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pantss
join:2013-12-31

pantss

Member

Can bad phone line down stream affect upstream internet?

Hi, I'm using 2701 and it has been resetting itself frequently these days.

I'm getting the dreaded 'suspicious - check filter and line error'. There are tons of errors under DSL link errors, as well as the uncanceled echo. I called my telco and the tech they sent down wasn't helpful at all. He changed the filter, tested my line on his Aztecs modem and showed that there were no errors. He insisted that it was normal for the 2wire modem to show errors and that it was company policy to only change if the modem fails to power.

This internet line is a separate line - it is connected to one other device which is a fax machine. I opened up my trunking and saw that the line (from the filter) running to the fax is shoddily spliced together. Hence my question. Can a downstream line after the filter affect my internet? Also, what can I do to solve the issue?

PS: with both my older filter and the supposedly new filter, whenever I pick up the handset on the fax machine the internet has a 50/50 chance of dying. Also, this issue happened only recently. The upstream phone line is about 15-20 years old though.

wayjac
MVM
join:2001-12-22
Indy

wayjac

MVM

You should have a look at the modems detailed log it may offer clues to the reboots
Sounds like the filter may have failed
pantss
join:2013-12-31

pantss

Member

Click for full size
Click for full size
Thanks for the reply!

It's a supposedly new filter that the tech installed. And it seemed to make no difference if I used my original (old) or his (new).

The modem has been resetting itself (faint click sound), so my status report is rather short-lived. Anyway, I've attached the status screenshots. Is that the log?
bbear2
Premium Member
join:2003-10-06
dot.earth

bbear2

Premium Member

Where did the Tech check you line from? At the NIC? Inside?

Have you tried removing (unplugging) everything except the 2wire from your line to see if you can get that uncancelled echo error to go away?
pantss
join:2013-12-31

pantss

Member

Early in the day, he called me and he said it seems fine from 'his side'. And when he came down, he simply changed the microfilter, connected my phone line to his battery-powered aztech modem and said that he saw no errors and that it's fine. I reasoned that it was fine and dandy because it's his modem. I needed a change but he refused, citing company policy and that 'it is normal for 2wire to display multiple errors'.

Yes, I have tried removing everything. I've even tried rerouting some of my telephone lines and putting them as far as possible away from electrical lines (EM interference?).

As far as I can tell, the uncancelled echo reading is random. I can restart my modem and it gives me a negative ('OK'/good) reading or when it resets itself it will always come back on with a different reading.
bbear2
Premium Member
join:2003-10-06
dot.earth

bbear2

Premium Member

I"m only guessing here, but it sounds like you might have a crossed or loosely crossed connection. Is it feasible to disconnect some of your telephone wiring lines and leave only the one going to your 2wire? I'm referring to your internal wiring specifically.
pantss
join:2013-12-31

1 edit

pantss

Member

Click for full size
Actually, there is only ONE wall socket for this very line/number. This is the second number for my house.

Should I look into disconnecting the lines of the other number?
pantss

pantss

Member

Also, may I ask if it's possibly a faulty modem if I say that with new filters, my internet line SOMETIMES disconnects when I connect a phone to the (phone socket) of the microfilter and lift up the handset?
bbear2
Premium Member
join:2003-10-06
dot.earth

bbear2

Premium Member

The filter is for your voice phone only so that you don't hear the high pitch frequencies of your DSL line. Your DSL line does not really care about the filters as long as they haven't gone bad in some way.

If you get d/c when you plug/unplug things into the filter, it's more likely cause your injecting a lot of noise on the line or there's a loose connection to begin with.
bbear2

bbear2 to pantss

Premium Member

to pantss
if the two lines are using separate cables, then it's unlikely that one is affecting the other. Yes you should look at the junction box inside the one wall socket to see how clean the line connections are. You might also find that the line does go elsewhere even though it might not be used anymore.
pantss
join:2013-12-31

pantss

Member

Alright, thank you very very much bbear!
pantss

pantss

Member

Sorry, new discovery today. Today the internet has been fine but I lost voice call capabilities. No dial tone, no noise. Internet works well. I opened up the wall socket and it read 2-4v on my voltmeter. I then took my voltmeter to the lines at the box outside my house.

It's a 2 line POTS system and one line read 48v (one lead of multimeter on line and the other grounded) and the second line read 45-46v. And yes, the difference gave me the 2-4v at my wall socket. I'm pretty sure I measured the correct lines. There are no other lines.

Is this definitely a fault of my telephone company? Is it possible that they may claim that it's my fault of some sort?
bbear2
Premium Member
join:2003-10-06
dot.earth

1 recommendation

bbear2

Premium Member

If you are without dial tone, then you need to call that in. If you'd like to troubleshoot this some on your own, then go out to the NIC and hopefully it has an RJ11 that you can plug a phone into to test. Also, please confirm which color wiring pairs you are looking at. And FYI, the voltage on a POTS line is -48V DC; and there's an 90V AC component when the line rings.

