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PToN
Premium
join:2001-10-04
Houston, TX

Anyone here get any sort of OT???

Ok, so it is understood that most of our jobs can cause huge disruptions if maintenance is done during regular business hours. And while it is acceptable to expect us to work outside of those hours, i find it a bit harsh for someone to expect IT to work on holidays for no compensation at all of any sort.

Company is closing Monday, so everyone was asked to turn in mandatory time off forms, no problem. I asked my boss to let me know what to put for the reason on the time off form as i worked all of thanksgiving (wed night, thur, Fri and Sat). His response is:
quote:
Part of being on salary is you don’t get paid for hours over 40 hours. IT career path guarantees working holidays and nights there’s no getting around it. What I do will all my salary people is monitor how much they are working OT compared to others on salary. I then kind of fudge on what I turn in for the official days taken so to match other salary personnel.
With this being said don’t turn in the Wed and Thursday sick to get equal with others. Is JJ on salary? If so working that one holiday does not count enough to get a day off I have some salary people working 60 hrs. a week regularly. The next day he works on a weekend or holiday he can have a day off.

With that definition, i can deduct that as long as the job gets done it doesnt matter if someone works 40 hours or 60 hours. Then, based on his concept i can say that if i get the job done in 20 hours, it is the same as working 40 hours....

I only had 3 jobs in my life ( 1st McDonalds(1yr), 2nd Compusa (3yr), and 3rd This Company(8yr) ) so i dont know much about the norm in the field and other companies.

How is OT handled everywhere else...? At this point i am not wanting to schedule any holiday work at all.

Thanks.


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON

1 edit
That would depend on labour laws. Here if you are on salary and you work more than 44 hours you are legally entitled to overtime. However, not many ever claim it.

Side note, before this job, I have only ever had to work nights and weekends at one other job in over 15 years of IT. This job is the second worst the other the worst.

EDIT: current and most other locations I worked did time off. Too much paperwork for the overtime


Taino

join:2010-10-15
Reviews:
·Optimum Online

1 edit
reply to PToN
That sounds like a total screw job. I have worked in IT for 18 years now and have run the gamut from Phone Support to Break Fix desktop to Lan Admin to Network Admin. Yes working nights, weekends and some holidays comes with the territory but even if you are salary most places will give you comp days for that (or the boss will if the company won't).

Everywhere I have worked and thus far it's been about 8 places in those years have either given a comp day off for working nights/weekends and nothing was ever scheduled for Thanksgiving/Christmas.

EDIT: Thanksgiving Day/Christmas Day. I have worked many a Saturday after TG as no one is even remoting/vpn'ing in those weekends.


netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1
reply to PToN
I have always been an exempt employee wherever I've been... meaning no overtime is offered and comp time is off the books. (meaning we have to keep track of it ourselves and we just let the boss know when we are using it).

That being said I have used comp time to make a day shorter...

I have never had to work over a scheduled holiday other than a couple day before and/or after for scheduled maintenance or cutovers. 99% of our stuff happens at night.


exocet_cm
Free at last, free at last
Premium
join:2003-03-23
New Orleans, LA
kudos:3
reply to PToN
Similar to netboy34 See Profile, comp time used to be off the books until the DoJ set up shop in the city's arse. Now everything is tracked (biometric time clock... ooohhh, more of a PITA than anything), no comp time, etc.

Any OT, if available, only comes in the form of designated budget money and almost always is there for homicides, no other crimes though.

In your case I would create a time sheet and be very meticulous about it. Might come to help you down the road. Keep it stashed away in a cabinet some where (never know when you might need to rely on it). I would then work closely, and humbly, with your supervisor to get the days/hours that you want off. Don't tout your time tracking or be a jerk about it. If you bite the hand that feeds you, you might find yourself standing in the unemployment line.
--
"All newspaper editorial writers ever do is come down from the hills after the battle is over and shoot the wounded." - Bruce Anderson
"I have often regretted my speech, never my silence." - Xenocrates
Check out my blog: »www.johndball.com

Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1
reply to PToN
OT? Comp time? Hahaha


SoJo
I'll Sleep when I am Dead
Premium
join:2002-05-07
Gilroy, CA
reply to PToN
We due a comp day, it has to be taken in the same pay period, so you can't store up comp days to take them all at one time.


Drex
Beer...The other white meat.
Premium
join:2000-02-24
Not There
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to exocet_cm
said by exocet_cm:

Any OT, if available, only comes in the form of designated budget money...

