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lordpuffer
RIP lil
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join:2004-09-19
Rio Rancho, NM
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·CableOne

[Plumbing] Is this a problem with a new Kohler Cimarron Toilet?

I just purchased this Kohler Cimarron toilet:

»www.us.kohler.com/us/Cimarron-Co ··· =5029312

I did not pay the $494.25 which is it's price for it on Kohler's website. To me, that price is nuts.

I had 2 major surgeries in 2013, and could not install it. So I hired someone that I trusted to put it in. It was put in and it works.

The only thing that I am hoping is not an issue is that you have to hold the handle down when flushing for about 1-2 seconds for the contents in the bowl to go down. I'm not used to that, for usually you just press the handle and just let it go.

Is having to hold the handle down for a couple of seconds to empty the contents an issue? I don't mind doing it as long as the toilet is not defective and is supposed to work that way. Thanks.
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Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then


Bamafan2277
Premium
join:2008-09-20
Jeffersonville, IN

[Plumbing] Re: Is this a problem with a new Kohler Cimarron Toilet?

There should be a chain connecting the handle to the flapper. try shortening the chain just a bit. This will allow the flapper to be pulled higher up when you flush and should give you the better flush.


Msradell
P.E.
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join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to lordpuffer
I'm not familiar with that toilet itself but I've never seen the toilet where you had to hold the handle down for a couple of seconds to get it to flush correctly. You may want to call Kohler and talk to them directly By reading the description of the toilet it doesn't have a conventional flapper that's pulled by a chain to start the flush action so we delay may be normal but they should know for sure.


lordpuffer
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reply to Bamafan2277
said by Bamafan2277:

There should be a chain connecting the handle to the flapper. try shortening the chain just a bit. This will allow the flapper to be pulled higher up when you flush and should give you the better flush.

Doesn't this toilet work on a completely different technology than older toilets? I had the person who installed it come over yesterday again to check it. He said that it's supposed to work this way. I probably should have hired a plumber to do it. I'm under the weather right now and cannot make any adjustments myself. I'll have to get some help.
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Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then


lordpuffer
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reply to Msradell
said by Msradell:

I'm not familiar with that toilet itself but I've never seen the toilet where you had to hold the handle down for a couple of seconds to get it to flush correctly. You may want to call Kohler and talk to them directly By reading the description of the toilet it doesn't have a conventional flapper that's pulled by a chain to start the flush action so we delay may be normal but they should know for sure.

Thanks. I'm going to have to call Kohler and ask them.
--
Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Our Toto did that, I think it was sort-of a dual flush mechanism. Push and release and you'd get a "partial" flush, enough for urine, but push, hold and release would give a full flush, enough to BIG jobs.


lordpuffer
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That's what I was thinking, that it's a dual flush mechanism, for a quick push will empty a very small job. However, I couldn't find anywhere on Kohler's website that says it's dual flush.
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Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
I think that is how manufacturers get around the low flow requirements. Just hold it down for a good old fashioned flush.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to lordpuffer

Re: [Plumbing] Is this a problem with a new Kohler Cimarron Toilet?

Check to see if you can increase the water level in the tank. We have one of those and as far as I remember there is nothing special about the flush mechanism which require the user to hold the lever down.

Other thing to try is to take the lid off of the tank and just watch while it flushes. As others have said, the mechanism connecting the lever to the flush mechanism may need adjustment. The piston design of this toilet is different from regular toilets and I don't remember the adjustments offhand.

That is a really good toilet and it flushes very well when set up correctly.


Hawk
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join:2003-08-25
The Desert
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reply to lordpuffer
We've observed throughout the spectrum that some flappers/pistons are so light they sometimes struggle to defeat the initial stronger rush of water from the tank through the flush valve when lifted and slam shut. It may just take a little more effort on the trip lever for them to float. This might seem to be a defect/problem with a new install. Something the homeowner may not be used to. My best guess. Just a thought.
Expand your moderator at work


lordpuffer
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reply to robbin

Re: [Plumbing] Is this a problem with a new Kohler Cimarron Toilet?

