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SueS
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Macon, MO

SueS

Premium Member

Established principles for balance?

I had a disagreement with someone in the gallery today about composition. I think technically we have come a long way, I think we can all agree on that. When it comes to composition we are using the same established principles for balance that have been in place for a few thousand years. Everyone today has a camera and many photos are taken daily in every possible composition. My question is, do you believe those established principles for balance will ever go away, or at least new ideas will ever be as acceptable?

Willy
Premium Member
join:2000-09-24
USA

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Willy

Premium Member

I don't think they should but they're certainly being ignored.
In some cases it can lead to interesting results results, not sure they're better.

You see it in magazines, heads chopped off (full head not shown part of it cropped out) is one example I really don't like.

b8264d
Hello? Hello? Is there anyone out there?
Premium Member
join:2013-03-12
Weld, ME

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b8264d to SueS

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to SueS
What works for one person may not work for another. I believe it's a matter of opinion. I also believe just because something is an "established principle" doesn't mean that it has to be followed every time. To me that makes for some boring portfolios and boring photographs.

This is just my humble, uneducated opinion. ;o)

Jeff

SueS
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Macon, MO

1 recommendation

SueS

Premium Member

said by b8264d:

What works for one person may not work for another. I believe it's a matter of opinion. I also believe just because something is an "established principle" doesn't mean that it has to be followed every time. To me that makes for some boring portfolios and boring photographs.

This is just my humble, uneducated opinion. ;o)

Jeff

Thanks for the comments. I am not against someone doing their own thing or trying something new, but the photograph is not a very big area, and we seem to like some sort of balance.
Don't you think it is interesting that folks have had digital cameras for 10-15 years and we have heard over and over how we must break the rules or think outside the box, yet no new established ideas have come about? If there were new ideas that worked wouldn't someone be writing about them and others trying to learn the new better and exciting way to compose? Just some thoughts I have and questions.
29886823 (banned)
join:2005-03-29

29886823 (banned)

Member

It might help if you were to enumerate some of the principles of balance that we have been using for a few thousand years. The drawing in the Caves of Lascaux are about 17,000 years old.

SueS
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Macon, MO

SueS

Premium Member

said by 29886823:

It might help if you were to enumerate some of the principles of balance that we have been using for a few thousand years. The drawing in the Caves of Lascaux are about 17,000 years old.

I find composition interesting, and I see it in everything, the principals I am thinking about are those we see everyday. Have you looked in a mirror and wondered why your body is divided in three parts, or that you have five toes, or why your eyes are 1/3 of the way down on your face and including your mouth there are three points of interest? Why a bird can balance on two legs like we do, but they are shaped totally different? Ever wondered why some flowers have three petals and some have six yet both are beautiful? Have you ever looked close at an oak tree leaf to try to understand why it is interesting? Have you looked at a big tree and noticed how the branches grow out on all sides for balance?

I find it interesting that no two people look exactly alike (exception are twins) but are done in the same composition. I could go on but you probably get the idea.

darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
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join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
·Ziply Fiber

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darcilicious to 29886823

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to 29886823
I found this article interesting, especially the last "rule"

»www.digitalcameraworld.c ··· ey-work/

vaxvms
ferroequine fan
Premium Member
join:2005-03-01
Polar Park

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vaxvms to SueS

Premium Member

to SueS
Times change. Principles change. Established principles expand.
the rule of thirds should be called the rule for turds

jaykaykay
4 Ever Young
MVM
join:2000-04-13
USA

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jaykaykay to SueS

MVM

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Established principles says to me 'rules'. I believe in them. However, I also believe that breaking them sometimes works well, but that also depends upon the intended reason. I don't like missing heads, as an example cited by Willy. But I also have to determine what the shooter/ad had in mind. I still might not like it, but that's a personal choice. So is making the choice to go against the grain in the first place. And, yes, I have noted big trees and how limbs grow out of the sides for balance. I've also seen big trees with that one branch or 2, totally unbalanced, which brought my eye to that tree in the first place.

