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goalieskates
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join:2004-09-12
land of big

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Re: online banking, etc.

said by planet:

question 1. Do you use your pc for banking purposes?
question 2. Do banking employees access accounts with potentially insecure computers?
question 3. If you use a debit card for ATM purposes only, no use other than an ATM, how likely could it be compromised?

1. Yes, but only for limited purposes like account transfers and checking balances. I used to do more like bill pay online, but stopped after a couple of payments "got lost" - it took an act of Congress and several weeks to get my bank to trace the transaction and prove I'd paid. It does happen, and any "convenience" is undone by the experience. You find out in a hurry that just because you see the money leave your account, it holds no water with the vendor. I went back to writing checks. It may be old fashioned, but it works.
2. yes
3. I use an ATM-only card. Debit cards have too many potential problems for me to feel comfortable using one. I'd rather use credit or cash.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

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No, it's no cash here. It was no coins forever seems like and then no cash. The banks here still require envelopes and filling out all the information on the envelope and the part you tear off as your "receipt"/reminder of what you did.

Where do you insert cash/checks? The same place where you insert the envelope? I just recently picked up a bunch of envelopes from one bank and it says in big letters DO NOT INSERT CASH. The bank where I have my checking account, I don't currently have any deposit envelopes so I can't check them and I suppose it is possible that since I have used deposit envelopes there that it has changed. I actually go inside a bank if I am making a deposit to a savings account and I always have my deposit book with me on the day I plan to access my savings account. Yes, banks still issue "old fashioned" savings account deposit books and folks are expected to use them as the safest thing.

However, t he bank where I don't have any current deposit envelopes, I use their ATMs frequently so if there is some way to deposit cash with/or without (this bank got really angry when I ignored the don't insert cash in envelope one time a number of years ago as they said it was for my protection that only checks were allowed to be deposited via ATM) an envelope I think I would have noticed a change in the ATMs themselves or a choice on screen asking if wanted to deposit cash. I hope that is never allowed here. That is DANGEROUS! It will just attract criminals at all hours for those of us who want to get cash or deposit a check or pay a credit card bill by check deposit. I'll be terrified to ever use an ATM if that is allowed here. As it is, I am only comfortable using my banks ATMs when the banks are open and the ATMs are at the banks. I feel most comfortable using my checking account bank's ATMs inside the branches of the bank at Safeway and KTA Super Stores (grocery). I rarely use that bank's ATMs in CVS as they are old machines and I don't trust them. I also rarely use my other bank's ATM inside Sears for the same reason. I only trust the ATMs physically attached to my banks and only when the banks are open.

The bank where I have my checking account was voted by Forbes as the BEST bank in the nation three years in a row recently so they must be doing something right.

Mike
Mod
join:2000-09-17
Pittsburgh, PA

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I do online banking on my Mac, on my iPhone technically as I link my accounts in with Mint.com

For Bitcoin I use Coinbase.

I really don't trust any other local computers except the ones I exclusively use.
nonymous (banned)
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

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I would limit cash into an atm but have done it many times for reasonable amounts. The new cash scanning ones are magical. Reasonable is ymmv.

therube
join:2004-11-11
Randallstown, MD

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1. yes, everything is done online.
2. i do not expect bank employee's or necessarily banks at all to be "secure".
3. i have no bank card nor bank debit card. only debit is a prepaid "rewards" card. & that is one that can act as either a "credit" card, or a debit card with a pin.

Cogitate
join:2014-01-01
US

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Use PC only, for all financial transactions since they became available.

Firefox on Linux with NoScript blocking everything except bare minimum for transactions.

Why worry about what the bank employees can do as you have no control over it.

If they didn't have access to accounts, how would they function in their jobs?

ATM card only. No debit card.

Depending on where you live, BOA ATM's will accept cash or checks for deposit and print a copy of the check on your receipt.

All this is free for me due to a direct deposit.

As others have posted, you can check account status at any time.

So can the NSA

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Metronet

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quote:
question 1. Do you use your pc for banking purposes?
Yes.
quote:
question 3. If you use a debit card for ATM purposes only, no use other than an ATM, how likely could it be compromised?
Find a new bank and or credit union and when you close accounts tell them why. I refuse any and all debit cards and have an ATM card.

