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Mele20
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join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

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Re: online banking, etc.

My bank and the others here (although not the credit unions) charge to use bill pay. That is a horrible way to pay bills anyway as frequently the bank mailed check doesn't arrive in time. It is far better to do the prudent thing and pay all local bills in person and credit card bills by a corded landline and that is free and you have full control over when the bill is paid which you don't with bank bill pay systems (even though they may claim you do).

I meant the cost of checks when you purchase them. The fee is very high now for a small number of checks. A credit card costs nothing. A credit card has safeguards that NO debit card has. It is just crazy to use a debit card instead of a credit card. Pay it in full each month and get miles or cash rewards.

I have never had a mag stripe wear out and I use my cards all the time. There is FAR MORE to the reasons for not using debit cards than RFID chip in some. You should educate yourself. NEVER EVER USE ANY DEBIT CARD. Use credit cards and then pay them in full each month. That is what smart people do. You are being snookered and that is exactly what the banks in the USA hope happens to enough naive, ignorant about credit vs debit cards folks so they can then make credit cards very expensive to use and force everyone to debit only cards which is what they want as then they really have you. It will be just as bad as what goes on in other nations where we get ridiculed (instead of admired) because we have a much superior system for the protection of our citizens. People of other nations are not aware of the protections we have and will lose if enough people decide debit cards are gods. Write a check (even with the high cost of purchasing checks at many banks now) rather than use a debit card.

GuruGuy
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join:2002-12-16
Atlanta, GA

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I have never in over ten years of using it, had a an online billpay payment get to a payee late, lost, etc. Not once. The cost of checks purchased through a bank is on average, $20. You can also get them through Costco or other check printing places for around $12.

There sure is alot of paranoia in this thread!

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
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join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

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said by Mele20:

That is a horrible way to pay bills anyway as frequently the bank mailed check doesn't arrive in time

Possibly true in Hawaii. Not so much here.
Mele20
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join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

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I'm referring to the bank bill pay payments that are mailed out through the USPS. Those can easily be late or get lost. The ones that carry heavy penalties if late, lost, etc must be paid by check by mail or in person. Everything else is credit cards and those I pay through my landline corded phone. So, I don't see the point in bank bill pay systems that cannot guarantee that the important ones will reach their destination at the designated time.

There is no Costco here. I think $20 for generic (ugly) checks - only 150 - is way, way too much. They used to be $5 for generic 300 checks. The credit unions charge nothing for checks nor do banks if you go up a level or more but then when I did that one of the "perks" was to change my 35 year old closing date for the bank statement. The new date was horrible and the only way to get the one I'd had all these years was to go back to "lower" non- perks levels and it took over six months to get it straightened out. You can't not use your banks checks anyway as that makes you liable if someone alters your check. The bank ones, I was told, are so expensive because they cannot be tampered with. I'm sure the Costco one could be and I was told I was required to get them from the bank unless I didn't mind having liability. If I was willing to go up a level or more for my account (assuming I am eligible which I am for level 1 and maybe 2 but not 3) then checks are free but I would have to put up with a horrible, worthless closing date. The bank only has two closing dates and the one that gets your mailed statement to you around the end of the month is the lower level one where you are charged a high price for only 150 generic (really ugly) checks.

goalieskates
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join:2004-09-12
land of big

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said by GuruGuy:

I have never in over ten years of using it, had a an online billpay payment get to a payee late, lost, etc. Not once. The cost of checks purchased through a bank is on average, $20. You can also get them through Costco or other check printing places for around $12.

There sure is alot of paranoia in this thread!

Then count yourself lucky. It's not paranoia when it's happened to you. And when it does, that nifty transaction number you see on the screen doesn't help you with the vendor in question - the bank has to intervene on your behalf.

As for late payments, I experimented with our utility bill. It actually took longer for an online payment to show up on our utility account than it took a check that was mailed, even though the bank showed the transaction leaving our account a few days earlier (as we expected). It's not just a question of the bank (I think most banks have payments down pretty well), but of the receiving vendor. That seems to vary.

Kilroy
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join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

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said by Mele20:

The ones that carry heavy penalties if late, lost, etc must be paid by check by mail or in person.

Provided you paid online with plenty of time for the check to get to the place it needs to be the bank will normally cover any fees. If not, might be time to find a new bank or possibly a credit union. Very few of my payments required a check, most went electronically.

I can't talk about checks because I don't use them. I use bill pay because it doesn't cost me extra, I don't have to buy checks, and don't have to pay postage.

nwrickert
Mod
join:2004-09-04
Geneva, IL

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said by GuruGuy:

I have never in over ten years of using it, had a an online billpay payment get to a payee late, lost, etc.

