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tahoejeff
Premium Member
join:2001-07-01
Wisconsin Dells, WI

tahoejeff

Premium Member

benefit to starting my car every few hours? in subzero temps?

Temps will be 15-20 below zero the next couple of nights, and I have to work, so my car will not be in my garage. 2008 Pontiac Vibe with the original battery.

I have a remote starter installed on it. Is there any benefit to starting the car half way through my 10 hour shift and letting it run 10 minutes?

I know 5-6 years is pushing it for a battery, but too late to buy one and change it out now.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

mattmag



If the battery is that old, I would do it more frequently than once during your shift. More like every 3 hours or so would be safest in your case. It won't hurt a thing but use a little gas.

tahoejeff
Premium Member
join:2001-07-01
Wisconsin Dells, WI

tahoejeff

Premium Member

Thank you Matt! Will go with every 3 hours.
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym to tahoejeff

Premium Member

to tahoejeff
I've got a battery that is 5 something years old (which isn't old - the battery in my Mom's 2001 Honda Civic - it's old - 13 now - still kicking) and I considered taking it out and putting it in the garage tonight. But, I'm going to let it be.

I would recommend, short of replacing the battery, consider picking up a jump pack and/or a good set of jumper cables.

nostart
@optonline.net

nostart to tahoejeff

Anon

to tahoejeff
Starting the car and letting it idle for 10min will likely do nothing to help your old battery. A car is hardly charging at idle. a 2008 has so many electronics, who even knows if it will charge enough to make up the power you used to start it. At the very least make sure *everything* you can is turned off, radio, heater, etc. All you would really be doing is warming under the hood (and the battery).

The biggest thing I would do is let it sit for 10min before driving it, all the fluids are going to be cold and thick, while idle does not heat up a car well it will allow all the fluids to at least move around and warm up a little.

I would also think about a set of jumper cables, just keep in mind, any new car with a computer in it should not be a slave to jumping. When it's that cold (and even if it aint), if your hitting a dead battery, example I went to jump my truck, one battery (24V truck, 2x 12V batteries so half the amperage) as the battery is new but bad (need to return it) it actually sucked down my cars voltage so much it reset the computer while the car was running, I know this because, the CEL was off when I got back into the car (and I'm pretty sure the huge hole in my filler neck that is turning the CEL on did not magically fix itself)
TheMG
Premium Member
join:2007-09-04
Canada
MikroTik RB450G
Cisco DPC3008
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TheMG to tahoejeff

Premium Member

to tahoejeff
Do you not have a block heater?

Anyways, I've got a '06 Mazda 3 on the original battery and I've been able to start it at those temperatures after sitting all night without plugging in the block heater.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just make sure you have a set of booster cables handy in case you need a jumpstart (should always have a set in the car anyways)

And if your car is equipped with a block heater, do plug it in.
wth
Premium Member
join:2002-02-20
Iowa City,IA

wth to tahoejeff

Premium Member

to tahoejeff
Park in such a way so the front of the car is NOT facing the wind.

tahoejeff
Premium Member
join:2001-07-01
Wisconsin Dells, WI

tahoejeff

Premium Member

Thank you for all the additional comments! So i did get one vote for not starting it mid shift, and the comment does seem logical. Guess I will not do it.

I always start it 10 minutes before quitting time. Love using my remote starter in weather like this! Now someone mentioned shutting off everything that might use power...I leave my defroster fan on medium so the windshield can start to clear as it warms up. Don't these devices wait to kick in until the engine is running? I always thought they do.

nostart
@optonline.net

nostart

Anon

If you start your car for 10-15 whatever short time you drain X out of the battery starting it, now on idle if you run enough stuff you can actually kill the battery due to the lower output of the alternator, so you don't want to be starting the car however many times while your working and having all that stuff drawing power, you will be putting out almost nothing to recharge the battery. It could do more harm than good so if you did want to start the car, I would shut off everything that uses power. When you start the car and then drive it away that's one thing, the motor gets revs the alternator puts out more power and recharges the battery however with all that stuff running and the car then being shut off going no where you could drain more power out of the battery than if you never started the car. By the end of the night you could have a battery that's in worse shape than if you never started it.

If you have say for example a 100amp alternator that's not 100 amps all the time, that's 100 amps at say 2500 RPM, at 800 rpm it might only be putting out 30.

mattmag is very knowledgeable, if you did start it and I won't say don't, just make sure you have everything off so the battery can recharge, just running the car, it's gas, your running a electric fuel pump, 1000 computers, ignition (coil packs, or whatever that car has) maybe the radio, blower motor, lights... that's alot of draw on the charging system at idle, and then never going anywhere.

