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RodneyL
join:2014-01-20

RodneyL

Member

[HVAC] Pro1 Thermostats Versus the Connected World

Ok so here is my situation. I have a Pro1 Thermostat from »www.pro1iaq.com and they claimed to save me thousands of dollars over the long haul. Now, we have all of these wifi connected devices coming out like nest and all the others and that gote me to thinking.

We are getting ready to build a new house and the builders are wanting to know if we want wifi refrigerators, stoves, microwaves, lights, garage door access, washer and dryers (my new crockpot) and now my thermostat. My question is does any of this save me money? How much time each week (if I have 9 devices connected to my home network) am I going to have to spend communicating with all the devices in my house? Seems to me like after i get done paying all the extra money for my wifi connected devices, the bandwidth I will consume to communicate with them, i might end up paying more in the long run.

I really could some perspective on this. Any one else have any thoughts?

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

Premium Member

I wonder are these devices dependent on "the cloud" or...

I would doubt they use much data though.

cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

cowboyro to RodneyL

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to RodneyL
Bandwidth used is next to nothing. And unless you're one of the 100 people who get billed by the byte then it costs you nothing extra to start with.
lutful
... of ideas
Premium Member
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON

lutful to RodneyL

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to RodneyL
said by RodneyL:

We are getting ready to build a new house and the builders are wanting to know if we want wifi refrigerators, stoves, microwaves, lights, garage door access, washer and dryers (my new crockpot) and now my thermostat.

You should choose the appliances on your own and ask the builders to concentrate on building the actual home.

You can ask the builders to run separate circuits for heavy appliances and kitchen outlets so you can install power monitors and remote ON/OFF feature which is accessed via the power wires.

You can also install LED lights and LED-friendly dimmers.
said by RodneyL:

My question is does any of this save me money?

Smart thermostat and lighting controllers can save some money if they are configured properly. Turning off small appliances with continuous power supplies can also save some money. Of course LED based lights will also save money.

But you pay more to buy LED lights, smart appliances, power monitors, etc.

P.S. In my opinion there should be NO direct internet connectivity on appliances. Not WiFi and not Ethernet either.

fluffybunny
@cipherkey.com

fluffybunny

Anon

you should have every appliance and anything else connected you can think of.
some people are stuck in the 1800s - ignore em. it makes life a lot easier if you can check your fridge status remotely at the grocery store, check if your stove is off remotely from work, start your heating just after your plane lands at the airport etc etc. I have well over 80 devices on my wifi network and no slowdown or any issues.
only thing is to make sure your appliances etc are NOT cloud dependent (will work without internet connectivity), follow open standards (no proprietary stuff - always make sure you get the programming guide with them and its an open API). 3M-50 filterete are great open wifi thermostats.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

1 recommendation

DarkLogix

Premium Member

Forget that I want a AB controllogix controlled HVAC system with a scada system managing everything and then a server running as a VM on ESXi providing a secure page hosted at my home for me to log into and monitor it all.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to fluffybunny

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to fluffybunny
And how much time do you spend "checking" on your 80 devices?

I know exactly what's in the fridge when I'm in the grocery store, I turn my stove off every time I'm finished using it nor do I change the thermostat set point.

I also enjoy not having to walk around staring a 2-1/2 inch screen and wearing my thumbs out 24/7. My wife and I actually are able to talk to each other and other people too. We were watching a man and woman at lunch today. Each was texting and not speaking to each other. We concluded they were texting each other over the table.

News flash we are not stuck in the 1800's but grew up not being addicted to a smart phone that dominate our lives.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

Premium Member

But what if you want to prank a house guess and make them think your house is haunted?

fluffybunny
@cipherkey.com

fluffybunny to Jack_in_VA

Anon

to Jack_in_VA
very little time checking them. when i NEED to check em theyre there.
and who said anything about smartphones ? I login to my firewall using my laptop at the airport to turn on the heat. when i get home the house is nice and comfortable. i monitor house cameras once in a while on vacation to see how it is.
i use a smartphone only at the grocery store to dump out a list of groceries i need (which BTW are sent from my fridge).
i turn off the stove manually too but when i leave the house an extra check is performed in case i mess up - and the stove makes sure to turn itself off. similarly my house lights up, switches garage lights, door and exhaust on when i am within two blocks and my phone connects to the wifi. no manual tinkering with the smartphone needed.
its like having a car - you have the option of driving around. why wait for the horse buggy driver to come around and pick you up ? you need it, its there. you dont want it ? dont use it.

ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI

ArgMeMatey to fluffybunny

Member

to fluffybunny
said by fluffybunny :

3M-50 filterete are great open wifi thermostats.

As a user of an equivalent Radio Thermostat unit for about a year, I'll take issue with that.

They work OK but the control algorithms are not as sophisticated as Honeywell's. For example, deadband, outdoor sensor and heat anticipator are better on the Honeywell WiFi thermostats that I use now. The Honeywells also have better backlight & mounting options.

I did like the openness of the Radio Thermostats, the logging and the LAN communication, but for me the short-cycling of the furnace and A/C were a major turnoff with long-run risks that were not mitigated by the features of the Radio Thermostats.