I have had that happen once. The bank screwed up. But they also took care of resolving it.
BoulderHill1
join:2004-07-15
Montgomery, IL

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said by Mele20:

My bank and the others here (although not the credit unions) charge to use bill pay. That is a horrible way to pay bills

I agree that if the institution is charging for bill pay services it is horrible. However mine does not and until now I haven't heard of any that did. Another example of how diametrically opposite your perspective is.
said by Mele20:

pay all local bills in person and credit card bills by a corded landline and that is free

Not sure why you keep referencing a corded land line. You seem to think it is somehow more secure than other phones. Not really. Anyway, any pay by phone methods I have seen incur a service charge to do so. EX- Pay my ATT bill by phone? costs me 2 bucks to do so. Same if I went into an ATT store and pay in person, they charge you for the privelige to pay them. Another example of the opposite ness.
said by Mele20:

You should educate yourself. NEVER EVER USE ANY DEBIT CARD

I am quite educated on these matters. I thoroughly understand the risks and the arguments on each side of the issues. After considering these points I feel quite secure in my methods. I love my debit card!!! Nothing has kept me more disciplined in my spending habits, given me a readily available, all in one place, concise report of how and where I spend my money, and allows me to be secure in that I do not ever have to carry cash.

Again this is polar opposite to your perspective and what goes on in Hawaii. I'm beginning to think Hawaii is like bizarre-o land like in superman where everything is opposite to what you know to be true.
said by Mele20:

Write a check (even with the high cost of purchasing checks at many banks now) rather than use a debit card.

What good is writing a check. Hardly anyplace takes them. Except Hawaii.
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said by Mele20:

A credit card costs nothing. A credit card has safeguards that NO debit card has.

More from bizarre-o land.
My debit card has safeguards. Very similar to the ones that credit cards have in that I am not responsible for fraudulent spending done with the card. Granted I may be temporarily out of funds since the debit card comes straight from my account rather than going against the credit line of a credit card. However the safeguard is that the bank will replace any amounts lost due to fraud.
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said by Mele20:

You can't not use your banks checks anyway as that makes you liable if someone alters your check. The bank ones, I was told, are so expensive because they cannot be tampered with.

This is just pure foolishness. Checks printed by third party companies are the same as those you get from the bank in terms of tampering. I think you have been snookered.

CylonRed
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join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

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Hmmmm. Tons of places take checks still. I will go out on a limb and say no place I do business will refuse a check unless they always refused checks (one local pizza place never took checks).

DownTheShore
Pray for Ukraine
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join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ

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My bank doesn't charge for billpay and I use their service for one regular monthly payment that I can't pay online. Using regular mail, two monthly checks in a row were never received by the company they were sent to (mailed from PO boxes in different towns). I switched to billpay, authorize the payment well in advance of its due date and haven't had a problem since.
markf
join:2008-01-24
Scarborough, ON

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said by CylonRed:

Tons of places take checks still. I will go out on a limb and say no place I do business will refuse a check.

Around here no retailer I know takes cheques. The only time I use cheques are to pay my HVAC guy and school field trips/pre-ordered lunches and such).

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

CylonRed

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Offices still take them - lots of Drs offices and bill that can be paid by mail with a check along with retailers around here.
CylonRed

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said by BoulderHill1:

said by Mele20:

A credit card costs nothing. A credit card has safeguards that NO debit card has.

More from bizarre-o land.
My debit card has safeguards. Very similar to the ones that credit cards have in that I am not responsible for fraudulent spending done with the card. Granted I may be temporarily out of funds since the debit card comes straight from my account rather than going against the credit line of a credit card. However the safeguard is that the bank will replace any amounts lost due to fraud.

The protections are not quite the same. It can take a month to recoup money from the bank and they have zero responsibility to pay all late fees from any bounced checks that might go thru before the fraud is noticed. Some debit cards you have to tell the bank within 3 days or else.

Folks who has paid with a debit at Kings Island last year know all too well. Not dome by fraud but by mistake from they payment folks who double and tripled charged for purchases.
markf
join:2008-01-24
Scarborough, ON

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Wouldn't have even though of utility companies, I don't know if I've ever written one for any bills. They do take them.

Fortunately I've also never had to pay a doctor by cheque, up here we pay with plastic (Health Cards).
Mele20
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join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

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said by BoulderHill1:

said by Mele20:

You can't not use your banks checks anyway as that makes you liable if someone alters your check. The bank ones, I was told, are so expensive because they cannot be tampered with.

This is just pure foolishness. Checks printed by third party companies are the same as those you get from the bank in terms of tampering. I think you have been snookered.

