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EGeezer
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join:2002-08-04
Midwest

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Re: online banking, etc.

I don't do online banking.

I do use brokerage web sites and CC sites to monitor activity, but none of those login credentials allow online transactions.

Regularly reviewing CC transaction information and brokerage account balances is a good security precaution.
Millenium
join:2013-10-30

Millenium

Member

You may already be aware, but the clock on getting fraudulent charges reversed doesn't start until you become aware of it. So say someone dings your account on January 15th, but you don't see it until you get your statement on February 8th. You have 30 days from the 8th to inform the card company to avoid liability, rather than 30 days from January 15th.

With my debit card it's much shorter, just 48 hours. But still 48 hours from when I get my statement. Not 48 hours from the date the fraud occurred.

Just saying you don't necessarily need to be checking in on line if you didn't want to.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to fuziwuzi

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You misunderstood. I meant that consumers will not put up with being charged by merchants to use a credit card nor are many stupid enough to move to using debt cards with far less protection. The financial institutions here simply are warning consumers that retailers may start charging customers to use credit cards in their establishments. Hawaii is not yet one of the minority of states that forbids this so the worry is this will start happening this year. And it IS going backwards for consumers if the European pin and chip system takes over in the USA. The reason to start writing checks again is not because someone wishes to go back to 1914. You need to do some research if you don't understand why many of us refuse to have debit cards and will go back, if forced, to writing checks and using cash if we cannot use our credit cards without being slammed with a fee from the merchant for using one.

owlyn
MVM
join:2004-06-05
Newtown, PA
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owlyn

MVM

said by Mele20:

You misunderstood. I meant that consumers will not put up with being charged by merchants to use a credit card nor are many stupid enough to move to using debt cards with far less protection. The financial institutions here simply are warning consumers that retailers may start charging customers to use credit cards in their establishments. Hawaii is not yet one of the minority of states that forbids this so the worry is this will start happening this year. And it IS going backwards for consumers if the European pin and chip system takes over in the USA. The reason to start writing checks again is not because someone wishes to go back to 1914. You need to do some research if you don't understand why many of us refuse to have debit cards and will go back, if forced, to writing checks and using cash if we cannot use our credit cards without being slammed with a fee from the merchant for using one.

Checks are not really very safe these days. Your ABA and checking account number are on them, and usually, your name and address, and maybe even a phone number. I write as few checks as possible. Three each year for taxes, maybe one or two for a special occasion present, and any local repairmen who don't take credit cards. If I write 10 checks in a year, it's a lot.

ATMs at my bank now take checks without envelopes. As others have mentioned, it reads the check, figures out what is on it, and displays the total for your confirmation. It even offers to print a copy on your receipt. Very cool. I think it may take cash, too, but I don't deposit cash, so I haven't looked.

BTW, almost all banks (except the very small local banks) do not pass checks on for processing. They are scanned and imaged, and placed in an electronic file called an Image Cash Letter (ICL), along with the account numbers and amounts of each check.. This file is sent to the issuer's bank for processing against the issuer's account. Basically, there is no physical paper exchanged between banks (again, except those too small to have joined in).

The same is true for many bill payments. For example, Comcast outsources its bill payment processing, and the processing company uses the ICL process described above. The company I work for does the same thing.

Kilroy
MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

Kilroy to Mele20

MVM

to Mele20
said by Mele20:

I meant that consumers will not put up with being charged by merchants to use a credit card nor are many stupid enough to move to using debt cards with far less protection.

I agree. I will pay more for gas at a station that doesn't charge me more to use a credit card. If merchants start charging to use a credit card, credit card use will go down. The question will start to become do you want the sale or the fee.

I adjust my payment method on what is better for me. Paying with a credit card is an interest free loan, with benefits. Pay the bill in full when it is due, get my rewards points, extended warranty, purchase protection, or whatever other benefits you get with your card. There are a lot of things I pay with my credit card over my bank account because it is a better deal for me.

fuziwuzi
Not born yesterday
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Palm Springs, CA
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The pin/chip system is far more secure than our magstripe cards. Checks are an anachronism that, thankfully, is going away. I wish banks would simply start charging people who continue to use them. My debit card has all the same protections that a credit card has, and even includes the same reward points and is accepted wherever the Visa logo is displayed. I've never been charged an extra fee for using it. BTW, I travel through Hawaii at least once a year, I've used my debit card there with no problem. No problem in Japan, no problem in China, no problem in Taiwan, no problem in Europe.