On the other hand, during the time I used their iPhone app, they did make substantial improvements in the reliability and consistency of control through app and firmware upgrades. Perhaps if this has continued, they have a product that competes on more than openness.

I am guessing Honeywell uses trade secrets as well as patent law to protect their market share, as would anybody who had a better product that others want to emulate.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to fluffybunny

Premium Member

to fluffybunny
Your refrigerator counts inventory and automatically transmits the results to you?

Laptop? That's even worse than a smartphone. How many "vacations" do you take that you need to monitor your cameras?

I am completely able at 70 years to turn a light on.

You attempted humor putting down those who don't share your obsession is typical. I have a 2013 Lexus. Hardly a horse and buggy thank you.
lutful
... of ideas
Premium Member
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON

1 edit

lutful to fluffybunny

Premium Member

to fluffybunny
said by fluffybunny :

i turn off the stove manually too but when i leave the house an extra check is performed in case i mess up - and the stove makes sure to turn itself off.


In my opinion, smart power monitors with remote ON/OFF capability are more appropriate to do such tasks at selected AC outlets. Access from the public internet can be through a secure device gateway located within the home.
said by fluffybunny :

similarly my house lights up, switches garage lights, door and exhaust on when i am within two blocks and my phone connects to the wifi.

Google and other companies are investing in Bluetooth Low Energy (BT-LE) which is more appropriate than WiFi for the future connected home.

You could have a thousand nodes securely running behind your BT-LE gateway which can optionally be accessed through the internet. Automation applications for all those devices could also run on the gateway.

FYI many WiFi routers have a limit of 128 concurrent clients and some are actually limited to 32. BT-LE and DECT-LE are designed for the "internet of things" with hundreds of devices per home.

P.S. You must have a smart door lock too. »[OT] Door Magnet Locks IP Controlled

fluffybunny
@cipherkey.com

fluffybunny to Jack_in_VA

Anon

to Jack_in_VA
what it does is subtract from inventory as you cook (by selecting what meal youre going to prepare and what ingredients are required on a daily basis). when you go to a grocery store you reload the stuff you need by telling it what you added. it also sends a list of stuff you should buy based on inventory levels. it doesnt have a food weighing or inventory option but is good enough for what it does. not perfect but decent enough so i dont have to bother with grocery lists.
i go on 20-30 business trips a year and 1-2 vacations. the vacations are longer and yes i do check the cameras using a laptop (actually a ideapad yoga which doubles as an ipad). i vpn in with a Zyxel USG300 as my gateway (with two redundant internet connections) and have the entire house accessible over the VPN link. yes you are able to turn a light on but are you able to switch the garage door on, start the garage exhaust fan on, disarm the alarm and everything else by hitting one light switch ? i can do all that just by driving up to my house without hitting anything. just park the car in and close the door exiting the garage and the exhaust automatically shuts off after 45 min and the door locks/door opener powers down and garage lights go off.

Caddyroger
Premium Member
join:2001-06-11
To the west

Caddyroger to fluffybunny

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to fluffybunny
In the 45 years of cooking and baking i have yet failed to turn off the burner or turn off the oven. When I go to store i take a look in the frig and white down what I need and some times I do not even look.. I do not need a frig to tell me what I need and do not need.
Caddyroger

Caddyroger to Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

to Jack_in_VA
I am with you this wifi is getting ridicules.

fluffybunny
@cipherkey.com

fluffybunny to Caddyroger

Anon

to Caddyroger
so youve never missed an item and had to drive back earlier to the store wasting time and fuel ? youve always been able to plan ahead and always buy enough items until the next scheduled trip to the store? youve never left food in the oven after the baking timer expires ? congratulations on your perfect recall and incredible inventory skills.
meanwhile for the rest of us.....

Caddyroger
Premium Member
join:2001-06-11
To the west

Caddyroger

Premium Member

How does the frig know what you made need extra of 5 days from now? Never have left food in the oven. That like having turkey for thanksgiving and not eating the turkey because you for got and left it was in the oven. Does your wifi tell when to take shower, use the toilet when to eat.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

The "online" generation needs their devices to be able to operate in the world today. Like the McDonalds clerks that aren't able to make change without the cash register telling how much.

It's not out of the question that they also need WiFi to tell them when and how long to shower, when to go to the toilet and when to eat.

Constantly looking down at their device.

Jack

fluffybunny
@cipherkey.com

fluffybunny

Anon

the point of automation is not to allow you to operate in the world -- its to let the machines handle the routine and boring stuff and give you more free time.
sure we could all switch lightbulbs on and open garage doors and make grocery lists on paper. i rather have the machines do all that and walk into a grocery store and pick up the stuff without thinking about it. i dont want to spend the extra 2 minutes or whatever thinking about whether my garage has been ventilated sufficiently to be able to shut the fan off. i want a machine to do it and secure the garage door. i want to see if there are ay issues in my house wherever i may be. even from halfway across the world i want to be able to see if i shut my stove off or whether my lights are off or if my garage door is down. i want to be able to get access to anything in my house at any time from anywhere. thats what automation gives you - a choice and some peace of mind.

cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

cowboyro to RodneyL

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to RodneyL
You don't need a smart fridge to tell you when to buy carrots. You need the "Our groceries" app. Create your lists, add whatever you want in under 10 seconds - even the toilet paper that the fridge (hopefully) doesn't keep track of. Or a bottle of scotch. Or a broom. Go to the store and cross them off in a touch. And you can share your list with other devices so your SO can add and delete items as needed. Synchronized list across multiple devices beats everything.
lutful
... of ideas
Premium Member
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON

lutful

Premium Member

said by cowboyro:

You don't need a smart fridge to tell you when to buy carrots. You need the "Our groceries" app.