You don't bank at the bank declared by Forbes to be the best bank in America three years in a row. The bank guarantees the checks from the company they use as the company guarantees them. Besides, who would be stupid enough to use some company they found on the internet or K-Mart, etc? All that personal information given to some obscure company or even if not obscure still vulnerable to being hacked, etc.
Mele20

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You are in Canada aren't you? Yes, Canada, England, other European nations are presently phasing out, or have already phased out checks, but not the USA. We have very few chip cards here and that's all you have with the loss of protection that comes with your system. One thing the USA Congress has continued to do right is protect the rights of non chip credit card holders (and the rights of citizens to write checks and not own credit cards or to do both). I just got an offer for a brand new just being introduced mileage card that I was interested in until I saw it said it comes with a chip (as well as mag stripe) so you can use it in Europe when you redeem your miles. I have to call and ask if they will send a mag stripe only instead. No way would I get this card, which has great introductory perks and continuing perks (no charge for first bag) unless I can get a non chip one or I could remove the chip but it is not always easy to tell where to cut and being a new card for Hawaiian Airlines customers ony not too likely that someone will have uploaded a youtube video to show where to cut out the chip.

I see folks writing checks in the grocery stores frequently. We have co-pays (along with monthly premiums) for doctors visits and I have only seen one physician ever who takes credit cards. So, co-pays need to be done by check. I see hardly anyone using cash at a doctor's office as a check is much better proof that you actually paid it. Macy's accepts checks including travelers checks which I prefer when I travel. I'd be stunned if when I finally go in Target again if they refused a check!

What do renters do in Canada? Over 50% of Hawaii citizens rent and I have never heard of being able to pay rent via a debit or credit card. It's cash or check and no electronic automatic transfer here although I have read of a few very large rental complexes on the Mainland having a setup where the tenants can do automatic electronic transfer.
Mele20

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said by sivran:

[Here we have free checking, and cash deposits at ATMs that have dedicated slots for cash. Amazing, I know. Did you know we also have snow?

We have snow on my island. You do need a 4 wheel drive to get to it (unless you know someone who has made a big haul down the mountain with it and invites you to a snowball fight in their front yard).

I used the ATM at the main branch of my bank today and looked to see if there was some slot for entering cash. I saw some slots I didn't know what they were for ....the machine was new since the last time I withdrew cash from there. I decided to act as though I was going to make a deposit and it asked for the envelope and gave no other option and reminded me that cash is NOT allowed to be deposited.

So when I was in Safeway, just as the bank branch there was closing, I checked their machine and then asked and the teller had not even heard of ATMs that allow for cash non-envelope deposits. She suggested you guys were just kidding about such a thing.

Cogitate
join:2014-01-01
US

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People, heed my screen name.

The bizarro world of volcanic rock in the middle of the Pacific is just that.

I have been using cash and check input ATM's for ten years.

There is an input slot for the cash and checks.

Simply Google the subject at hand to confirm.
Cogitate

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Left slot for checks, right slot for cash.

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
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join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

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Well then I should remind you that your little island chain is not the same as the contiguous 48. For one thing, we've had cash and no-envelope deposits for years. I find it strange Hawaii does not. It's very convenient. I no longer have to worry about deposit slips.

Oh, and your bank's vulnerable to hacking, too.

Also I had a RFID debit card from Chase once. After removing the chip, the damn thing no longer worked in their ATMs. I also no longer have an account with Chase.

antdude
Matrix Ant
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join:2001-03-25
US

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Others and I still don't do online banking.

Another question: How do you feel about the smaller banks and their online services? Do you feel less safer than the big ones (e.g., Bank of America)?
Mele20
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join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

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I didn't say my bank was invulnerable to hacking. ??

I made Chase send me a normal stripe card not long ago. But I would not be using a Chase credit card in their ATMs as there are no Chase ATMs in Hawaii. I've read that you can use Chase credit cards at merchants (and certainly online) sans the RFID chip.

Yes, Hawaii is Hawaii. It's not the Mainland and most of us who moved here and stayed did so for this very reason (plus, it doesn't get cold here). But something like this does surprise me. The second largest bank in Hawaii is part of the largest bank in Europe so you'd think they might have introduced something like this....unless is this cash insert with no envelopes unique to the USA? and Bank of America? ( I hate that bank). Do all the local banks on the Mainland have this for their ATMs? Or is it just gigantic banks like BOA or Chase? Do your ATMs speak several languages?
Millenium
join:2013-10-30

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said by planet:

Do you use your pc for banking purposes?