DownTheShore
Pray for Ukraine
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Beautiful NJ

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There is an underlying assumption here that everyone can get a credit card. Not all of us have the sufficient credit score number to get one, for one reason or another. And a secured credit card presupposes that you have enough money upfront to establish one. Again, not possible for all of us.

Not all of us can pay a credit card bill in full each and every month, and a line of credit lends itself to overspending. That's why a debit card makes more sense; you can only spend what's available in the account.

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
Premium Member
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI

1 recommendation

Snowy to fuziwuzi

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to fuziwuzi
said by fuziwuzi:

BTW, I travel through Hawaii at least once a year, I've used my debit card there with no problem. No problem in Japan, no problem in China, no problem in Taiwan, no problem in Europe.

That's the tradeoff between convenience & security.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

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to fuziwuzi
said by fuziwuzi:

The pin/chip system is far more secure than our magstripe cards. Checks are an anachronism that, thankfully, is going away. I wish banks would simply start charging people who continue to use them. My debit card has all the same protections that a credit card has, and even includes the same reward points and is accepted wherever the Visa logo is displayed. I've never been charged an extra fee for using it. BTW, I travel through Hawaii at least once a year, I've used my debit card there with no problem. No problem in Japan, no problem in China, no problem in Taiwan, no problem in Europe.

I repeat that you should educate yourself on the consumer laws of the USA regarding credit cards vs debit cards instead of accepting lies you have been told by banks and ignorant friends. You can do a search in this forum going back many years and you will find a number of threads on this issue. I am not going to do the research for you. I've done it many times in the past for people like you and I am tired of doing it. You can find out for yourself now by investigating or you can find out the hard way later.

As for checks being an anachronism, I repeat, please explain to me how folks who rent are supposed to pay the rent each month if they cannot write a check or are penalized for doing so? Renters are second class citizens that you think should be punished because they rent? Geeez. Also, explain to me how folks are supposed to make their co-payments to the doctors, out patient surgery, getting a simple x-ray or ultrasound where co-pays to the facility and the physician reading the x-ray are required at the time of the visit, etc where usually ONLY CHECKS are accepted? Everyone is to be penalized because the medical system (with the exception of specialists that make their money mostly off of cosmetic, non-insurance covered procedures) rarely accepts credit cards or debit cards? Geez....the medical system is just now getting around to using computers for patient records (with great potential for horrible disasters especially in doctors offices where the physicians are not young and did not grow up on computers). I see older doctor's offices here trying to use regular, non-encrypted email for communication with patients which violates HIPPA but they don't get that and their offices are a minefield of potential disasters regarding patient's privacy because the switch over, especially for those in private practice who are older, is very difficult (and the potential for security abuses is enormous).

Anyhow, yes, eventually checks will probably disappear, but naive youngsters (and others who wish to appear young and hip) who have no real grasp of the situation but believe they are know-it-alls just display their ignorance when they make statements like yours. This is NOT Canada. We do not have a Canadian medical system in the USA and it will be a slow process before checks disappear. The banks could speed up the process like with monthly rental checks so the renter could do an electronic deposit with no fee attached for the renter or the owner or management company renting the domicile but the banks don't want to do that. Just as the banks fought tooth and nail to be allowed to continue charging a high fee to any credit card holder who wished to pay their bill over the phone using direct, electronic debt from their checking account. It took Congress to stop that as the banks were really making out on those fees.

You really don't understand at all if you think your comment about being able to use a debit card in Hawaii or China has anything to do with the issue of credit card vs debit card and which should people go with.
markf
join:2008-01-24
Scarborough, ON

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Member

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I'm not sure what more protection we need than to have the card and PIN to use the card. If you don't have my PIN, my card isn't going to be useful for long (most lock out the RFID tap function after $50 or $100 without the PIN being used again).

I can guarantee you that if I were to walk into a grocery story and offer a cheque, there's no way I'd find anywhere around here that would take it.

