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SeattleMatt
Streaming Tech Director
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join:2001-12-28
Seattle, WA

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Re: Netflix unable to stream HD in Northeast?

PJL-
I agree. Something has definitely become worse in the past few weeks.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

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PJL

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JeepMat, since Netflix is solely in control of setting up and limiting stream quality (when no buffering exists, which is automatic as a result of true network congestion) is appears to me that Netflix is playing games. That's why I'm more inclined to believe the assertions made by Verizon (»publicpolicy.verizon.com ··· ion-myth) over Netflix's public statements.

nothing00
join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

nothing00

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said by PJL:

Netflix is solely in control of setting up and limiting stream quality

Whhaaaa?
serge87
join:2009-11-29
New York

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said by PJL:

JeepMat, since Netflix is solely in control of setting up and limiting stream quality (when no buffering exists, which is automatic as a result of true network congestion) is appears to me that Netflix is playing games. That's why I'm more inclined to believe the assertions made by Verizon (»publicpolicy.verizon.com ··· ion-myth) over Netflix's public statements.

Netflix can choose WHICH route it takes to Verizon, even if it's the worst route(in order to make a point). I don't think they actually throttle the bitrate though, just f#ck around with the routes enough to make it as bad as possible for Verizon customers and put pressure on Verizon.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

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said by serge87:

I don't think they actually throttle the bitrate though,

My testing shows they do put a limit on the rates. Otherwise, why would I have gotten anything less than stellar performance at 4am?

guppy_fish
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join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

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guppy_fish

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Netflix does not have unlimited server bandwidth ( nothing to do with transit ).

While Netflix loves blaming the peering congestion or ISP networks for sub-par performance, there is a reality that Netflix doesn't have the server capacity to send super HD to all that request it, that's what PJL is seeing
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

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said by guppy_fish:

Netflix does not have unlimited server bandwidth ( nothing to do with transit ).

While Netflix loves blaming the peering congestion or ISP networks for sub-par performance, there is a reality that Netflix doesn't have the server capacity to send super HD to all that request it, that's what PJL is seeing

I would agree with you on this possibility (capacity to stream) during peak or maybe daytime hours, but at four in the morning? And on different clients run consecutively during the same time frame? Really?

nothing00
join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

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said by PJL:

Otherwise, why would I have gotten anything less than stellar performance at 4am?

I'm curious what type of device you're using? (You've probably mentioned it somewhere already.)

Something that can affect it that's outside of Netflix's control is the TCP receive window. If a device has a small(er) window latency can start to become an issue and limit throughput.

I'm not saying this has anything to do with what you're seeing. Just wanted to mention that there are many things outside of Netflix's control, even at 4am.

edit:
Looks like it'd have to be a fairly small TCP receive window or very large delay to impact things.

»www.switch.ch/network/to ··· oughput/

guppy_fish
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join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

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guppy_fish

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Looks like its called DASH and is on top of TCP ...
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

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The results I posted earlier were on the same machine (Windows 8.1) running both the Netflix Windows 8 app and IE 11 in desktop mode, sequentially at 4am. The PC is hardwired. My Netflix account is set for HTML5 (not Silverlight). I use the Netflix Test Pattern video for seeing the stream rates. That's how I saw the rates and could count the seconds for the stream to settle out at the levels indicated.

So I just re-ran the test including two other clients. It's approximately 8:45 am PDT. Clients were run sequentially in the order listed. All results are better than they have been in a long while for a given client. Usually #2 gets the best results.

1. Using a Sony Blu-ray client the stream rapidly ramped up to 4300kbps within 5 seconds and stayed there. (I cannot determine the Netflix server and path on the Sony machine.) The connection is WiFi with a connection speed of 65000bps.
2. Using the Android client to cast to Chromecast (the casting is a direct connection between Netflix and the Chromecast once the cast is initiated by the way) the stream ramped up to 5800kbps within four seconds and stayed there. (I cannot determine the Netflix server and path on Chromecast.) The connection is via WiFi, and I cannot determine the connection speed (although it's probably the same or higher as for #1 since the Chromecast device is about 10 inches from the WiFi router).
3. Accessing via IE 11 in the desktop mode running on the same machine as #4 the scream ramped up to 5800 kbps within 12 seconds and stayed there. The Netflix server was ipv4_1.lagg0.c002.lax004.ix.nflxvideo.net via a telia.net route.
4. Windows 8 app ramped running on the same machine as #3 the stream ramped up to 3000kbps in 15 seconds and stayed there. It never went higher. The Netflix server was ipv4_1.lagg0.c039.lax004.ix.nflxvideo.net via a Level3 route.
dfwguy
join:2013-10-24

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said by guppy_fish:

WRONG

Video is transmitted as UDP, Not TCP, there is no hand shaking delays the TCP incurs and hence things like receive windows have no meaning with UDP

Nope. Modern adaptive streaming technologies are almost exclusively designed around HTTP, and therefore TCP. From a technical perspective, it's not ideal, but it's the best way to limit BS from user-side proxies and firewalls that might only pass HTTP. Plus, it's trivial to offload everything onto a CDN using HTTP since they're already designed for it, where they may be unwilling or unable to handle other protocols.

guppy_fish
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join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish

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Opps ... I stand corrected!

nothing00
join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

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Nice.