Android tablets are getting so cheap that you could slap one on each of your dumb appliances and call them smart.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to fluffybunny

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to fluffybunny
Whatever you chooze. Personally I refuse to be tied to a device do what I can do quickly with no problem and I don't have to be walking around with a device in my hand. My brain tells me what needs to be done and eliminates the need for electronics.

dennismurphy
Put me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium Member
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ

dennismurphy

Premium Member

said by Jack_in_VA:

Whatever you chooze. Personally I refuse to be tied to a device do what I can do quickly with no problem and I don't have to be walking around with a device in my hand. My brain tells me what needs to be done and eliminates the need for electronics.

I like to think I'm a delightful mix of both.

I have some really neat toys (like a Nest thermostat) that do some good stuff for me - for example, I can set the away temperature in my house when I'm on vacation but reset it on the way home so it's comfortable when I get there. That's nice and adds value.

I have an iPhone, but still have a landline.
I have an iPad, but still take meeting notes in a paper notebook.
I love the iPhone integration in my Cadillac, but use it to listen to The Who.

I occasionally do my food shopping online for store pickup, because it saves me money (less impulse buys.) One has to know oneself.

My lighting is a mix of LED, CFL and incandescent. I'm waiting for PAR40 LED's to drop a little more before I go whole-hog - my finished basement has 28 cans that become a crazy space heater and spin the meter when they're on. A jump to LEDs will make a big difference in comfort and utility cost there.

So yeah, I'm an eclectic mix of new and old. Just the way I like it.

fluffybunny
@teksavvy.com

fluffybunny

Anon

exactly right. the point is NOT to avoid electronics completely but do what works best for you.
if you have never used automation, you will not understand which areas it could best fit you and in which areas it would save you time and effort.
people used to light candles for light - fumbling around with matches and wax candles, mounting them on candlesticks and setting fire to wicks in the dark -- now our home controllers switch the lights on for us when the motion sensors are triggered and light switches are archaic. 20 years from now something else will come along which will render our home controllers obsolete.
the point is to try it out before dismissing it as a fad. it may/may not work for you but the important thing is to give it a try.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

I've installed, used and purchased more automation for a high dollar industrial operation with a more or less unlimited budget so I know exactly what automation can and cannot do. Equipment most can't even comprehend.

To try to "shame" people that don't share your views citing candles is juvenile.

A lot of us don't need that equipment as we have the ability and knowledge to turn on a light. We of the older generation don't need a keypad to guide our every movement. You best hope yours doesn't break as you might be rendered helpless.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

robbin to RodneyL

Mod

to RodneyL
said by RodneyL:

We are getting ready to build a new house and the builders are wanting to know if we want wifi refrigerators, stoves, microwaves, lights, garage door access, washer and dryers (my new crockpot) and now my thermostat.

Please post links to the items you are considering.

ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI

5 recommendations

ArgMeMatey to RodneyL

Member

to RodneyL
said by RodneyL:

I really could some perspective on this. Any one else have any thoughts?

A perspective some might find relevant:

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· bls9njHo

rfhar
The World Sport, Played In Every Country
Premium Member
join:2001-03-26
Buicktown,Mi

rfhar

Premium Member

said by ArgMeMatey:

said by RodneyL:

I really could some perspective on this. Any one else have any thoughts?

A perspective some might find relevant:

(youtube clip)

LOL

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to ArgMeMatey

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to ArgMeMatey
That is the absolute truth. Sooner or later the electronic dependence will bit them in the butt.
TheMG
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join:2007-09-04
Canada
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TheMG to Jack_in_VA

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to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

The "online" generation needs their devices to be able to operate in the world today. Like the McDonalds clerks that aren't able to make change without the cash register telling how much.

Which I always laugh at because it's sooooooo simple.

Price is $16.55 for example.

Customer hands $20 bill.

Start with biggest change first and work your way down until price+change=$20.

Soooo...

$2 coin, $16.55+$2=$18.55

not there yet, add $1 coin, $19.55

add a quarter, $19.55+$0.25=$19.80

can't add another quarter, add two dimes, $19.80+$0.20=$20

So the final change is one toonie, one dollar, one quarter, and two dimes.

Simple game of addition. That's like grade 3 level math.

Many many years ago when I used to work at a fast food place, I used to get the coin change ready before the car even pulled up to the drive-thru window, using this simple method. Made things much faster than waiting for the customer to pay in order for the register to tell me how much change I needed then get out the change.