In terms of renters, I'm actually a landlord as well. I have a few guys who insist on paying by cash (which is my least preferred method) a couple pay post-dated cheque and a couple pay through Interac e-transfers (my preferred method).

With e-Transfers, which usually cost $1 to send, I have offered to absorb that cost through a rebate if they pay on time for the length of their lease. So far so good, so they'll get their money from me. It means I don't have to hassle with people not being around when I'm available to pick up rent (as happens with people who pay cash), and the money is in my account instantly.

From the dozens and dozens of e-Transfers that I've sent and received, there have never been any issues with any of them.
BoulderHill1
join:2004-07-15
Montgomery, IL

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BoulderHill1 to Mele20

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to Mele20
said by Mele20:

I repeat, please explain to me how folks who rent are supposed to pay the rent each month if they cannot write a check or are penalized for doing so? ... Also, explain to me how folks are supposed to make their co-payments to the doctors, out patient surgery, getting a simple x-ray or ultrasound where co-pays to the facility and the physician reading the x-ray are required at the time of the visit, etc where usually ONLY CHECKS are accepted? Everyone is to be penalized because the medical system (with the exception of specialists that make their money mostly off of cosmetic, non-insurance covered procedures) rarely accepts credit cards or debit cards?

Maybe this is more of bizarre-o land opposite ness in Hawaii but...

I have been paying office copays, clinic lab work, X-ray and MRI bills with my debit card since at least since when my kids were born in 1994. The various pediatrician offices I went to all accepted card payments. Also my doctors office does as well as the hospital I have been to, both in the emergency room as at the main hospital office.

It has been my experience that the medical system as a whole broadly accepts debit card payments, everything from private doctors offices, laboratories, medical clinics, and hospitals.

I personally don't rent but a very close friend of mine is a leasing agent at a 400+ unit apartment complex. I visit her at work often and have see with my own eyes tenants come in to the office to pay their monthly rent payment and watched her process the payment being paid with a DEBIT CARD!!

Perhaps a small time landlord that has a few various properties he rents and manages on his own would not accept card payments but I think most any property that is run by a management company accepts card payments for rent.

DocDrew
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SoCal
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I haven't written a check in years. All of my family's medical and dental expenses are deducted from my FSA account by way of a Visa debt card. Hospitals. Doctors. Dentists. Pharmacies. Optometrists. Orthodontists. Radiologists. Test labs. Etc. By phone, online, by mail, in person. All took it without a problem.
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to markf

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said by markf:

I'm not sure what more protection we need than to have the card and PIN to use the card.

I think Mele is referring to the idea (I have not checked the facts, but I will accept them for now) that in the USA, mag-stripe cards have traditionally been issued with legalese that restricts the user to $50 liability in case of theft, but chip-and-pin cards come with no such limitation: the cardholder is liable for all misuse.

Thus, even if chip-and-pin is more secure technology than mag-stripe-and-signature, in the USA it comes with much weaker legal protection.

If this is true, I'd think twice about carrying a USA chip-and-pin card, even though I think they're much more convenient than magstripe cards (with the joke that is signature verification), especially if you travel to Europe.

By the way, does anyone use a chip-and-pin card online? I assume that the pin is not used for online purchases: that like a magstripe card, all you need is number, expiration, cvv. True/false? If true, unlimited liability is very dangerous.

owlyn
MVM
join:2004-06-05
Newtown, PA

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I haven't paid a medical or dentist bill by check in at least 10 years. They all take credit cards and electronic payment from my bank. Maybe it's a Hawaii thing.

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
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join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

sivran to Mele20

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»www.consumer.ftc.gov/art ··· it-cards

If you somehow manage to not report it for over 60 days after the statement, you probably deserve to be wiped out anyway. Or you're dead, in which case your family can probably get a lawyer to fix the problem.

BofA goes above and beyond however, giving you zero liability if you report within the 60 days even though legally they could hold you for 50-500$, depending on when you report. Of course, after 60 days you're still fucked.

»www.bankofamerica.com/de ··· urity.go

So the protection is effectively the same if you report it as soon as you discover it. If you're lazy, fuck you.

Kilroy
MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

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said by Mele20:

Also, explain to me how folks are supposed to make their co-payments to the doctors, out patient surgery, getting a simple x-ray or ultrasound where co-pays to the facility and the physician reading the x-ray are required at the time of the visit, etc where usually ONLY CHECKS are accepted?