Thanks robbin.....That's a big help. I'm not able to check it right now but I'm calling Kohler sometime today and will see if what I am experiencing is somewhat normal. As I said, I don't mind it, I just want to make sure that the toilet is not going to crap out on me (pun intended).
--
Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then


lordpuffer
RIP lil
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reply to Hawk
said by Hawk:

We've observed throughout the spectrum that some flappers/pistons are so light they sometimes struggle to defeat the initial stronger rush of water from the tank through the flush valve when lifted and slam shut. It may just take a little more effort on the trip lever for them to float. This might seem to be a defect/problem with a new install. Something the homeowner may not be used to. My best guess. Just a thought.

I hope you are right.
--
Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then


lordpuffer
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reply to lordpuffer
I just called Kohler. The rep told me that she thinks that the toilet is not defective. However, she also said that I should not have to hold down the handle for a full flush.

She said that my old toilet probably used to be a 3 gallon flush and that the new one is a 1.28 gallon flush. Because it is only 1.28 gallons, any clogging in the system will affect the flush. She said to have someone snake the line.

However, the whole plumbing in this house was replaced in the Summer of 2012. There could still be a clog of course though.

She also said to make sure there is no slack in the handle chain. There is maybe a link or two of slack, and I'm going to try that first. Hopefully I can get it done this afternoon. Thanks for all of the responses.
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Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
I just just do a quickie for urine and hold it down for a full flush. How hard is that? Had it for years now. Never considered that there was a problem. Over the years it's saved my well pump and softener wear and tear.


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
reply to lordpuffer
You can likely hack it by extending the overflow tube. Use a piece of sink drain pipe with a slip adapter and increase the level of water in the tank
I used to have the same issue with my new toilet (American Standard Cadet 3), the hack fixed all issues.
The problem is that a condom filled with paste used in lab tests is not the same as a real poop. Poop takes more water to flush down and rinse the bowl.


lordpuffer
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A friend of a friend is a Plumber, and he is going to be kind enough to stop by and take a look at the toilet on Monday (he said he would do it for no charge, which is very nice of him). I will mention the hack and see what he says. I'll post again after he is finished. Thank you.
--
Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then


lordpuffer
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reply to lordpuffer
UPDATE: A plumber was nice enough to come over today (yes, on a Sunday at no charge.....But he is a friend of a friend).

He determined that the toilet is defective, so it's going back for another one of the same. Thanks again for all responses.
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Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then


Jack_in_VA
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said by lordpuffer:

UPDATE:
He determined that the toilet is defective, so it's going back for another one of the same. Thanks again for all responses.

For our information what was defective? It's hard to believe a whole toilet to be defective.

AnonEEMouse

join:2013-02-27
reply to lordpuffer
You know I had this exact problem with a Kohler toilet, the damn thing drove me bonkers. Mine was a little longer than your's, you had to hold it down for about 4 seconds to get a full flush and get entirely new water in the bowl. I replaced every seal on the toilet, all new guts, adjusted it till I was blue in the face and could never get it to flush right, at that point I gave up and called a plumber friend too - he told me the toilet was either faulty design/cast from the factory, or there was a crack letting air in somewhere around the bowl.

Well, I never could find any cracks so I'm guessing it's either a stupid water saver "feature" or just Kohlers design, I know one thing, that Kohler POS went right to the landfill and I replaced it with a American Standard power flush, I will never own a toilet where I have to set there for 5 seconds holding the handle watching my STUFF go down the toilet.


lordpuffer
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·CableOne
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

said by lordpuffer:

UPDATE:
He determined that the toilet is defective, so it's going back for another one of the same. Thanks again for all responses.

For our information what was defective? It's hard to believe a whole toilet to be defective.

He didn't exactly say. He just said that something was defective in the tank. I didn't push it, for he was doing me a big favor.
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Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then


lordpuffer
RIP lil
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Rio Rancho, NM
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reply to AnonEEMouse
I hope that doesn't happen to me, for I'm going to get the same toilet again.

Edit: Also, I wanted a black toilet, and it has to be a certain size for the bathroom is very small. It has to be chair height for me too. All other toilets were pretty expensive, too low or too big. I got this one at half price.
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Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then

Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
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reply to lordpuffer

Re: [Plumbing] Re: Is this a problem with a new Kohler Cimarron Toilet?

said by lordpuffer:

Doesn't this toilet work on a completely different technology than older toilets?