EUS
Kill cancer
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join:2002-09-10
canada

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Yes I bank online pretty much exclusively.
My question; how does it matter what browser you use when the underlying OS in the majority of PCs is suspect?

Blackbird
Built for Speed
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join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Blackbird

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said by EUS:

... My question; how does it matter what browser you use when the underlying OS in the majority of PCs is suspect?

Insecurities compound. Using an insecure browser on top of an insecure OS carries greater chances of exploitation than using a secure browser on top of the same OS. It's all in the ultimate odds of stumbling upon an exploit that can successfully get at your data.

fuziwuzi
Not born yesterday
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join:2005-07-01
Palm Springs, CA
Hitron EN2251
Nest H2D

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I've used online banking and bill pay since about 1996. Now I'm with Wells Fargo and use their system on both my home PC (using Firefox) as well as their Android app for my phone and tablet. I can't imagine not having that access and ease-of-use anymore and it is very secure. I've not had any issues in all these years.

I also use my Wells Fargo Visa debit card for nearly everything. I carry very little cash. When I travel (I go through Tokyo and spend a lot of time in China each year) I just use my debit card in a local ATM to get cash. I don't have to worry about exchange rates and such, I get out enough cash to cover me for a while. I can also use it to pay for things in most stores and restaurants there and don't even have to pay a foreign exchange fee.

I'd never go back to the Luddite ways.

Kilroy
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join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

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1. Yes, I use my PC, and my phone, for online banking, and have for pretty much since it was available to me. The phone is used to make deposits of checks, since my bank doesn't have a local branch.

2. It depends on what you mean by insecure? The back end computers are still mainframe type access and they use an emulator to access them.

3. Just as likely as anything else, especially if you loose physical control of the card.

I worked for a bank, doing mainly IT work, for over 15 years.

I see online access making my account safer. I can see, in near real time, what is going on with my money. If something funny is happening with my account I'm going to know about it before I get my statement.

All of my payments are electronic. I only use my ATM/Debit card for ATM use and use a credit card, paid off monthly, when purchases are made with plastic. I carry cash to pay for lunch and incidentals. I don't write checks.
85160670 (banned)
"If U know neither the enemy nor yoursel
join:2013-09-17
Edmonton, AB

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Many ways go to ROM ...... my secure online banking, use only one machine to auth my MAC address to check with two factor AUTH !
I monitoring from time to time my own activity & my BANK call me "IF" more than 1K after short time bought another big items ..... & I think my Bank monitoring is a good protection too ! BTW, I check my router log files in the day I purchase online items, etc. This practices since decades with PIN encryption never fail { THX GOD } & we are here to learn from each other, the way we like to proceed

DownTheShore
Pray for Ukraine
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join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ

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said by Mele20:

No, it's no cash here. It was no coins forever seems like and then no cash. The banks here still require envelopes and filling out all the information on the envelope and the part you tear off as your "receipt"/reminder of what you did.

Where do you insert cash/checks? The same place where you insert the envelope? I just recently picked up a bunch of envelopes from one bank and it says in big letters DO NOT INSERT CASH. The bank where I have my checking account, I don't currently have any deposit envelopes so I can't check them and I suppose it is possible that since I have used deposit envelopes there that it has changed. I actually go inside a bank if I am making a deposit to a savings account and I always have my deposit book with me on the day I plan to access my savings account. Yes, banks still issue "old fashioned" savings account deposit books and folks are expected to use them as the safest thing.

However, t he bank where I don't have any current deposit envelopes, I use their ATMs frequently so if there is some way to deposit cash with/or without (this bank got really angry when I ignored the don't insert cash in envelope one time a number of years ago as they said it was for my protection that only checks were allowed to be deposited via ATM) an envelope I think I would have noticed a change in the ATMs themselves or a choice on screen asking if wanted to deposit cash. I hope that is never allowed here. That is DANGEROUS! It will just attract criminals at all hours for those of us who want to get cash or deposit a check or pay a credit card bill by check deposit. I'll be terrified to ever use an ATM if that is allowed here...