I'm going to have to go with the group about this being an issue in Hawaii. Almost every place that frequently has bills of $20 or more accept credit cards. A very few places that accept credit cards will not accept debit cards. I'm amazed at the number of places where I can put my lunch on my debit card, as those charges are normally under $10.

I write no checks for my bills, I pay online via the company's web site. The reason for this, instead of using bill pay, is that the payment posts to the account I owe that day, but may not actually come out of my account for a few days. The money is there when I pay the bill, but I get a little more interest until their payment clears. I use electronic transfers to move money to my credit union from my bank.

Since I can now deposit checks from my iPhone, there is no reason to visit the bank. I only visit the ATM every other week to take out money to pay for lunch. I prefer cash over credit for these transactions since they are so small and I know the merchant actually takes a hit when I charge.
Kilroy

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The only issue on reporting is that you can't pay the disputed amount. This can be an issue for people who pay their bills in full.

fuziwuzi
Not born yesterday
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Palm Springs, CA
Hitron EN2251
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fuziwuzi to Mele20

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said by Mele20:

I repeat that you should educate yourself on the consumer laws of the USA regarding credit cards vs debit cards instead of accepting lies you have been told by banks and ignorant friends. You can do a search in this forum going back many years and you will find a number of threads on this issue.

Dude, I *WORKED* for banks in the IT department. I am quite confident I am far better educated about security than you. The only information about card security issues I see in these forums are from Luddites like you who have absolutely no clue.
said by Mele20 See Profileplease explain to me how folks who rent are supposed to pay the rent each month if they cannot write a check or are penalized for doing so? Renters are second class citizens that you think should be punished because they rent?[/bquote :

Dude, I rent. I have no problem paying my rent using Wells Fargo's online bill pay system. There is no check involved since the payment is handled completely electronically, from my account to the landlord's account. Likewise, I pay my co-pays at the doctor's office using my debit card. All of my medical records are online. I can use an app on my smartphone to send encrypted, secure messages to my doctor, retrieve lab results, check and make appointments, request prescription refills, etc.
Please enjoy your continuing decline into mediocrity while the rest of the world moves on.


Blackbird
Built for Speed
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join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN

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Blackbird

Premium Member

said by fuziwuzi:

said by Mele20:

I repeat that you should educate yourself on the consumer laws of the USA regarding credit cards vs debit cards instead of accepting lies you have been told by banks and ignorant friends. You can do a search in this forum going back many years and you will find a number of threads on this issue.

Dude, I *WORKED* for banks in the IT department. I am quite confident I am far better educated about security than you. The only information about card security issues I see in these forums are from Luddites like you who have absolutely no clue. ... Dude, I rent...

Uhmm... FYI, the "Dude" is not a guy. Moreover, "working" in bank IT departments hardly itself constitutes making you an expert or "better educated" about US consumer law regarding credit cards vs debit cards, the consumer legal liabilities relative to each, and the policies of specific banks in her locale, which are what Mele was referring to in that sentence.
mysec
Premium Member
join:2005-11-29

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I do not use online banking.

I pay some bills by check, and can walk to pay a couple of local bills. (Walking helps keep me trim!) Checks are free from my bank, a local community bank.

I use an all-in-one ATM/Debit/Credit card from my bank. It's really a Debit card, but is accepted by businesses who want Credit Cards only. The card is backed by the Bank in case of fraudulent usage.

I do not use ATM machines. If I need cash, I get Cash-Back when I make a purchase with the card. I make deposits in person at my bank, a very nice place to visit, where clerks know their regular customers by name, and where I can have a cup of coffee and a doughnut.

This has been my routine for 20+ years.

----
rich
markf
join:2008-01-24
Scarborough, ON

markf to dave

Member

to dave
said by dave:

I assume that the pin is not used for online purchases: that like a magstripe card, all you need is number, expiration, cvv. True/false?

True - no PIN for online purchases.

To encourage use, I know my credit card has limited liability online.

If they can show you gave your PIN to someone, or it was a basic one (birthdate, address, phone number etc), then I believe it's unlimited liability for chip and PIN use.

