not pay their bill when they had to take a ride. It's not just that but it is rolled in there with the other things that people in this thread has mentioned.

It is one of the biggest reasons though why medical costs get so high all the way around. Not just with amber lamps services. They have to recoup those losses somehow and this is about the only way they can do that.

Dunno about ambulance services (although I would expect the same to apply here), but several articles that have come out lately concerning hospitals have shown that their billings are grossly inflated from the get-go, and that their actual losses from folks who never pay are a fraction of what we've been led to believe - mere pennies on the dollar, maybe 2% of revenue, if even that. Legal costs (from lawsuits and such) and insurance for the medical industry overall are more like 5% of revenue, while administrative costs (salaries for the top dogs, office overhead, etc) are generally much higher than you'd expect. For example, some doctors say that they have been able to cut their costs dramatically by going cash-only and letting the patients deal with insurance issues directly.

BTW, it is an old trick in the business world to use legal/insurance/regulatory/shortage/shrinkage/whatever costs as justification for dramatic and permanent price increases, when the actual costs are much lower and/or only temporary. And such price increases are often pre-emptive (before the actual cost is incurred) and "sticky" (they tend to stay around for a relatively long time), while price decreases often only come about slowly due to competitive pressures. This is true all up and down the supply chain, BTW, not just at the tail-end of it.
40757180 (banned)
join:2009-11-01

40757180 (banned) to billydunwood

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Are you sure that taxes pay for ambulance and not just for fire department respond?

Midniteoyl
join:2013-11-22
Knox, IN

Midniteoyl to scross

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to scross
Agreed...

When I got in a accident and had back surgery, the bills totaled over $220,000 by the time it was all said and done. When we went to court, the actual costs were around $40,000 and my insurance accepted $28,000.

Ya, costs are inflated on purpose, and having insurance is actually the best way to protect yourself. They know the real costs and what to pay. Ever look at your hospital bills vs what they actually get paid by insurance due to 'reasonable and accepted costs'? Example: In my area is normal to bill over $1200 for an MRI. Insurance will usually only pay a fraction of that - around $300. And yet, the hospitals are still making money. God forbid if you have insurance that isnt 'on contract' with the hospital and they try to send you a bill for the remainder...
nonymous (banned)
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

nonymous (banned) to signmeuptoo94

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said by signmeuptoo94:

I have a friend that is an EMT and is quickly becoming a paramedic. He's a hell of a guy. They don't pay those guys nearly what they are worth. Somebody's making all the money, but not the actual responders.

Then they need to become a fireman/ paramedic in a larger city. They do get paid more and decent benefits.

Eyeballs
Premium Member
join:2000-04-25
Worcester, MA

Eyeballs

Premium Member

Unless it's Detroit. Those poor guys get annual pay cuts. Talk about dedication.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

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to nonymous
Firefighters in NYC do alright, but EMT's do not.

La Luna
Fly With The Angels My Beloved Son Chris
Premium Member
join:2001-07-12
New Port Richey, FL

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This is nothing new. Years ago, probably 15 or so, my late husband had to go to ER by ambulance while we were on vacation in Chincoteague VA. All volunteer ambulance. We got a bill for $125, which was covered by our ins, if I recall correctly. Either way, money well spent.
nonymous (banned)
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

nonymous (banned) to PX Eliezer1

Member

to PX Eliezer1
The figherfighter/ paramedics do fine here in larger cities. The emt/ ambulance driver nope. Thing is usually if the person is that bad the figherfighter/ paramedic stays with them in the ambulance and just lets them do the driving.
Or around here with helicopters become fully certified for all paramedic lifeflight and do the chopper/ plane thing. Those have crashed though in bad weather so some risk there.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

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scross

Member

We lost a medical chopper a couple of months ago ourselves. The pilot was the husband of a former coworker of mine; the two nurses worked for the same hospital system that my wife works for. The official cause of the crash is unknown yet, but rumor has it that there was a fire or explosion of some type on board. Apparently weather was not a factor here.
scross

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scross to Midniteoyl

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to Midniteoyl
said by Midniteoyl:

Ever look at your hospital bills vs what they actually get paid by insurance due to 'reasonable and accepted costs'?

Yep, every time we've ever gotten a bill. The one in particular that sticks in my mind was from maybe 15 or 20 years ago, where my wife had minor outpatient surgery. Some of the line item amounts on that bill were outrageous in my opinion, and some were clearly outright bogus, too. The final total was something like $15,000 (which sounds cheap compared to bills today), for maybe an hour's worth of work and maybe three hours of her just sitting around, and insurance immediately slashed that to around $1,500 - so a 90% reduction right off the bat. After my wife (who's a nurse) reviewed the bogus line items and complained about them to both the hospital and the insurance company, some of those magically disappeared, too.

This kind of crap is not at all unusual. Over the years we've both had to get ugly with various medical offices about such things. We've been double-billed, billed for procedures that never happened, billed for tests that didn't apply (my wife was once billed for a prostate exam, for example), billed for contract items which had already been paid for so no balance was due, and so on.

One medical lab in town decided they didn't like their insurance contract and wanted more money for things that had already been paid for, so they sent out bogus collection letters to all their customers demanding more money - or else! They put themselves out of business by doing that. Another lab billed my wife for tests that they screwed up and had to redo; she got ugly with them and told them we wouldn't pay for their screw-ups.

I got ugly with a local office that had over-billed us and refused to give us a refund. In trying to deal with their billing manager (who avoided me when they could and lied to me when they couldn't), I smelled hints of embezzlement and malfeasance, and wrote a letter to the local state regulator stating as much. Apparently I wasn't the only one who had complained, either, because shortly after that they launched an investigation which ended up with that billing manager getting fired and ultimately going to jail, and that medical group (which is otherwise highly regarded) has been flirting with bankruptcy ever since.

So fun stuff indeed!

Edit: Forgot to add that, IIRC, the hospital that my wife works for lets their employees (and maybe even family members) have CAT scans and MRIs for free under their insurance plan - which gives you an idea as to how much those things actually cost them.

dib22
join:2002-01-27
Kansas City, MO

dib22 to billydunwood

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to billydunwood
In my part of the country a lot of the ambulance providers offer a "yearly membership" plan that is usually less that $50/yr... it will then give you free emergency ambulance service (non emergency is not included in the plan)... might be something to look into for the future.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross

Member

$50/yr for a service which will probably be used extensively (and perhaps repeatedly, depending on the patient) during the course of that year strongly implies that billing hundreds of dollars or more for one individual ambulance ride is a total rip-off, don't you think? It would seem the issue here isn't so much "How much does it cost us to provide this service?" as it is "How much do we think we can get for providing this service?"
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

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PX Eliezer1

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No, because the majority of people will pay the fee but not need to use the service during the year.

Just as with any [insurance] policy, which is what that amounts to.