Pretty much what I've seen. The majority of jobs I've had have been as some form of contractor. Usually OT is built into the budget, BUT you have to get approval to work it and it's was only straight time (no time and a half, etc.)
My current job let's us flex the time. It's our responsibility to keep track of it. We don't get paid "extra" for it. I can only bill 40 hours/week no matter what I work.
--
I'm actually not funny, I'm just really mean and people think I'm joking.

lorennerol
Premium
join:2003-10-29
Seattle, WA
reply to PToN
Lots of it. I just don't get paid extra for it

There are salaried-exempt and salaried non-exempt positions. The latter get paid for OT, the former not. Most IT manager/sysadmin positions I've seen are exempt.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to PToN
Nope no OT here
I just have 25 vacation days per year and can have up to a max of 150% accrued.

But after I took December 2012 off I was told no more than 2 weeks at a time.


Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN
reply to PToN
The boss is very short sighted. Take care of your people and they will take care of you.

I worked for five months with a company that had the same mentality as your company. I was on call 24/7 and still had to show up to work on time the next morning. For the five months I was there I don't think I got a solid night's sleep. I was happy to be let go.

That said, like Taino See Profile I've been doing this for a long time. I've flopped back and forth between hourly, salaried, salaried with over time. A lot of it depends on the company you're working for. I've worked for larger companies, multi-state and global, in both of those instances I was hourly or salaried with overtime due to their interpretation of the labor laws. Any time, with the exception of the job above, if you worked over time or off hours you got comp time to take later, normally the same week or next week, not banked.
--
"Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." - Robert A. Heinlein


Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

1 recommendation

reply to exocet_cm
said by exocet_cm:

In your case I would create a time sheet and be very meticulous about it.

This is a very good idea. One of the companies I worked for changed us from salaried to hourly due to a new interpretation. We were paid overtime back dated to the time when the change took affect.
--
"Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." - Robert A. Heinlein

wolfy339

join:2005-04-30
Edmonds, WA
reply to lorennerol
said by lorennerol:

There are salaried-exempt and salaried non-exempt positions.

For those of us not in the know here, what is the difference between the two and is there a quick and dirty way to tell if a position is/should be one or the other?
--
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Wily_One
Premium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
said by wolfy339:

For those of us not in the know here, what is the difference between the two

Exempt basically means "exempt from labor laws/overtime rules", aka salaried position. Non-exempt means hourly, which means overtime and other rules apply, depending on the local/state laws.

said by wolfy339:

...and is there a quick and dirty way to tell if a position is/should be one or the other?

The lay definition usually comes down to "professionals" (e.g. doctors, lawyers, and those with special training and/or degrees) are salary and hence exempt. What exactly defines each category gets into employment lawyer territory.

Companies, of course, want to consider everybody salary so they can work them to death and not pay overtime. There have been some big lawsuits and settlements when the court disagrees.

lorennerol
Premium
join:2003-10-29
Seattle, WA
said by Wily_One:

Non-exempt means hourly, which means overtime and other rules apply, depending on the local/state laws.

That's not quite accurate; there are hourly jobs, salaried-exempt, and salaried non-exempt.

Whether a salaried job is exempt or non-exempt depends on local labor laws and generally depends on the level of the position, whether it supervises other employees, and other factors. This sums it up pretty well:

»hrweb.mit.edu/compensation/job-e···onexempt

Edit to add: More here:

»www.flsa.com/coverage.html

JoelC707
Premium
join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL
kudos:5
reply to PToN
I appear to be in the minority here. I've always been paid hourly, not salaried. I get OT, paid at normal 1.5 rate for any and all OT work done (though lately I've never even come close to a full 40 hours a week as I'm not full time anymore). I got paid the normal 8 hours for holidays and if that managed to push me into OT then so be it.

All that said, I did get to generally set my own hours. What I would generally do is work a max of 7 hours a day which would leave me with ~5 hours to do weekend work with. I'd schedule any disruptive work for the weekend (and if I expected it to take all weekend I'd take time off during the week). If I didn't have any normal work for the weekend, I'd fill in the remaining time with system updates.

I was also free to "call out" as needed. Like if something broke during the day or evening and I stayed up half the night fixing it, I could stay home the following day. Of course that's partly because I was hourly and all that work I had just done was billable so letting me sleep in or stay home completely compensated for the time I just spent.

As far as salaried, you need to find out if you are exempt or not. You can be salaried and still collect OT pay. Sometimes this pay is limited in some way, such as needing to hit a certain threshold to qualify for OT or only being allowed so much OT before you are cut off. BUT as you found out, if you get the job done in half the time, you still get paid as if it took you the entire time. That could leave you free to catch up on other projects or simply go home if the work is slow.

Their quote seems to indicate you are exempt (don't collect OT at all) but may get comp time? That might be a question for your boss or HR, or should be in any employment contract you have.


Wily_One
Premium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to lorennerol
OK thanks for the clarification; I'm not an HR clerk so I just paraphrased. Whether it's hourly or salary, exempt and non-exempt mean what I said, which is what the question was asking: exempt employees don't receive overtime pay; nonexempt employees do.