I had two American Standard Champion 4 toilets installed. I have to hold down the flush handle for a complete flush. The toilet flushed properly in the master bathroom. The toilet in the guest bathroom did not flush properly because the chain was set too long and the flush valve would not open completely. The plumber reset the chain and the toilet now flushes properly.

I asked the plumber why the Champion 4 was so difficult to clog and the Briggs builders model that was replaced was so easy to clog. He explained that there are two flush technologies. Hydrostatic flush like the Briggs and jet flush like the Champion 4. Hydrostatic flush toilets depend on the weight of the water flowing into the bowl and swirl action of the water entering the bowl to break up the waste and force it through the trap. If the waste does not break up sufficiently the toilet clogs up. In the case of the Briggs if I waited long enough and flush it bringing the water in the bowl to almost overflowing, eventually the bowl would spontaneously drain.

A jet flush toilet has an opening opposite the entrance to the trap at the bottom of the toilet. When the toilet is flushed water jets out of the opening opposite the trap entrance breaking up the waste and forcing the waste through and out the trap. That is why jet flush toilets are harder to clog.


lordpuffer
RIP lil
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Rio Rancho, NM
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Thanks for the explanation Mr Matt.

laserfan

join:2005-01-14
Texas
reply to Mr Matt
said by Mr Matt:

I had two American Standard Champion 4 toilets installed. I have to hold down the flush handle for a complete flush.

I got one of these Elevated units for our master bath and except that all of our other toilets are in like new condition I would replace those with this AS4 too. Yes, to have to hold-down the handle another half second takes some getting used to, but the "never clogs" aspect of it is worth learning this new trick. Instead of a hinged flapper, the chain lifts the seal straight-up, letting all the water rush down from the tank unimpeded i.e. all-at-once vs. the conventional flapper where water has to curl around the flapper hinge.

Anyway believe me I'm not one to get excited about toilets but for $200 at Lowe's on sale this was a great purchase.

robbin
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join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
said by laserfan:

Instead of a hinged flapper, the chain lifts the seal straight-up, letting all the water rush down from the tank more quickly i.e. all-at-once vs. the conventional flapper where water has to curl around the flapper hinge.

That's the way the Kohler works that lordpuffer See Profile has. It uses a piston instead of a flapper.

AnonEEMouse

join:2013-02-27
The Kohler Cimarron I had used a large flapper (bigger than a standard korky if I remember right), not a piston. In-fact, I believe it was the same toilet as linked in the OP but in white. While on the other hand the AS uses a piston.

I like the other poster really like the American Standard jet/power flush toilets, I prefer the chair height ones with the dual flush buttons on the tank lid, I don't have the hold the button for longer than 1 second and it has an insane amount of flushing power.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
The early Cimarrons use a special 3" flapper. The one the OP linked to uses a piston. We have both kinds. Sister has flappers, mom has a piston.

" Technology
Single-flush gravity uses the force of gravity and a precision-engineered tank, bowl, and trapway to create a strong siphon during flushing.
AquaPiston canister allows water to flow into the bowl from all sides (360 degrees), increasing the power and effectiveness of the flush.
Flush valve's 3: 2 ratio harnesses the natural force of gravity and optimizes flush performance.
Durable canister design has 90% less exposed seal material than a 3-inch flapper, for leak-free performance.
Light-touch canister flush requires a lower actuation force than a flapper."

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vPU9k0O ··· U9k0OOhM


The thing I like best about the Cimarron line that there are no tank bolts which go through into the tank. It uses a metal bracket which is bonded to the bottom of the tank instead. Two less places to leak. The AquaPiston is definitely better that the older ones with the flapper.


lordpuffer
RIP lil
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Rio Rancho, NM
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reply to lordpuffer

Re: [Plumbing] Is this a problem with a new Kohler Cimarron Toilet?

UPDATE: Replacement toilet ordered. It may take a couple of weeks to get it. I really hope that this one works properly.
--
Hillary In 2016 - Any Tea Left Will Have Rotted By Then


Cho Baka
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join:2000-11-23
there
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What brand/model did you order?