It's not dangerous at all. Bank ATMs are well-lit and have security cameras trained on them. A lot of times you need your ATM card to even enter the area with the ATM machine. They usually also have small mirrors attached so you can see if there is anyone behind you. Also, a lot of banks have drive-up ATMs which are usually right on the side of the bank building, so it's very hard for someone to sneak up on you that way - there's no room between the car and the wall to fit.

Bank ATMs in NJ allow the deposit of both cash and checks. For the ones that use the envelope system, you just annotate your cash and/or check totals (you can list the check totals separately). With my bank, annotating your name and date on the envelope is actually optional because everything is keyed, I suppose, to the card you are using for the deposit. You have the choice of whether or not you want a receipt printed up at the time.

A bank that I use allows direct deposit of cash and checks without an envelope at their bank ATMs. You insert the checks and they are scanned and visually appear on the screen with a button for click if their tally of the total amount agrees with your tally. You can get a printout of the actual check on your receipt if you want, or just a regular receipt, or have the receipt emailed to you, or choose not to get any paper receipt. What this allows is faster access to your cash due to quicker processing, because you don't have to wait for the envelope to be opened by bank personnel and the data verified manually. The ATM can scan the routing, account, check number and amount right at entry; I've never had it once misread the written amount on the check. It can also scan the actually money and probably verify it via the security strip embedded in it.

I don't know if any banks around here still use physical passbooks. I know that the banks I've used over the years have all done away with them.
BoulderHill1
join:2004-07-15
Montgomery, IL

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said by Mele20:

Where do you insert cash/checks?

The ATMs here from Chase bank do not have an envelope slot. There are no envelopes to use anyway so why have a slot for them.

There are two different places on the ATM for deposits. One is for cash and the other is for checks.

The cash slot is similar to those found on vending machines except that you can insert up to fifty bills at one time.

The procedure is to navigate the touch screen ATM menu to the deposit options and then choose cash or check deposit. When you choose cash it opens the little door to the cash slot and you insert the bills. It then counts them and rejects any bills that may be old (prior to 1997) or have other issues with them that prevent the scanner from properly identifying them.

When all is good then it makes the deposit to your account and prints you a receipt.

I don't know what it is like in Hawaii, but I don't find this to be DANGEROUS here in Chicagoland. Seems that there must be local laws against this in your area, or the local banks rules.

Actually thinking about it, it is safer than removing cash from the ATM, since when you make a deposit of cash at an ATM when you leave you have no cash on you to be robbed of. When you withdraw you become a target.
BoulderHill1

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said by Mele20:

To me, the only reason to use an ATM is to take cash out.

This is what I don't understand...

Why take cash out from an ATM? What is the need?

For me, since I can spend my money via the debit card EVERYWHERE, I have no need for cash.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

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MVM

For those of us who do not want/have debit cards.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

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said by BoulderHill1:

Why take cash out from an ATM? What is the need?

Well, the coffee club where I work ($10/month) doesn't really process plastic...

owlyn
MVM
join:2004-06-05
Newtown, PA

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Cash transactions cannot be traced back to you without video recording. Every debit card transaction leaves a history. May not matter to you. I personally don't care. Just sayin...
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

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said by BoulderHill1:

said by Mele20:

To me, the only reason to use an ATM is to take cash out.

This is what I don't understand...

Why take cash out from an ATM? What is the need?

For me, since I can spend my money via the debit card EVERYWHERE, I have no need for cash.

I take cash out at the beginning of the month to pay local bills and local credit cards. Checks cost a FORTUNE now so I hoard what I have and write checks usually just for medical co-pays since those tend to get messed up and I want proof I paid the co-pay. I also write a check for my landline since the phone company charges $2 to pay via their phone system and there is no longer a phone mart where I can go in and pay in cash.

I don't use cash for purchases. I use a cash back or mileage credit card.

I don't have a debit card and I don't allow my savings accounts or local credit card accounts to be tied by ATM or online to my checking account or savings accounts.

The word is here, from several financial institutions, that the days of using a credit card or debit card for everything is about to come to an end. As soon as one major retailer starts charging customers to use a credit card all will do so and then I will have to go back to writing checks and withdrawing cash frequently from my bank account as I will not use a debit card.