That's a lot of testing. Interesting to see so much variation between devices/clients and even connections from the same home and PC!

Clear as mud unfortunately.
navyson
join:2011-07-15
Upper Marlboro, MD

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I was in the caribbean recently with my family and we brought with us our Roku 3. Netflix streamed in beautiful HD the whole time using a 20 megabit cable connection down there.

Came back to the US using my 50 megabit FIOS connection and Netflix reverts back to streaming poorly
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

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said by nothing00:

Nice.

That's a lot of testing. Interesting to see so much variation between devices/clients and even connections from the same home and PC!

Clear as mud unfortunately.

Well to me the mud looks like Netflix!

biggbrother
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join:2001-11-07
Providence, RI

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Level 3 steps into the fray, blasts Verizon on their blog for failing to invest in hardware on their side of the network "border". They even offer to pay for the equipment. They also pretty handily explain the problem that most people can actually understand.

Looks like the pressure is increasing on Verizon..

»Level3: Verizon Intentionally Causing Netflix Congestion [183] comments
blue_trooper
join:2007-04-17
Exton, PA

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said by biggbrother:

Level 3 steps into the fray, blasts Verizon on their blog for failing to invest in hardware on their side of the network "border". They even offer to pay for the equipment. They also pretty handily explain the problem that most people can actually understand.

Looks like the pressure is increasing on Verizon..

No, it just looks like more PR finger pointing.

guppy_fish
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More like the middle men are all scurrying around realizing there days are numbered.

Nothing Cogent, L3 or Netflix prints is worth more than the paper or bits they use, there is no pressure and VZ, ATT , Comcast will do as they see fix for the benefit of there shareholders, that what public company's do.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

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I went ahead and read the actual L3 document to ensure the DSLReports page contained all salient points of the original article. It does I believe. What I was looking for was information regarding the peering agreement between Verizon and L3. Either Verizon is not "connecting up more 10Gbps ports on those routers" because of the motive implied by L3, or it's a result of the peering agreement between L3 and Verizon? Since we don't have the latter, we can't really judge who's to blame although one can infer since much more traffic is likely sent to the Verizon network from L3 than from the Verizon network to L3. The same could be said for Telia and NTT, the networks that my routes to Netflix usually follow.

So maybe I shouldn't point the finger at Netflix but rather at their content provider ISPs and the realities of their peering points, something we can't say for sure. Maybe Netflix should making press pronouncements about their content provider ISPs instead of Verizon. But the public wouldn't understand those as well. And if the peering agreements were more in line with the reality of the network traffic loads each way, it might cost those interconnecting content provider ISPs more money, which they would recover from Netflix. But all of this gets lost in the discussion when the PR people are the ones speaking.

At least we saw actual hard data from Verizon about traffic, and we saw some from L3. From Verizon, I say "something is wrong with the connections back to Verizon" (which is what Verizon really is saying without mentioning peering agreements) and L3 essentially says the same thing but implies the peering agreement includes more connecting "wires" and Verizon isn't plugging them in. Which makes more sense from a legal standpoint? If the peering agreement (a contract I would expect) required more connections and Verizon refused L3's request to add them, the lawyers would be involved (to enforce the peering agreement). But the lawyers aren't (at least publicly).

Interesting:

When I open a Netflix stream I either get a connection with ipv4_1.lagg0.c047.lax001.ix.nflxvideo.net [108.175.46.92] (which routes through NTT) or to ipv4_1.lagg0.c002.lax004.ix.nflxvideo.net [198.38.96.131] (which routed through Telia) depending on the way I connect, i.e. via IE or the Windows 8 client. I routinely get lower connection rates through the Telia connection. I would think that server is assigned by Netflix (as stated in prior posts). I rarely see connections through L3 using these clients. (I can think of once in the past two weeks.) This issue is common to all companies Netflix uses for it's transit.

biggbrother
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Providence, RI

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Doesn't sound like "PR" to me. Sounds like a legitimate explanation. It also explains why Netflix plays in full HD on my 55-inch plasma using my phone as a wifi hotspot and T-Mobile LTE. At all times of day, peak and off-peak.

It also explains why Amazon Prime is not seeing the same problem, as they use a different provider. It also explains why using VPN results in Netflix running in full HD.

The evidence is all pointing to Verizon as being the main cause.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

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PJL

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biggbrother, if L3 really wanted to make a legitimate (non-PR statement) about what's going on they should mention the peering agreement contract and if they and Verizon are complying with it or not. But they never seem to mention that. Most people wouldn't even understand what that means even though it's of ultimate importance in who's to blame.