I don't have newer cars, I have a 97 and a 83 and I don't have a remote start, so I could not comment on them turning on while the car is starting or not. My concern is more the power draw at idle while you need to be recharging the battery, not the power draw at start up.

Your putting out very little power to recharge the battery at idle the last thing you want to do is start the car 4 times and drain the battery. Start her up, just have everything that pulls power off, I would shut the blower motor off too. Yes you might need to wait to defrost the window, once you get out and the car might be a little cold but... better than it not starting.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

mattmag

said by nostart :

mattmag is very knowledgeable, if you did start it and I won't say don't, just make sure you have everything off so the battery can recharge, just running the car, it's gas, your running a electric fuel pump, 1000 computers, ignition (coil packs, or whatever that car has) maybe the radio, blower motor, lights... that's alot of draw on the charging system at idle, and then never going anywhere.

I appreciate your input, even though you are a bit incorrect. The current era of automotive alternators is much different from those of past years. They are capable of producing much higher charging rates at low speeds, and even at idle speed. This was mostly a design requirement actually for the electrical systems to be able to perform correctly when operated at low speeds and in heavy traffic where standing at idle is common.

You are very much correct though in suggesting that all accessories are turned off to reduce the load, as any reduction will help. Some factory-installed remote-start systems though have pre-programmed HVAC control settings that will likely over-ride that attempt.

CJNeuls
@generalmills.com

CJNeuls to nostart

Anon

to nostart
I have a volt meter on my dash. It's -15 this morning and my battery is just short of a full 12 volts prior to startup, I start the car and watch withing seconds the alternator is giving my battery 14 volts. My guess is that while I am not getting the "full 100 amps" I am running the engine long enough to warm the underhood components, including the battery. This helps as the biggest draw on any battery in you vehicle is the cold not what is turned on. Whatever is on is not using any power till after you are running. Those goofy automotive engineers figured out how to design an ignition switch that would shut off power to everything not necessary except the start circuit. Once running the power is restored to the rest of the vehicle. I have been starting my vehicles in cold weather this way for over 30 years, and have never been stranded. This is what has worked for me, the choice is yours!
BTW I typically will spend some time helping jumpstart others who did not come out and start their cars. Just saying!

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall to nostart

MVM

to nostart
said by nostart :

...is let it sit for 10min before driving it...

Waiting for the "let it warm up" / "no need to warm it up" debate to start !

If it does, it would be interesting for those who vote against warming a car up to also provide what they consider to be "cold" is.

alishatimmi
@172.56.3.x

alishatimmi to tahoejeff

Anon

to tahoejeff
This is a tiny bit off topic but I didnt start my car at all durring this terrible snow storm and ive never had any problems before yesterday. I went out to start my car and it wouldnt even turn over. It clicked and the electronic stuff came on (air, lights etc) but it wouldnt do anything. Now idk if my batteries dead or my starters broken or if it just wont start because of the cold wind and snow. Im just curious if anybody knows what might be going on or maybe some advise as to what I can try to do?

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall

MVM

Very possible that the cold was the final straw and your battery is dead. You need to try and jump-start it - it will probably start and run. If so, drive to a place that can check it for you to possibly confirm it's the battery (likely a dead cell or cells).

Cogitate
join:2014-01-01
US

Cogitate to Hall

Member

to Hall
I have a 2014 Ford I bought two days ago.

It specifically states NOT to sit and warm up the vehicle.

Get in and go.

I do believe the Ford engineers must live in Florida or S. California.
TheMG
Premium Member
join:2007-09-04
Canada
MikroTik RB450G
Cisco DPC3008
Cisco SPA112

TheMG to tahoejeff

Premium Member

to tahoejeff
In the winter I generally just hop into the car, start it, and after about 30 seconds start driving. If I have to brush snow off the car, I'll start it first and let it run while I brush off the snow.

Oh, and I'm in Yellowknife where it isn't exactly warm during the winter.

According to my ScanGauge, engine coolant temperature reaches 20C (68F) within about a minute. So despite the lack of any heat coming out the vents, the engine does warm up very fast.

I find the vents don't give off significant heat until the engine reaches at least 75C (167F), which occurs after about 5 minutes of driving. If I idle it can take 15+ minutes to reach that same temperature, sometimes it never reaches that temp idling in really cold weather!

Grumpy4
Premium Member
join:2001-07-28
NW CT

Grumpy4 to tahoejeff

Premium Member

to tahoejeff
True synthetic oil is a huge plus in sub zero temps.