As for checking my bank account daily....what a major hassle! Logging in now is a major hassle so I do it once a month usually and it is actually faster and much easier to use the bank's phone system instead from a safe, corded landline.
markf
join:2008-01-24
Scarborough, ON

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Fascinating discussion. Highlights a very big general difference between Canadians and Americans. I've read about the lower use of debit cards, NFC cards, etc in the US, but I find the perspective here interesting.

1. I've used my PC (Windows XP through 8.1), tablets (mainly BlackBerry PlayBook), and phone (BlackBerry Torch 9810, BlackBerry Z10 and BlackBerry Q10) extensively for banking purposes.

A number of banks have photo cheque (check) deposit features. I'm annoyed that my bank hasn't made this available yet. I'm thinking of signing up for a free account just to have this feature available to me. The less I have to go to the bank, the better.

I have never had any issues with online banking. I've had a couple of transactions online go bad, not money stolen, but faulty products where they wouldn't give me my money back, but PayPal and my credit card company took care of those with minimal effort. The convenience of online shopping far outweighs the "risk" for me.

2. I don't really know this one. I would assume that the banks take security seriously though. As one poster said, as soon as a potential hole in their system is found (even if just a window facing the street), they will tend to fix those things.

3. This is the most interesting. I have a debit card, but rarely use it, not because I'm afraid of security, but because I pay per transaction after a set limit. I'd rather not pay the bank, so I use my credit card most of the time. If a place is debit only, I have no problem paying debit. Costco happens to be one of those debit only places. I rarely if ever carry cash and cash once its lost is gone too.

I think some of the more security conscious folk would freak out if they had "Interac Flash" or "Visa Paywave" cards in their pockets, but I have both and have no real concerns. At most if I lose the cards I'll be out about $50, but since that's all I carry, it's a lot easier to keep track of them than of wads of cash.

Are there scams and skimmers out there? Sure. But are there also people out there who will "bump" into you and somehow you find yourself missing cash? Yes there are, so there is no perfect system and to each his or her own way of doing things.

I personally would love to see my bank allow NFC payments through my phone (CIBC in Canada already allows customers on the Rogers network to pay using NFC in their phones).

Until this discussion I had never heard of ATM-only cards.

Krisnatharok
PC Builder, Gamer
Premium Member
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit

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said by Rojo31:

Tossing a quick 2 cents at your 3 questions:
1. Yes, but only on a Mac.

oh jeeze
DarkSithPro (banned)
join:2005-02-12
Tempe, AZ

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A lot of comments on only banking on Macintosh. I guess they feel Microsoft Corporation cannot provide them with a safe and secure Operating System, even if they are the only ones who use the OS and personally choose the security software that's on it. Sad, because this shows the distrust between security conscientious consumers and Microsoft.

DownTheShore
Pray for Ukraine
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join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ

1 recommendation

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I pay most of my regular monthly bills online - it's secure and I don't have to buy checks or pay for postage. I pay via a debit card that's tied to a specific checking account. I only put money into that account to cover the bills I'm paying or what I expect to spend when I go shopping. I don't earn any interest on the account, but the money isn't in there long enough to make it matter.

I don't normally check my account daily, but even if I did, it's no more of a hassle than logging into this site or any other. If it's a hassle at your bank, then it must have a very backward IT dept to have such a poorly designed online access website.

Charging customers to use their credit/debit cards isn't going to fly; if the banks in your state think that it will work, I think they are going to be rudely surprised. A couple of banks have already tried that in past years and the customer complaints and bad publicity forced them to cancel those plans.
Mele20
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Hilo, HI

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This is the first I have even heard of NFC cards. I had to Google it to learn about it.

"Convenience" of online shopping is just the opposite in my experience. It is generally nothing but one huge headache that takes up a lot more of your time than simply going in a real store and purchasing. I do it only when I REALLY REALLY need something I can't find in stores here.

Several banks here have the photo check deposit feature. Since I can't recall the last time I deposited a check, I don't care about the feature.

I have never heard of "debit only" places. You mean they won't take cash or credit card? I would not patronize such a stupid place.

