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Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02

[NFL] NFL Best of Players/Teams Discussion

Let's discuss the best CB, QB, WR, RB, etc. or best teams. Having that discussion in the Super Bowl thread isn't very productive. Be respectful and bring facts!
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aurgathor

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said by Critsmcgee:

bring facts!

The only really facts are the individual stats and results, but because american football is a team sport, they may not mean as much as many people think.

No matter how good a throw may be, if a receiver drops it, that won't help the QB's stats (just ask Brady) and may lead to a loss in an otherwise winnable game. Also, if the QB is well protected, that will normally have a positive effect on his numbers and the end results. And vice versa. In addition, there are luck (not Andrew) and injuries. The Titans would've most likely be a playoff team with Locker, but due to injuries, no matter how good of a defense they had -- they just couldn't make it with a backup QB. Seems to me QBs are the least replaceable players -- if the starting QB is out, that can be very bad for many teams.

My opinion that the "facts" (stats & results) are not enough to differentiate between players and teams at the finer levels. It's enough to rank them as good, mediocre, or bad, but it may not be enough to differentiate between two good players or teams, especially if they didn't play in the same era.

Personally, I have no problem to listen to expert opinions, and if there's a general agreement (say, 80% or better on something) I can pretty much take it as a fact even if it's not.

Of course given the number of 'experts', there may be quite a few expert opinions, and occasionally they can differ a lot.

In any case, in little over a week, we should know the best team of 2013/14. And that will be a cold, hard fact, possibly in more than one way. In addition, we have similar records going back for quite a few years.
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Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
reply to Critsmcgee
Stats and results aren't all the facts one can use for example era of game play, NFL rules at the time are more.
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The Shadow
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reply to aurgathor
IMO the subject of a debate as to who the best are is pointless unless one enjoys such discussions simply for the sake of discussion. One must also tolerate the one or two inevitable trolls. Trolling and flame wars aside the problems with answering the "question" who is the best are:

1. Everyone all ready has made up their minds as to who is the best and nothing they read or see is going to change it.
2. A few people simply shoot the messenger or source or evidence instead of rebutting.
3. Even if it was possible to get a group of open minded people willing to discuss and debate in good-faith there is the problem that people don't even agree on a common set of standards as to what constitutes the best or would define the best. If there is no agreement as to what standards defines "the best" than it's just at best a social interaction.

For me the best source of defining the best are those that played or coached the game and as players, coaches, or commentators have seen or played against all those being considered as the best.

With the above group of "experts" you would between the periods of 1970 to present IMO achieve the following:

1. By a significant majority agreement on the best QB
2. By a significant majority agreement on the best WR
3. By a significant majority agreement on the best shutdown corner
4. A consensus of the best all around corner with three or four different players receiving a decent percentage of votes.
5. A consensus of the best RB with about 4 or 5 backs named
6. A consensus of the best team of that period

The above said, good luck to all that choose to debate the subject and I hope all enjoy themselves.

Meanwhile I look forward to see who is the best team is when the gun goes off ending the Super Bowl game. (Assuming the weather will permit the game to be played without an unacceptable factor in the play.)


aurgathor

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said by The Shadow:

1. Everyone all ready has made up their minds as to who is the best and nothing they read or see is going to change it.

Nope. I didn't make up my mind, and actually, I could care less.

My point her is that whatever little facts we have are insufficient -- they need to be put into the right context, adjusted based on the other players abd teams, etc., and coming up with a fully objective, statistical method is not easy or trivial, but if something like that would exist, then it would render such discussions and debates pointless.
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aurgathor

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reply to Critsmcgee
said by Critsmcgee:

NFL rules at the time are more.

But NFL rules contain no information about individual players or teams -- they are the same for everyone in a given season.
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Critsmcgee

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said by aurgathor:

said by Critsmcgee:

NFL rules at the time are more.

But NFL rules contain no information about individual players or teams -- they are the same for everyone in a given season.

What NFL rules Jerry Rice played with aren't the same rules Megatron plays with so that needs to be taken into account when comparing WR's. Rice could catch a ball and have it called complete if he went out of bounds. Rice also wasn't afforded the more WR friendly rules about his opportunity to catch the ball first nor was he playing in a time where the ref's called penalties as much and errored on the player safety side.
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25696122

join:2013-12-20
reply to Critsmcgee
No one would dispute Rice as the nest WR ever as of today. Calvin might someday get there.

The Shadow
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reply to aurgathor
said by aurgathor:

said by The Shadow:

1. Everyone all ready has made up their minds as to who is the best and nothing they read or see is going to change it.

Nope. I didn't make up my mind, and actually, I could care less.

My point her is that whatever little facts we have are insufficient -- they need to be put into the right context, adjusted based on the other players abd teams, etc.,

Make that most everyone then. (Which is what I really meant.)

What I post from your quote above is what I essentially said.

IMO clearly the best, not perfect, method to judge is to ask those that played against the people being rated and or observed the players over an extended period of time.

For example, just one: Think John Madden might be a good valid source for players from the seventies onward? (Or other former or current NFL coaches that saw many or all of the players from the seventies onward.)

For another example how about asking NFL defensive players that played in the same era of some great "best" QB candidates that played in the overlapping times of Montana, Elway, Marino, Young, Moon, to just cite a few.

There's nothing better than asking one's peers that competed against one as a player or coach IMO.


drslash
Goya Asma
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There is a flaw with asking contemporaries about all time best players. Most people don't want to offend somebody so they decline to answer that question. Private polls can be taken but there are flaws in that approach too. In the end, it's still left up to non experts arguing about it.

The Shadow
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said by drslash:

There is a flaw with asking contemporaries about all time best players. Most people don't want to offend somebody so they decline to answer that question. Private polls can be taken but there are flaws in that approach too. In the end, it's still left up to non experts arguing about it.

That's not my experience in the context of a formal rating. I mean come on the NFL a couple of years ago rated the top 100 players of all time using a similar format to what I mention.

»www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8···-players

Most of the living players that were ranked had their video profiles preceded by one of their peers that included either teammates or more often those that played against and even opposite of them.

The, of course, the NFL active players for each of the past three or so years have ranked their peers in the current top 100 active players.

»www.nfl.com/top100/2013#video=0a···00215204

There are many, many other such examples.

What you allude to is in informal non-structured unofficial setting like a guy is being interviewed as a guest and someone pops a question like that. Naturally and understandably he defers. Rightly and wisely so.

But in the right setting as demonstrated many times people will in the proper circumstances not be shy about offering their evaluation and opinions.


anonomeX

@comcast.net
reply to The Shadow
said by The Shadow:

...some great "best" QB candidates that played in the overlapping times of Montana, Elway, Marino, Young, Moon, to just cite a few.

Not to mention (or, do mention) a sub-category, such as "best pure passer" (Jurgensen).

25696122

join:2013-12-20
reply to Critsmcgee
We can drop Manning down now.