A simple little practice may help as well -- turn off all current draws, like heater motor and DRLs, then turn key to on position for 10 seconds or so before engaging starter. The 10 seconds pause allows the ECU to catch it's breath from sensor inputs, kind of like a boot up phase. You may find your vehicle starts a little bit quicker in warm and cold weather when the sensors and ECU (or ESM, depending upon your favorite flavor) are allowed to wake up a bit before the starter spins.

And just in case 7 people out of 77 million didn't get the memo - NEVER touch or pump the gas pedal when starting a modern vehicle in any weather. The practice (may) piss off the gremlins that live in the fuel control units.

The exception is carbureted with manual choke vehicles, which are probably extinct in the US by now. The last one I knew of was a mid or late 80s Corolla, where one would set the choke with a slow half or full stroke gas pedal depression, then let the pedal return to the top.

Ol' skool, fer sure.

Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium Member
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30

Doctor Olds to tahoejeff

Premium Member

to tahoejeff
said by tahoejeff:

Temps will be 15-20 below zero the next couple of nights, and I have to work, so my car will not be in my garage.

Have you considered installing a block heater, or oil heater or coolant heater? There are several types and styles plus they have battery warmers too that keep them warm. Everything starts up easier when it is already warmed up and doesn't waste gasoline. You do need access to power though.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Metronet

CylonRed to Hall

MVM

to Hall
I drive off within 30 seconds of starting the car - syn or regular oil does not matter. I used to let.it 'warm up'but found it warmed up much faster by driving it. All engines over 100k miles. Current car has 182k miles. The ONLY time I have not just driven it off is if the car needs to be scrapped/brushed off. So far - only time I had to scrape was once this year.
CylonRed

CylonRed to Grumpy4

MVM

to Grumpy4
Very rarely hitting the gas with a modern car may need to be done. I have only done this 2 times with a modern car - last.time on Jan 2. On jan 1 it was 50 degrees and I started the car and backed it out a few feet and shut off the car. 20 minutes later.I moved the car back in th garage. Next morning it was very cold high teens I think. Car would not start till I hit the gas after 8 attempts to start the car.

The ECU was set for a much higher temp than it was. Car ran like crap for about 10 minutes till it reset itself. Been fine since.
JBear
join:2005-02-24
canada

1 recommendation

JBear to TheMG

Member

to TheMG
said by TheMG:

In the winter I generally just hop into the car, start it, and after about 30 seconds start driving. If I have to brush snow off the car, I'll start it first and let it run while I brush off the snow.

Oh, and I'm in Yellowknife where it isn't exactly warm during the winter.

According to my ScanGauge, engine coolant temperature reaches 20C (68F) within about a minute. So despite the lack of any heat coming out the vents, the engine does warm up very fast.

I find the vents don't give off significant heat until the engine reaches at least 75C (167F), which occurs after about 5 minutes of driving. If I idle it can take 15+ minutes to reach that same temperature, sometimes it never reaches that temp idling in really cold weather!

I'm in Edmonton so while it doesn't get cold as often it does get as cold.

We plug in the block heater (at least 3.5 hours prior) if it gets below -20C (-4F), other than that my car should be fine. If you don't have access to power or don't have a block heater I'd suggest starting the car for 10 minutes every 3.5 hours if you are worried about your battery.

bemis
Premium Member
join:2008-07-18
united state

bemis to mattmag

Premium Member

to mattmag
said by mattmag:

They are capable of producing much higher charging rates at low speeds, and even at idle speed.

My Civic will drop to 12.4V or so at idle when the engine cooling fan clicks on if the headlights and hvac blower are also on... you can hear/see the obvious difference as you shift down 2V from ~14.5 it's usually at. If I run the rear defrost too it's a given that it will be down into the 12V range at idle.

Tho I don't know about your car... but when I start my car in 0*F temps it'll idle at about 1800rpm to start and takes a good few minutes before it's anywhere near 1000rpm or lower, so I'd guess it'll be fine regardless if you're just running for 5-10 mins.

I bought a jump start pack and I carry into my office with me, I plug it in for a few hours every couple of weeks... nothing worse than going to your car at night in the freezing cold after everyone else is gone, and hearing that rur-clickclickclickclick sound of a just-dead-enough-not-to-start battery
Victory0
join:2005-11-11
Pawcatuck, CT

Victory0 to tahoejeff

Member

to tahoejeff
Have your battery load tested. Make sure you have the right oil in your car for the temps. Make sure you car is properly tuned and maintained for winter driving BEFORE winter.
Idling car does nothing good. Condensation builds up in the exhaust and it rusts out quicker. Modern Alt maybe puts out more at idle but there is a lot more drawing on it. If I can't get in my vehicle no matter what temp and start and then drive away it doesn't belong in my driveway.
Most of the time your battery is taking it's worst beating in the summer. Then the thick oil and such puts a strain on it and the battery fails.
The most important thing is to have your car ready before you need it.
I normally get 8 years out of a battery. Drive long enough to make sure it is fully charged each trip.
If you have corrosion on top post batteries clean and tighten the cables.