For more interesting reading: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ti ··· and_ring
bbear2

1 recommendation

bbear2 to pantss

Premium Member

to pantss
Another little page you might find interesting and helpful if you need to trace down wiring. »wire-your-phones.com/
pantss
join:2013-12-31

1 recommendation

pantss

Member

My lines do not seem to be of standard colors - I have orange, green, blue and brown, and the ones I'm connected to are blue and brown. They are all solid colors and have no stripes or anything like those on wire-your-phones.

Also, my bad, I was using my digital multimeter the wrong way round.

I went to my friend's place and his lines were at
-50v and -1v, giving a difference of -49v.

For me, the lines were at -48v and -46v when measured outside the house. This explains why I'm only getting -2V (on hook) at my wall socket. The ADSL works but phones do not work.

I wonder why my tip (presumably the less negative one and the -48v line is the ring) is at such a high voltage.

Thanks a lot bbear2 for your patience and help!
bbear2
Premium Member
join:2003-10-06
dot.earth

bbear2

Premium Member

Well that is strange for the wires coming into your NIC, but what really matters is that none of the pairs are crossed. The "normal" pairing is normally R/G(primary) and then B/Y (secondary).

I forgot, when you started getting these 'suspicious - check filter and line error' - did something change?

Also, are you 100% certain that none of the pairs are crossed somewhere?
pantss
join:2013-12-31

pantss

Member

When those errors started popping out, nothing changed. I didn't touch anything (I swear!).

Timeline:
1) The modem disconnected and reconnected or had a red service light, after which it would restart. The frequency was a few times a week, then multiple times a day.

2) I then checked my phones. My phones on that same line (passing through the microfilters) started sounding crackly. There were dial tones.

3) Called the telco. Had 3 technicians come down on 3 separate occasions.

a) The first tech did nothing but offered to rewire my house at a *special* rate.

b) The second tech said it was normal. Instead he told me he had a deal for fibre internet.

c)The third tech went on a rampage.
i) He re-routed my existing lines at the telephone junction box/pole.
ii) He then cut, spliced and reconnected my wires inside my house, before finally offering to rewire my house at the special rate too.
This was when my line got worse. The noises were much louder and my internet disconnects every 15-30mins. To which he claimed that he has tried everything and that the lines inside my house are too old (about 25 years old).

As you know, getting the official rewiring team from the telco would cost an arm. I know fibre is a bit more costly monthly, but in the long run it would cost more than just rewiring.

4) I declined their offers and rewired my house internally. My internet is now very stable but I've lost voice communications totally. I did MULTIPLE trials and errors before I finally had the idea (from google) to measure the lines coming in outside my house. This was when I discovered that the lines coming in were at -48v and -46v and that the net voltage at the phone socket was and still is at -2v.

So, I'm pretty sure I didn't cross my lines inside my house because I checked the voltages outside my house. As for what's on the outside, I have no idea. I think it's illegal to meddle with the telephone pole so that's out of bounds.
bbear2
Premium Member
join:2003-10-06
dot.earth

bbear2

Premium Member

said by pantss:

When those errors started popping out, nothing changed. I didn't touch anything (I swear!)....

welcome to the world of DSL and yes we believe you
said by pantss:

...
4) I declined their offers and rewired my house internally. My internet is now very stable but I've lost voice communications totally. I did MULTIPLE trials and errors before I finally had the idea (from google) to measure the lines coming in outside my house. This was when I discovered that the lines coming in were at -48v and -46v and that the net voltage at the phone socket was and still is at -2v.

Do I understand you correctly in that your internet now is okay, but you have no voice line?

If so, have you then gone back to the NIC box and verified whether or not you can get a voice (dial tone) outside, before your house wiring? If you can, then the issue is with your internal wiring. If not, then the telco has to get you a dial tone at least to the NIC.
pantss
join:2013-12-31

pantss

Member

Yes. Internet is very stable with no disconnection or restarts. The errors are still piling up on the modem page though.

I cannot get a dial tone before my house wiring. The voltage seems way too low to even power a handset (-2v). It does look like I should get my telco.

Thanks bear!
bbear2
Premium Member
join:2003-10-06
dot.earth

bbear2

Premium Member

You're welcome. Any updates?
kruser
Premium Member
join:2002-06-01
Eastern MO

kruser to pantss

Premium Member

to pantss
said by pantss:

Yes. Internet is very stable with no disconnection or restarts. The errors are still piling up on the modem page though.

I cannot get a dial tone before my house wiring. The voltage seems way too low to even power a handset (-2v). It does look like I should get my telco.

Thanks bear!