I used to do all my banking and bill paying on line, but don't anymore. It actually just became a hassle where I was going online everyday to insure balances were where they needed to be so direct debits cleared when they came through every month.
said by planet:

Do banking employees access accounts with potentially insecure computers?

I suppose so, but they are logging in with their credentials rather than yours. And if their compromise is sophisticated enough to enable someone to steal money from your account then it wont matter if your account is on line or not.
said by planet:

If you use a debit card for ATM purposes only, no use other than an ATM, how likely could it be compromised? (I assume the only vector for compromise would be at the ATM machine, a skimmer perhaps which would compromise any type of card).

I keep a checking/debit card account at a bank separate from my savings and keep limited funds in it to limit exposure. I don't use the checks and use the debit card only where I have no other option, my Netflix subscription for instance.

My car insurance and my water are billed semi annually, the rest of my bills I pay annually. And I get money orders when I pay them. For instance, I just signed up with Time Warner for internet. I sent them a money order for 12 months of service. When the credit runs out on my gas and electric bills I will send them each money orders large enough to cover another year's service. There are only 6 months in the year that I have to bother with paying any bills at all and I limit exposure of my account numbers by using money orders. Because lets face it, whether malicious or by error, all any person or company needs is your account number to take funds that shouldn't be taken.

Two birds with one stone. Simplicity in bill paying and budgeting. And limited exposure to theft and fraud via my banking and card numbers.

Cogitate
join:2014-01-01
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The hatred is strong today, for my bank, BOA.

DocDrew
How can I help?
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said by Mele20:

Do all the local banks on the Mainland have this for their ATMs? Or is it just gigantic banks like BOA or Chase?

Google "envelope free atm"

fuziwuzi
Not born yesterday
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Palm Springs, CA
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said by Mele20:

The word is here, from several financial institutions, that the days of using a credit card or debit card for everything is about to come to an end.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that's the funniest thing I've heard in a long while. Sorry, guy, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. If anything, the days of cash and physical checks are numbered. What MIGHT happen is a device like your cellphone with an NFC chip might replace your credit/debit card.

I've worked in banks as an IT guy. The technology is secure. I don't even have to go to the bank to deposit a check if one is given to me. I just use my phone to snap a picture of the check and it is deposited into my account. Should I do want to use my bank's ATM machines, they not only accept cash and checks without any envelope, they also dispense USPS stamps (yay for Forever stamps!). There is no separate slot for cash, just put up to 50 bills or checks into the slot, it takes them in, scans them, and displays what it has detected as the denominations and amounts for your confirmation.

The Bill Pay system is free with the checking account. The vast majority of bills are paid via electronic means, there is no physical check printed or mailed, so the payments are credited to my payees the day I indicate. I've never had an issue with a late payment in all these years.

My Wells Fargo debit card is good in ATM machines and stores all over China, too.

It is 2014, not 1914. Get used to technology, it isn't going away and we're not going backwards.

cableties
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1. Yes. But I boot to a OS on a Key with Firefox and direct bookmark to login. Never save the cookies. And the key I lockup. I doubt anyone is running a sniffer but then they'd have to be on my LAN.

2. Absolutely. Have you been in a bank/credit union lately??? I was at one of my branches and there are PCs out in the open (open desks) that staff will sit at with you.
The offices (locations vary) had glass walls so you could see staff doing entry. Even the gal that was helping me, had asked for her supervisor to assist with something and I watched her type in her "very short" password for some admin feature. Even the PCs had MAC addresses on the outside (spoof or more!).

3. My CU (see above for credibility) told me this after I cancelled debit card when Target issue happened: Use debit at "our" ATM only. Use the Visa feature for all else. Don't put pin in, just charge it.

I wasn't too keen on debit/visa as that makes it a Check Card. But apparently they cover any "illicit charges". I don't feel good that my checking is tied to the visa part.

I want to see better security at the BANK end, not making me culpable. I find it ridiculous I can't have a strong password (there are still 15 character/symbol limits). And that ATMs shouldn't be out in the street or at some bar, or area that is deemed unsafe. (Heck, have polarized glass on the outside so no one can see LCD displays.
Lastly, web merchants all must offer "guest" checkout. No password or information to store.

Kilroy
MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

Kilroy

MVM

said by cableties:

Use debit at "our" ATM only. Use the Visa feature for all else. Don't put pin in, just charge it.

That is because it costs them more in transaction fees. I was working for a bank when they starting making the ATM cards into debit cards. They ran an internal promotion, employees only, that every time you used your card as a debit card you got an entry into a drawing. That was when I found out it cost the bank more if you used it with your PIN.

Don't ever think that a business has your best interests in mind. They are all about the bottom line. How they can deliver less and charge more.