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datguy11

@verizon.net
reply to 02778712

Re: [Electrical] Code question

Its also about insurance companies... Have a fire in your house that's been isolated to an illegal power cord ran in the walls for your tv might give them an out for paying your damages!


02778712

join:2013-07-08
MA
said by datguy11 :

Its also about insurance companies... Have a fire in your house that's been isolated to an illegal power cord ran in the walls for your tv might give them an out for paying your damages!

Play the lottery. You have better odds if you want to worry about insanely impossible events happening. I bet you have better odds of being struck by lightning, being mauled by a black bear, AND being mauled by a brown bear all on the same day. I'd definitely worry about it though!


dandeman
Premium,MVM
join:2001-12-05
Chapel Hill, NC
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

4 edits
reply to Jodokast96
nunya supplied an acceptable solution above and somebody questioned charging $45.00 for 20.00 worth of materials...

Long story below.. as to what powerbridge had to go thorough to provide a code compliant solution... it ain't cheap to design and put new products into production and obtain a test house listing that AHJ can go along with.......

The fundamental application/design issue of power cords through conduit is most likely the same issue with fixed wiring through conduits, conduits on rooftops, and other variants is, that the temperature rating of the wiring insulation must not be exceeded..

The NEC code, being a prescriptive code, states what can and can not be done with listed materials..

For example wiring in conduit on the rooftops of commercial buildings for AC units, generators, etc, must be derated (maximum allowed current) in some installation configurations, given that the insulation will be exposed to external sources of heat beyond the heat generated by the resistance of the conductors themselves carrying the rated current.

You will find in the NEC code for a given gauge of wire, different current ratings based on the particular insulation material used in the construction of that wire..

Now to power cords in conduit.... Applying the above, cord such as SJT is UL listed for the various current ratings per gauge size, for installation in a free air environment, meaning that the heat generated when carrying the rated current will be dissipated and the overall cable/insulation will remain within it's rated temperature limit.. Put that same wire in a conduit or other enclosed environment, the heat can not dissipate as well and could exceed the rated limit of the particular insulation used under maximum current conditions and subsequent deterioration and failure.

However, given many flat screen wall installations, especially if a comprehensive ground bond plate and surge suppressor is also part of the installation (and too big to fit behind the TV itself), it almost mandates cord and plug installation or other fixed wiring solution to get from a ground bond plate/suppressor system to the TV. The desire to put the cabling in the wall for appearance sake is clearly here.. as illustrated by the numerous posts above..

It's no surprise that electrical codes / approved solutions to new problems tend to lag demands of new electronics/technology, but eventually catches up..

It would appear an acceptable solution is available as nunya pointed out, that is for a company recognizing the need and with sufficient engineering resources, to manufacture power cords/solutions using insulation materials and wiring gauge RATED for installation in wall AND go to the expense to get the products UL listed and approved for such applications.. e.g.

»powerbridgesolution.com/aboutpow···dge.html

And there will be those who may say the current code does not cover that type of product and therefore not allowed.. but.. this situation comes up all the time e.g. with installation of UPS systems and other more complex systems.. and just not aware of how the situations are responsibly handled.

For that case, the manufacturer must as part of getting the equipment UL (or other accepted agency) approved, understand the limits of current codes for market jurisdictions and must provide explicit and exacting installation instructions (to be interpreted by the AHJ with the force of code) to approve such an installation.

This is the same scenario if you buy and install a wood stove these days, while building codes may address some requirements, the question will be is the product UL (or other acceptable agency) listed, and is the installation in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions?

Over time these "new ground" areas eventually work themselves into future NEC revisions.

I have not personally seen or used the above products, but hopefully in their design of the product, UL listing approval, and supplied documentation, they have a code compliant solution to the problem being discussed.

nunya, whizkid, does this seem a reasonably accurate summation of the problem and an acceptable solution?

--
To be persuasive we must be believable; to be believable we must be credible; to be credible we must be truthful. -- Edward R. Murrow

»home.4x4wire.com/deddleman/


whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9

1 edit
reply to Msradell
said by Msradell:

I don't believe that's the case because he told me what code section permitted it to be done that way. I didn't write it down at the time because it didn't matter. I do remember it was from the NEC, I believe the 2009 edition. His explanation was that because it was in conduit it was protected and not subject to damag

Your so-called 'code official' is wrong. There is nothign in the NEC that provides any exception to the prohibition of running power cords through walls, if they are protected from damage. Likewise, there is no such thing as a 2009 NEC. Sorry, but your whole discussion reeks of baloney, IMHO.

said by dandeman:

I have not personally seen or used the above products, but hopefully in their design of the product, UL listing approval, and supplied documentation, they have a code compliant solution to the problem being discussed.

nunya, whizkid, does this seem a reasonably accurate summation of the problem and an acceptable solution?

I can't comment much on your 'summation' which seems to elaborate on the reason that one cant run power cords through walls. There is likely a myriad of reasons, but I have never reviewed the public debate on the issue that resulted in this code requirement. Honestly, I think its just common sense. On the opposite, there is only one reason that people want to run power cords through walls - cheapness. They don't want to spend money to do it or have it done properly in a code compliant fashion. That will never be an accepted reason that the electrical code will permit something. Yes, there are suitable, code compliant products. They cost money. One can do it properly; or wire it like a hillbilly. Its up to them.

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

1 recommendation

This reminds me of the thread a few years ago where a guy wanted to run power to a platic garden shed via a "permanently installed" extension cord. He just didn't want to hear "NO" no matter what.


Drex
Beer...The other white meat.
Premium
join:2000-02-24
Not There
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to stevek1949
said by stevek1949:

I have used a couple of these kits before. No flex cable in the wall. UPS on the power side, power connector and cable included. It's a little of work, but it hided the cables well.

»www.monoprice.com/Product/?c_id=···rgeimage

That's exactly what I used. Very easy to install. You just have to have an outlet close by to jack in to.
--
I'm actually not funny, I'm just really mean and people think I'm joking.