HELLFIRE
Premium
join:2009-11-25
kudos:18
reply to PToN
Think everyone already said it... go see an HR lawyer or the local employment boards as to how IT is treated.

If it's all perfectly legal where you are for them to give you a screwjob, I SINCERELY hope the boss deigns to
take care of you SOMEhow... if not, maybe time to look for job #4, cuz a s**t sandwich is still a s**t sandwich,
no matter how you slice it.

My 00000010bits.

-BTW, salaried here, but anything over 40hrs is considered OT @ x1.5... nooo complaints here

Regards


Booost

@optonline.net
reply to Wily_One
said by Wily_One:

exempt employees don't receive overtime pay; nonexempt employees do.

Correct. But my employer does the following for exempt employees:

•straight time for OT, with a minimum of 8 hours in a week and approved in advance (e.g., work 7 hours OT, you get nothing)
•10% 2nd shift differential (starting time 2 PM or later)
•15% 3rd shift differential (starting time 11 PM or later)
•Comp time strictly prohibited, since that would be misrepresenting actual hours worked on your timecard


PToN
Premium
join:2001-10-04
Houston, TX
reply to PToN
Thanks all for the good info.

It's not that i am opposed to do the work during those times, in fact, since i started working here i have not had a true free holiday (except for Christmas) and been on 24/7 call. It's just that when i wanna take a day off, expects me to use my vacation or sick days, and my reaction (in my head) is: "what about those days i worked..?".

I'd like to be somehow be compensated for my time while everyone else is having a great time with family and friends... Be it a free day off, a happy hour after work, something that makes it worth it for me and my team, and this "worth it" should not be "keeping your job".

Thanks for the invaluable information you provided.

lorennerol
Premium
join:2003-10-29
Seattle, WA
said by PToN:

I'd like to be somehow be compensated for my time while everyone else is having a great time with family and friends... Be it a free day off, a happy hour after work, something that makes it worth it for me and my team, and this "worth it" should not be "keeping your job".

Seems very reasonable to me. Ask for it. The response you get will give you a lot of info about whether you want to continue working there.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to JoelC707
Where I worked before (and frankly I kinda want to go back) I was hourly.

plus Saturdays were automatic time and a half regardless of hours so far.

And Sundays were automatic double time regardless of hours so far.

Anything over 40 was time and a half.

Holidays and vacation days were paid as 8 hour days.

Any hours worked on a holiday were added on top of the holiday's 8 hours.

one Thanksgiving due to someone at corp implementing the new DHCP scopes before we had any vlans, I was called in as people couldn't work and thus got some OT that paycheck.

Another time near the end (I was at lowered hours because they were cutting staff due to reduced business) they forgot to call a security guard for the weekend so I ended up getting (Sunday work) double time just to sit around the office and walk around to be sure no one suspicious showed up.

When I'd started there it was operating 24/7 when I left it was down to 8/4, though I've heard that they're back to 24/7 now but after all the improvements I helped with they don't have much need for an on site IT person anymore.

Sure if you divide my salary by 52*40 I get paid more per hour where I'm at now and I have more vacation time (old place was 8 days per year) but frankly I enjoyed myself more back there.
--
semper idem
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JoelC707
Premium
join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL
kudos:5
said by DarkLogix:

after all the improvements I helped with they don't have much need for an on site IT person anymore.

That's my problem now. They've never really needed a full time on-site IT person and I started off part-time. I went to full time for a couple of years but am now part-time and 1099'd not W2.

The infrastructure is really self-sufficient. Other than system updates, there's nothing I really do on a regular basis anymore. I've gotten a bit more hours lately because of server moves and other changes but once those are done I'll be back to just updates.

wolfy339

join:2005-04-30
Edmonds, WA
reply to PToN
Hourly, non-exempt here so I get time and half for overtime. Overtime happens to be verboten for me though.


Wily_One
Premium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA
reply to Booost
Yep, there are companies that will only do the bare minimum as required by law, and then there are some good companies that actually try to treat their employees a little better.


dennismurphy
Put me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to PToN
Been exempt as long as I can remember.

When I was in IT, the way it worked for us was completely unofficial - in other words, working late etc. happened but nobody busted your rocks if you needed to go to a doctor's appointment or stay home with your kid when they're off school, etc. One hand washed the other.

Now I'm a sales weasel (selling IT gear) and I'm straight salary + commissions. Those comm's are enough that the idea of OT doesn't ever enter my head - doing what I have to do to keep the customer happy is all I care about.

Having the freedom to make that happen is quite empowering. I love what I'm doing now even more than I ever did running my own Unix sysadmin team.

Exempt for really big corporation.

Outside but not sales.