Now's the time to get your A/C tested not when it fails on a hot summer day.

digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium Member
join:2000-07-15
GTA

digitalfutur to tahoejeff

Premium Member

to tahoejeff
Very few failures occur with no warning. A 5 year old battery is a failure waiting to happen, as it's unlikely to pass a load test.

Maintaining the vehicle according to the manufacturer's schedule, and driving it to full operating temperature every day, or almost every day, is the best way avoid unexpected surprises, absent a parts failure.

In practice, this means not driving more car than you can afford, including maintenance costs, which add an annualized $50-$75+ per month to the total ownership cost.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

1 edit

2 recommendations

mattmag to Victory0

to Victory0
said by Victory0:

Most of the time your battery is taking it's worst beating in the summer. Then the thick oil and such puts a strain on it and the battery fails.

I can't think of anything further from fact than that statement.

Summertime is a comparatively-speaking walk in the park for a battery. As the battery gets colder, the available Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) drops at a rate that is exponential to the temperature. For example, a battery rated at 850 CCA is capable of delivering 730 amps at -10. At -20 that drops to 600, and at a bone cold -30 it can only produce about 450 amps, nearly a *50%* loss in rated power.

Cold engine oil is MUCH more thick than in hot weather, and in fact, battery output performance increases *above* its CCA or just plain Cranking Amp rating (measured at 32F not 0f like CCA) as it gets warmer.

Heat has a significant effect on electrolyte evaporation and it does kill batteries, but it needs to be very hot for that to occur. By far, many more batteries ultimately fail in the winter of a cold climate area than summer.

ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA

ropeguru to Grumpy4

Premium Member

to Grumpy4
The other reason I wait the 10 seconds or so anytime I start a vehicle is also to give the fuel system time to pressurerize and the fuel pump to stop.

EGeezer
Premium Member
join:2002-08-04
Midwest

1 recommendation

EGeezer to tahoejeff

Premium Member

to tahoejeff
My '95 Avalon appears to be charging even at idle. The voltmeter gauge and the gauges on my GPS (which are bluetoothed through the OBD II port) also show charging above the battery's static voltage.

Additionally, the engine runs at about 2000 RPM when started cold, so the alternator gets more than enough speed.

As for driving after starting, I follow the same procedure every time - I start the engine, then adjust my seat, buckle my seat belt, adjust the mirror and check my mirrors before putting the car in gear. That takes about 15-20 seconds.

Additionally, I don't accelerate hard when it's first started. I don't know if all this makes a difference, but the Avalon just turned over 353,000 miles last week.

tahoejeff
Premium Member
join:2001-07-01
Wisconsin Dells, WI

tahoejeff

Premium Member

Thanks for all the great suggestions!
I would rarely have access to power, so block heaters, etc wouldn't be worth it. I did look at jumpstart packs on Amazon, and might pick one up for next season.
I guess I'll replace the battery next fall, although it seemed to have plenty of power starting the car in this cold spell.
My drive time from home to work is 7 minutes, so I don't know if that's even long enough to get the engine to full operating temps.
As to the original question, I did not start the car the first 2 cold night, and did do it last night. Sounds like the sub zero temps may be done for the season.

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall

MVM

said by tahoejeff:

I guess I'll replace the battery next fall, although it seemed to have plenty of power starting the car in this cold spell.
My drive time from home to work is 7 minutes, so I don't know if that's even long enough to get the engine to full operating temps.

I wouldn't worry too much about that battery having to be replaced. There's no rule that "x" years old is too old and you must replace it.

A seven minute drive is long enough to get it up to operating temperature. Does your car have a temp gauge or just a "dummy" light ? Now, when my wife's van had a dead cell, her 7-minute drive to work wasn't sufficient to fully charge it, so when you went to leave, she'd frequently have a dead battery. When I drove it to work (20-30 minutes), it was fine.

Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
there

1 recommendation

Cho Baka to mattmag

MVM

to mattmag
Summer temperatures can and do damage batteries.

See the 4th paragraph in the following link:
»www.solar-electric.com/d ··· atteries