Chase sent me a new credit card when the expiration date on mine was approaching. It was that god-awful RFID chip crap card -contactless, etc. I called them and said I wanted a real credit card not that dangerous chip shit. They said most folks still want magnetic stripe cards and they immediately sent me one. I have no interest in carrying a special kind of wallet to protect an RFID card. Nor do I wish liablity to be shifted to my shoulders. Only fools carry RFID cards in the USA and hopefully our consumer laws will remain strong and not allow banks to place all burden on the consumer as it is now in most nations.
Mele20

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The banks will not be charging customers to use credit cards. They are just predicting that soon the RETAILERS will pass on the charges(or a portion of them maybe based on the amount being charged to the card) they pay to MasterCard, Visa, Discover, etc to the consumer. Once the first retailer does it in a state where it has not been banned by the state and most states have no ban then every retailer will do it.

Don't you have to pay a monthly fee to the bank where you have the specific checking account you use to pay monthly bills? My checking account is free but only because it has direct deposit. Checks cost a great deal now (unless I am willing to move up to the next level of banking where there are perks like free checks but a horrible closing statement date) so I write very few and I only use one stamp a month to pay my landline bill.

I don't leave banking cookies or hardly any cookies on my computer so the bank doesn't recognize the computer and that means that to login they will call me with a code to put in and that is in addition to my password. They did away with recognizing your chosen picture and then answering a bunch of nosy questions when they did not recognize my computer which is never unless I forget to delete all the cookies after I visit. Chase has the same sort of system but theirs is very poorly designed if you have had them call you with the passcode. I usually have Chase send the passcode to my email but this last time I couldn't login in my email account because I have a new security app for Fx and it constantly changes my IP address and the email vendor was suspicious because of this and even whitelisting doesn't seem to work always. So, I had Chase call me and the passcode was read off very rapidly and no way to have it read a second time. I had to call Chase internet help to get logged in.
markf
join:2008-01-24
Scarborough, ON

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said by Mele20:

I have never heard of "debit only" places. You mean they won't take cash or credit card? I would not patronize such a stupid place.

Sorry, I do mean cash or debit (won't accept credit).

The discussion that was going on in another forum was basically that NFC is a limited feature due to the limited acceptance in the US. Apple doesn't include it on their phones (I'm hoping they eventually do, but I doubt it). I think that may help it become more accepted, but as it is now, it is quite limited in use.

Many places in Canada, especially as they replace their debit/credit machines also have the tap NFC/RFID included.

I use it a lot at the gas station and the grocery store and any where that I notice they have it. Quick, easy, the card never leaves your hand.

On my phone, I can load Tim Horton's (coffee shop) cards and use the app to tap to pay via NFC which is very convenient too.

Choice is certainly a good thing, and for some I know that cash is the only tried and true method.

Based on what goes on here in Canada, I think I'd be shocked if anyone I knew, whether through work or friends, didn't have a debit card. Any job I've ever had paid through direct deposit which means having a bank account to go with it and a debit card to access that cash.

Interac is very prevalent around here, including a huge Christmas advertising push with the message of 0% interest by using debit cards (vs credit). It's a widely accepted form of payment and widely used by Canadians.

Unless you steal my card and PIN, you're not getting my cash. There are lower odds of that than getting clubbed outside the bank as I go to withdraw the cash (or losing some cash) I would need each week. I change my PIN every so often, and keep track of my cards, so I don't worry much about it. That's my take on it, but as I said, to each his or her own.

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
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join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

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said by Mele20:

Don't you have to pay a monthly fee to the bank where you have the specific checking account you use to pay monthly bills?

Does Free Checking not exist in Hawaii? All of the large banks have free checking if you meet certain criteria (student, direct deposits, or minimum balance usually).

You should keep in mind, your little island is different from the mainland. Here we have free checking, and cash deposits at ATMs that have dedicated slots for cash. Amazing, I know. Did you know we also have snow? This frozen stuff that falls from the sky.. sucks to travel on, but can be pretty.
BoulderHill1
join:2004-07-15
Montgomery, IL

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said by Mele20:

I take cash out at the beginning of the month to pay local bills and local credit cards. Checks cost a FORTUNE now so I hoard what I have and write checks usually just for medical co-pays since those tend to get messed up and I want proof I paid the co-pay.

I pay all my local bills and such with my debit card. I also pay any medical copays with debit card, it provides proof I paid. CHECKS?! I haven't written one in over ten years. Why would I? I don't even have any blank checks if I wanted too.
said by Mele20:

As for checking my bank account daily....what a major hassle! Logging in now is a major hassle

I don't understand what makes this a hassle. For me it is a simple process, enter a username and password. Same as logging in to this site.