I change my PIN every few months, so that if something were to happen, there would be a record of my attempts to maintain security.

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
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join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

sivran to Kilroy

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to Kilroy
said by Kilroy:

The only issue on reporting is that you can't pay the disputed amount. This can be an issue for people who pay their bills in full.

Well, paying your bill in full or in part doesn't really apply to debit cards, which have no monthly bill.

fuziwuzi
Not born yesterday
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Palm Springs, CA
Hitron EN2251
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fuziwuzi to Blackbird

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"Dude" can be a generic term that is not gender specific. As to my knowledge of laws and rules, I wager my knowledge is far more complete than that of someone who still lives in 1950. I also know the conditions as set forth by my bank, Wells Fargo. I'm also pretty good at using Google so I know that Hawaii isn't as backward and primitive as the "Dude" suggests. It is only her inability to progress to the 21st century that holds her back, not the State in which she lives. Enjoy your mediocrity while the rest of the world marches onward.

DownTheShore
Pray for Ukraine
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join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ

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Also, explain to me how folks are supposed to make their co-payments to the doctors, out patient surgery, getting a simple x-ray or ultrasound where co-pays to the facility and the physician reading the x-ray are required at the time of the visit, etc where usually ONLY CHECKS are accepted? Everyone is to be penalized because the medical system (with the exception of specialists that make their money mostly off of cosmetic, non-insurance covered procedures) rarely accepts credit cards or debit cards?

I would say that for at least the past 30 years, every medical practitioner, hospital, supplier and testing location that I have been to here in NJ has taken credit/debit cards. Those doctors want their money and they'll take it any way they can get it.
AricBrown
join:2002-12-11
Amarillo, TX

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1) I use my pc at home and my one at work, But its not a big deal if anybody could get into it. All they could see is my balance and transfer around to my various accounts. They can't do any outside transfers as my bank would call me to verify a new account. If They try to add a new bill pay account it emails me (which I see instantly on my phone) and I have to approve it.
2) probably but my bank has pretty good security (see #3)
3) I use my card everywhere. Once a year or so my bank calls me (the security department) and says my number has show up on a list of compromised cards and they are going to kill it. Which is ok by then it is usually worn out and ready for replacement. I left the county called them and told them and they watched my card (guy said it was on his screen and if any activity popped up he new within seconds (nothing happened)

I have never had a problem ever. But then I bank at a regional bank ( A few billion in assets) So they seem to have a more hands on approach than the big guys.

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
Premium Member
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI

Snowy

Premium Member

said by AricBrown:

I have never had a problem ever. But then I bank at a regional bank ( A few billion in assets) So they seem to have a more hands on approach than the big guys.

Most people won't face any issues with online access, one reason being that access itself is only one step in a multi-step process for a successful account hijacking.
Along with access there's usually a need to change the accounts contacts email address & sometimes the contact phone number too.

Surprisingly some financial institutions allow contact changes without a verification process.
Have you ever determined your banks policy re a change in contact info?
tim92078
join:2010-07-15
San Marcos, CA

tim92078 to Mele20

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said by Mele20:

I just got an offer for a brand new just being introduced mileage card that I was interested in until I saw it said it comes with a chip (as well as mag stripe) so you can use it in Europe when you redeem your miles. I have to call and ask if they will send a mag stripe only instead. No way would I get this card, which has great introductory perks and continuing perks (no charge for first bag) unless I can get a non chip one or I could remove the chip but it is not always easy to tell where to cut and being a new card for Hawaiian Airlines customers ony not too likely that someone will have uploaded a youtube video to show where to cut out the chip.

99% of the chip credit cards issued in the USA are chip-and-signature. There may be a PIN issued but it's for use at ATM's for cash advances only. The chip only responds to physical contact, it's not RFID. There are only a couple of financial institutions (credit unions, mostly) in the USA that issue true chip-and-PIN credit cards.

None of the chip cards issued by the big American banks are true chip-and-pin. "Works in Europe" is only partially true - the card will be familiar to retail staff but they'll be a bit surprised when a signature slip gets spat out of their terminal. For unattended transactions - a lot of train kiosks, tolls, gas stations - you're still going to be out of luck.