With no information on the terms and conditions of the peering agreement contracts, it's hard for me to "point to Verizon as being the main cause" when it's not just the consumer customers of Verizon -- it's AT&T and Comcast (before Netflix connected directly to them) and other large consumer ISPs.

The peering agreements are important, but they're probably confidential so we may never see them. If these show Verizon's at fault, I'll be on the bandwagon to point my finger at them. Until then, I can't. "The evidence" is missing a vital piece of data: the peering agreements. And "the evidence is all pointing" isn't the case in my mind. With the limitation of not seeing the peering agreements I can say that it might be inclusive (since we're hearing conflicting assertions from each side of the argument). But Occam's razor leads me to point at the peering agreement compliance, and that would be to the Netflix content provider ISPs and Netflix, and not Verizon.
blue_trooper
join:2007-04-17
Exton, PA

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said by biggbrother:

It also explains why Amazon Prime is not seeing the same problem, as they use a different provider. It also explains why using VPN results in Netflix running in full HD.

How do either of these point definitively to Verizon as the issue and not potentially to L3, etc.?
fferreres
join:2014-07-18

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I am unable to watch netflix normally around 6:30 ET and 1 Am eT. I noticed games also have network lag, sometimes 3-6 seconds lag at a time. Fios has become useless and I am about to switch providers. Gave them 6 months, but they don't value our business apparently, which is fine, and marks time to take the money elsewhere.

biggbrother
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Reddit is now on fire along with YouTube tests claiming evidence that Verizon is throttling or indirectly allowing throttling to occur.

I like the top rated comment. These Cable Companies / ISPs and Internet content companies are now on par with being direct competitors. It doesn't make sense for these cable companies to control the pipes as one company because they can manipulate their competitors product. The US DOJ should take notice.
Expand your moderator at work
ktulucom
join:2004-09-29
Argyle, TX

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Re: Netflix unable to stream HD in Northeast?

said by PJL:

biggbrother, if L3 really wanted to make a legitimate (non-PR statement) about what's going on they should mention the peering agreement contract and if they and Verizon are complying with it or not. But they never seem to mention that. Most people wouldn't even understand what that means even though it's of ultimate importance in who's to blame.

I work for a large provider, but I'm going to speak in general terms about this, and nothing specific to my employer.

Level3 was pretty open about the problem in their post, it helps to understand peering. Most peering agreements are setup so each network exchanges the same amount of traffic. The problem is Level3, Telia, NTT, etc., don't have many "eyeball" customers (i.e. FIOS customers) on their networks, and tend to be heavy in the content (i.e. Netflix) side. This makes peering levels imbalanced. The end result is sending more traffic than what you receive. Level3 (and I assume others) want to upgrade their peering with Verizon so they can send more traffic (thus increasing the level of service to Verizon customers), but Verizon refuses, probably because of the traffic imbalance.

I also believe Netflix has purchased connections from Verizon, but the provisioning of those new connections seems to be taking a while to get setup. The result, if you're on FIOS and use Netflix (I do), you're going to have issues until all of this stuff gets resolved :/
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

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ktulucom, I think you made some good points, especially your observation about the traffic imbalance. Since the peering contracts have not been made public, it's hard to say but it's a good bet that the imbalance exist.

Why would Verizon not update those peering points? One possibly is that they want money from Level3, Telia, or NTT to do it to compensate for the imbalance. The other is that they're trying to eliminate the middleman from the path from Netflix to Verizon. But that's what's happening as Netflix connects directly to the Verizon network. Netflix won't have to pay the middlemen for transit. They'll pay it to Verizon for the connection. Will this be more or less than what they were paying the middlemen? Hmmmm...I scratch my head on that one.
billhere
join:2011-10-21
Santa Monica, CA

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I have had no problems at all streaming Netflix HD shows in my free month of service. I stream using my Apple TV and have set the Apple TV to use Google's servers rather than Verizon's. We watch in prime time on the West Coast. I really like the Netflix lineup of free TV shows without commercials.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

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said by billhere:

I have had no problems at all streaming Netflix HD shows in my free month of service. I stream using my Apple TV and have set the Apple TV to use Google's servers rather than Verizon's. We watch in prime time on the West Coast. I really like the Netflix lineup of free TV shows without commercials.

Bill, which servers are your referring to? The DNS servers? Or the streaming server?
blue_trooper
join:2007-04-17
Exton, PA

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said by billhere:

I have had no problems at all streaming Netflix HD shows in my free month of service. I stream using my Apple TV and have set the Apple TV to use Google's servers rather than Verizon's. We watch in prime time on the West Coast.

I haven't really had any problems with NetFlix for a while. I watched a 90+ minute episode of Sherlock last night and it was HD the whole time w/o any pausing or glitches. I'm using Roku 3's and while I was using Google's DNS servers for a while I'm back to the regular Verizon settings.