I find the things you have said to be interesting. I don't doubt your word, it is just that your statements come from a perspective that is diametrically opposed to what I know. Perhaps some of it is regional and some is personal preferences but either way it is very different.
said by Mele20:

The word is here, from several financial institutions, that the days of using a credit card or debit card for everything is about to come to an end. As soon as one major retailer starts charging customers to use a credit card all will do so and then I will have to go back to writing checks and withdrawing cash frequently from my bank account as I will not use a debit card.

I do agree with this. I think a time is coming when the consumer will be paying for card fees as retailers pass the costs on to them. I will adjust my methods if and when this happens as I will not pay a fee to spend my money.
BoulderHill1

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said by Mele20:

Don't you have to pay a monthly fee to the bank where you have the specific checking account you use to pay monthly bills?

I do not. I think if banks charged for online bill pay, people would not sign up to use it. Seems counter productive to the bank to do so. I pay all my bills with online service from the bank. Even the local garbage man.
said by Mele20:

I don't leave banking cookies or hardly any cookies on my computer so the bank doesn't recognize the computer and that means that to login they will call me with a code to put in and that is in addition to my password

Explains why it is such a hassle to log in for you. To each his own but it seems a little paranoid to me.
said by Mele20:

Checks cost a great deal now

Although I don't write any checks, they do not cost me anything if I did. they would be processed just the same as a debit card purchase would be.
said by Mele20:

Chase sent me a new credit card when the expiration date on mine was approaching. It was that god-awful RFID chip crap card -contactless, etc. I called them and said I wanted a real credit card not that dangerous chip shit. They said most folks still want magnetic stripe cards and they immediately sent me one. I have no interest in carrying a special kind of wallet to protect an RFID card. Nor do I wish liablity to be shifted to my shoulders. Only fools carry RFID cards in the USA

My Chase card has the RFID chip in it and I LOVE it. Many of my debit card purchases are done this way instead of swiping the mag strip. Keeps the mag strip from wearing out as quick. Since I make so many purchases with my card I would wear out two to three a year. Now with the RFID the card lasts a lot longer. I'm not really concerned about any security issues with my methods as the benefits far outweigh the remotely possible breaches that could happen. Carrying cash bothers and concerns me considerably more.

I also carry two RFID cards in my wallet. I've found that this makes it basically impossible for either card to be read. I discovered this on accident. I typically would just carry my debit card in my wallet. When making a RFID purchase I wouldn't even take the card out of my wallet. I would just wave by entire wallet at the reader/scanner.

However on one occasion I had also placed a credit card that had RFID in it in my wallet. When I was making a purchase I pulled my wallet out as per usual to wave at the reader and it wouldn't work. I waved and waved but it wouldn't accept my card. I finally pulled the DEBIT card out of the wallet and tried it and it worked perfectly fine. It then finally hit me that my CREDIT card also had RFID in it. In the following days I experimented with my purchases and what I realized is that when the two cards are next to each other, it confuses the card reader and then neither card is accepted.

So I now leave an expired RFID card in my wallet to serve as deterent to anyone that might get close enough to my butt with some rogue RFID scanner.

And just for reference, my account is with Chase bank. I have what they call "Chase Checking". It is just a regular checking account. It does have a monthly fee that is waived if you have direct deposit (I do not) maintain a certain balance (which I do not) or make a minimum of five debit card purchases per month. (I make several hundred of these each month).
scelli (banned)
Four More Years!
join:1999-08-07
FLOT/FEBA

scelli (banned)

Member

said by BoulderHill1:

And just for reference, my account is with Chase bank. I have what they call "Chase Checking". It is just a regular checking account. It does have a monthly fee that is waived if you have direct deposit (I do not) maintain a certain balance (which I do not) or make a minimum of five debit card purchases per month. (I make several hundred of these each month).

Just FYI: Chase also has a program for active duty/reserve personnel in the US armed forces as well as retired service-members and veterans. They waive a number of monthly fees as well as providing some other special bennies and it's worth investigating if you fall into any of these categories,