There are darned few places where you can make a chip transaction in the USA, but that's going to change in the next couple of years. Want to cut the chip out the card? Go ahead and do it, just keep in mind that the magstripe is encoded with a flag that says there's a chip present. Chip capable terminals will read that flag and refuse the card unless the chip is used.

Back on topic -

I use online banking services from my computer, my phones, whatever really. I just make sure my computer has up to date virus protection.

I don't use the debit card connected to my primary credit union account - ever. Everything goes on a credit card which I pay through online banking.

Bank employee computer security? The one institution I might have worked for in the past year took it incredibly seriously, and that's all I'll really say on that point.

AppleGuy
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join:2013-09-08
Kitchener, ON

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1) Yes, I been doing it for years.
2) Depends what you consider 'insecure'. Banks specialize in security though, so it should usually be 'secure'.
3) I've been using debit for 20 years now. For debit purchases, I won't shop at places I don't recognize, nor will I use stand alone ATM's that might frequent these joints. ATM can be very insecure due to skimming. I take care that I block out my PIN when plugging away.

With that in mind, though, I'm in Canada and our banking is radically different than the USA. Using debit cards is no different than credit cards in regards to liability. The advantage with CC are things like warranty and ability to dispute charges (paying for a service not rendered in the end).

Now my personal experience. I went to use my debit (ATM) card and it wouldn't work (I believe it was to do some online banking, not out and about). I called the bank branch and they re-activated it, but it still wouldn't work. When I talked to them again, they said there was a major breach and that a crapload of cards had been skimmed at this one retailer. So I went into the bank and got a new card. Skimming doesn't happen here much anymore because most machines take the chip. You can't swipe if retailer is taking the chip. Of the major retailers here, only Target and Lowes do swiping, which is kinda stupid, being new entrants, since magnetic transactions will be banned by this time from Canadian cards.

Mannus
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join:2005-10-25
Fort Wayne, IN

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I only use my home PC for online banking/purchases. I rarely carry cash and use my debit card for local purchases. I don't have a single recurring bill that I can't pay online. It's been years since I used snail mail to pay a bill. Heck, I just found a couple of check books for my checking account that I received when I opened up my account years ago. Never even used them.
Shady Bimmer
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join:2001-12-03

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to fuziwuzi
said by fuziwuzi:

Checks are an anachronism that, thankfully, is going away. I wish banks would simply start charging people who continue to use them.

There are too many cases where that would not be feasible. Not every service provider will accept payment via credit/debit. There are those that will take a credit or debit card, but only via phone or by mailing (physical mail, not email) a form with the payment details. How is putting my credit card number on a piece of paper in an envelope to send through the US post office more secure than sending a check?

Many municipalities charge a "convenience fee" to use a credit or debit card, and do this because they leverage a third-party provider. You need to make the payment through that provider directly - such as via phone or internet. For instance, my local town tax receiver charges between $25 and $500 for the "convenience" of accepting payment from a third-party for those that wish to use credit cards. That party only accepts payments by phone.

As noted, not everyone can easily own a credit/debit card.

I pay my bills directly from my financial services account. While most are electronic payments, there are some that are printed checks sent by the bank in my name. If the bank (a major international bank that is a direct issuer of credit and debit cards themselves) can't make an electronic payment then how would an individual be able to do so? (Having worked in IT at a bank you should know why this is) Further, I know many people that do all "electronic" banking similarly but are not aware that some of those payments are in fact done by paper check.

Does your comment apply to all checks, including bank (teller) checks or similar certified checks?
said by fuziwuzi :

Dude, I *WORKED* for banks in the IT department

I shuddered upon reading this and honestly can't make any comments other than this explains a lot. I have worked in (and still work in) the financial industry in technology for three decades and have a completely different understanding than you do. There are still far too many that take a far too cavalier attitude towards security in all industries, including the financial sector.

I meet with various regulatory agencies regularly and certainly do not think that makes me any form of 'expert' on laws regarding liability on credit vs debit cards. I know many financial regulations (around the globe) very well, but that has nothing to do with laws covering liability in credit vs debit or in practices that financial providers may offer above and beyond those laws.

I use checks rarely, but when I do there is a specific valid reason.

BTW: There are already banks that do charge to use checks. This has been the case for as long as I can remember (several decades).