It sounds like you have a shorted pair somewhere along the line.
If no voice outside at the NID with all internal wiring disconnected on your line that should have voice, I think I'd call in for POTS trouble and don't even mention the DSL part at all at this point. If no dial tone at the NID with all inside wiring disconnected, that should be a free service call as it is a problem in their end between the NID and the drop or pole or underground somewhere.
Your noise margin in your first screen shot is a bit near the low side but I've seen worse on more stable lines.
I've also noticed that you will see more errors build up as the noise margin is nearing the low end but that is to be expected as it take less outside noise sources to produce the errors on the DSL side.
Try and see if you can get the POTS side working as it should again before troubleshooting the DSL side.
Do both your line have POTS service or rather, should they and did you lose it on both?

And yes, a downstream filter can affect the DSL signal before the filter. In theory as one of the others helping you pointed out, you don't even need a filter at all if all you have on that line is the 2wire. In your case, you mentioned the downstream filter and fax machine, I'd try and run some cat 5 from the NID directly to the 2wire only and disconnect all other inside wiring and then check your 2wire stats and also see if you get dial tone on the pair that feeds the 2wire.
You can check for dial tone with our without a filter but don't leave the phone connected when you hook the 2wire up as it will be unfiltered and effect the 2wire's signal levels.
If you can get dial tone back on the line, try a simple plug in filter at the fax machine and see if that alters the 2wires readings providing you can get dial tone working again.

If you can get POTS working again, try looking at the various FAQs (check the at&t forums FAQs as they held a lot of good troubleshooting info back when I had a pair of DSL lines) (any of the DSL based forums should have some troubleshooting info as well as its all the same technology unless you are fiber to the home) in the forum as there are a LOT of internal devices that you may own that can and will cause the uncancelled echo in the 2wires stats page. Especially with a lower noise margin.
I'm basing this off the old original DSL but the same should apply for any copper based uverse or DSL or DSL2 that is also copper based.
When my neighbors started getting Uverse, the crosstalk from the higher speed Uverse signals wiped out my measly 6 Mbyte DSL signals to the point my noise margin started dropping below 6 and then the old 2Wire could no longer sync at full rate any longer. As neighbors would move and have their uverse shutdown, my signals would come back up again only for a new neighbor to move in and try uverse again which did not really work here anyway due to a bad copper bundle that at&t would not replace as it went under a major road. I was finally forced to cancel it and go to a cable connection.
When I had the pair of DSL lines and before uverse signals started causing crosstalk on my pairs, my DSL was rock solid and worked very well though. I had both lines for many years but the Uverse signals killed it off. All my wiring was underground as well which really helped with noise problems.
When the power would go out in the complex, my DSL signals would reach some of the best signal levels ever. Most of that was due to the fact that I had large UPS units that kept my DSL modems online but all the neighbors Uverse modem would lose power and signal and that stopped the crosstalk.
Even after the power was restored, my DSL signals remained very good as I later found that most of the Uverse users modems would not retrain unless they were power cycled manually. As neighbors would come home and find no TV or Internet, my DSL signals would slowly fade away as those neighbors rebooted their modems. I'd cringe everyday that the Uverse neighbors in my building came home as my DSL signal would become almost useless as they power cycled their 2Wires when they came home. I could barely get a 2.xxx something Mbps throughput on either line.
Each building was ran by 25 pairs from the master cable bundle that was a 400 or maybe 600 pair cable bundle. They basically assigned just 25 pairs to each building which could only have 18 residents tops per building. It was originally only 9 units per building so 25 pairs was more than enough to give everyone two or more pairs if needed back in the day. Today they banked on the fact that most tenants would only use one pair if even that so you still has spare pairs that could be used if needed as most did not even have POTS service with the cell phone boom and faster but not as reliable cable service.
Today, the cable speeds trump the fastest Uverse speeds even if you could get them.
At one point, at&t did map out a new cable run from the CO that was to be put in service during a new highway build. They even poured the cement pad to the Vrad an all but to my knowledge, only half the complex was ever hooked to this new Vrad as they did not want to spend the money upgrading all the aging copper that winds its way through the complex.
Oh well, it was a nice ride for all the years I had it. I think it only went out pre-uverse days maybe once or twice so it was very reliable. I even had the old true static IP that did not need to PPPoE overhead known as "sticky static". I was too knew for the older original true DHCP service they offered at one time though.

Anyway, see if you can get that POTS service running again first and then get back to the Uverse or DSL troubleshooting.
When I did have noise issues on my DSL lines, I'd almost always call it in as a POTS problem as it usually was. You could hear the static on the lines. Plus I knew all the local line techs so I was pretty much assured it would be one of them that came over and would get me taken card of pretty fast. Usually within an hour or two back in those days!

It looks like you have not posted anything new on this problem since Jan 7 so hopefully you have gotten it all worked out but if so, it would be great if you could reply with the resolution and what was needed to be done to get you going again if that is the case!

Looks like bbear2 See Profile asked for the same info so inquiring minds would love to know the outcome!