My avoiding "disruptions" means hopping on a plane and getting to a customer after they have closed down for the day

I get whatever my salary is no matter what.

They pay my expenses without question.

Standard sick and vacation days: use 'm or lose 'm.

Unwritten rule is, I do my job that may take 50 hours one week and 20 the next.

Or as my boss likes to say "I don't really know what you do but until I get a complaint, keep doing it".

Works for me!

mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to PToN
My current job description states that I'm an exempt employee and our budget doesn't have an allowance for OT, ever. That being said, policy says we have two options working outside of normal hours.

1. Plan for the project in advance and work flex time to accommodate for known maintenance. This is often hard to do since you never know exactly how long it will take, but you know what the max maintenance window is. If you over plan flex then you owe the company time. If you under plan then you scramble to get the job done.
2. (Preferred method) Work the standard week but have comp time approved in advance (estimate time). We are awarded 1.5 to 1 on comp time, so 1 hour over = 1.5 hours back. This allows us to do the job right no matter how long it takes, and is easier to plan with the wife (ie - I'll be at work until the job is done). Comp time accumulated has to be used in the same pay period unless it is an abnormally high amount.

The difference between using comp time and using vacation time though is that when I'm using comp time I'm still expected to be available on my phone and come in if necessary. So it's not hard time off. Vacation on the other hand means I turn off my phone and disconnect from work. There are only a couple of people that know how to get a hold of me if the place was melting down.

This seems like a pretty fair deal to me and helps to eliminate burn out. I know that if I have to give more to the company they'll take care of me for it, and they have.

BosstonesOwn

join:2002-12-15
Wakefield, MA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to PToN
I must be the only one who runs my shop like this, but here goes.

I give comp days for anything after 5 pm and before 8 am. You work an extra 2 hours during the night, take the next day off or collect the time and take a day off later.

OT... absolutely not, I don't want my guys in here more then 40 hours. and I give them free reign over their schedule.

I have one guy in at 6 am out at 2pm.

Depending on my budget I'll slide folks "OT" meaning if I got money in my budget I give them "OT" hours. The major problem with it is that they are paid their normal rate. And I distribute all of my "OT" budget equally among the team, and they never have to work it I do this because if the company isn't giving bonuses and my guys are keeping my world secure, and my systems up so the business runs, then they deserve something !

I am also very lenient, in the fact that I do my maintenance during the business day. When they gripe at us and say no, I say tough luck, I run a tight ship and we are redundant and have excess capacity for this reason. My guys are not on call. I refuse to do that, I tell them now always we are not a 365/7/24 shop. There is nothing so critical as it can't wait for the morning. Since I lost control of my mail cluster to the mother ship nothing is worth waking them up.

Our groups hate maintenance during the day, but my success rate has climbed from 65% to over 95% due to us doing it during normal business hours when we have 4 guys doing it instead of 1. And ya know what my, guys are more then happy with this. Once I prove the merits to the cio and ceo they backed off and let me do it my way

When it comes to holidays, my salary guys get them paid , so do my hourly guys. None of them come to the office and none of them even log in. It's only fair !

So far this has worked very well for me, our guys have a solid 5 9's uptime and we are able to push out customer patches with in hours of the bugs being reported. We are making money hand over fist due to customers loving that we can respond faster then a competitor, although the mothership doesn't share the spoils with us any more, we still have pride in what we do and my guys are here 35 hours a week and able to go home and enjoy their family life. And yes we are understaffed and running lean, but we are like a well oiled machine, everyone has a role and we work together to get it done.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"


tubbynet
reminds me of the danse russe
Premium,MVM
join:2008-01-16
Chandler, AZ
kudos:1
reply to PToN
said by PToN:

Ok, so it is understood that most of our jobs can cause huge disruptions if maintenance is done during regular business hours. And while it is acceptable to expect us to work outside of those hours, i find it a bit harsh for someone to expect IT to work on holidays for no compensation at all of any sort.

i think i'm in a slightly different than most people here.
i don't work for an it department -- i'm on the outside coming in. therefore -- we will (generally) do whatever work we have to if we're paid well enough. its tough finding engineers that would be away from family, friends, etc -- most of my team is on the road about 65-75% of the year anyway.

we're all exempt -- so no overtime pay. however -- last year, i was asked to forgo about 45 hours of pto that i had planned to perform some emergency changes that a customer wanted done before the break (this was like the 18th -- 23rd of december). i didn't receive any ot -- but i basically received double in comp time and had a majority of the month of january paid off.

my company values their engineering staff -- as we're the unsung heroes of making our customers happy. while we're asked to do a lot -- work/life balance is very important to ensuring happy and committed engineers.

q.
--
"...if I in my north room dance naked, grotesquely before my mirror waving my shirt round my head and singing softly to myself..."