SueS
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Macon, MO

SueS to vaxvms

Premium Member

to vaxvms
said by vaxvms:

Times change. Principles change. Established principles expand.
the rule of thirds should be called the rule for turds

Thanks for commenting and sharing interesting examples.
While the interpretation of what we think a lady should look like is different, there are compositional rules in this image that are used.
SueS

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SueS to jaykaykay

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to jaykaykay
said by jaykaykay:

Established principles says to me 'rules'. I believe in them. However, I also believe that breaking them sometimes works well, but that also depends upon the intended reason. I don't like missing heads, as an example cited by Willy. But I also have to determine what the shooter/ad had in mind. I still might not like it, but that's a personal choice. So is making the choice to go against the grain in the first place. And, yes, I have noted big trees and how limbs grow out of the sides for balance. I've also seen big trees with that one branch or 2, totally unbalanced, which brought my eye to that tree in the first place.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree we will all have our dislikes and likes. I also agree with your idea on the tree, I also study those kinds of things as well, sometimes just the uniqueness of something is interesting.

broken
@comcast.net

broken to SueS

Anon

to SueS
if you search using

breaking rules of composition

you get plenty of info about and plenty of opinions about and plenty of discussion about what works and what doesn't.

one way to develop your own unique "style" is to consistently make images that break one rule.

think of those images of the red bus in the monochrome cityscape, or the images where the horizon is way way toward the bottom, or the images where the subject is facing toward the left, anti-reading direction.

sometimes there's a purpose for the breaking, sometimes it's just whimsy. magazine covers, e.g., need lots of empty space around a low central subject.

SueS
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Macon, MO

SueS

Premium Member

said by broken :

if you search using

breaking rules of composition

you get plenty of info about and plenty of opinions about and plenty of discussion about what works and what doesn't.

one way to develop your own unique "style" is to consistently make images that break one rule.

think of those images of the red bus in the monochrome cityscape, or the images where the horizon is way way toward the bottom, or the images where the subject is facing toward the left, anti-reading direction.

sometimes there's a purpose for the breaking, sometimes it's just whimsy. magazine covers, e.g., need lots of empty space around a low central subject.

Thanks for your comments. I agree there are reasons to break the rules, like tension, whimsy, extra space for magazine covers etc, but those ideas have been with us for a while. To break one rule while using other rules in the same image, means one is still using the same tried and true rules. I guess we will see what photos look like in the coming years, but I just don’t see things changing much, and part of me would like to be wrong and a part of me would like to be right.

ryzst
Premium Member
join:2004-06-14
Tustin, CA

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ryzst to SueS

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to SueS
For me, presentation is everything. I want my subject, whether it's a flower, bug or a mountain, to be the representation of that object. Iconic would be a good description. But the things I like to shoot are rarely organized in composition friendly ways. As an added complication, I shoot as much as I can with a 16:9 crop in mind. That's my iMac's aspect ratio and I'll do all I can to shoehorn the final picture into that window. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If I'm building a landscape with Vue or Terragen, I'll often use the rule of thirds, but I try not to make it too obvious. The same goes for real landscape shots. The rule of thirds is a great ideal to keep in mind, but you should also be flexible and balanced when composing the shot. Fortunately, every artist and photographer defines the ideal in their own, unique way. I think it's led to an explosion of great work across the web and I'm constantly being amazed & surprised by what I find. We're entering a Golden Age of art and the best thing to do is immerse yourself in it.

SueS
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Macon, MO

SueS

Premium Member

Thanks for your comments. I got the understanding that your flower photos were documentary when you responded to a point I made about the format in one of your photos. We have plenty of room here for those kind of shots, but I think it would be helpful if they are labeled documentary. My problem is that I have a tendency to look at everything as art, unless told otherwise. However that is my problem and I need to learn to deal with it.

I like to shoot flowers and look only for interesting or unique compositions,

I find the rules fascinating, as they are based on what we see every day, and only discovered by man. By not taking the time to really understand why they work, I think we cheat ourselves. Once we really understand the balance part I truly believe it opens many more doors to make interesting images than it closes. With those ideas in mind we can stretch and pull ideas every which way as long as we keep balance in mind. While you or others may not like this, it was done with an understanding of the rules.
»/speak ··· YXJ0PTMw
My goal is to make an interesting image that looks like it accidentally happened to look good, while I may have spent plenty of time planning.

b8264d
Hello? Hello? Is there anyone out there?
Premium Member
join:2013-03-12
Weld, ME

2 recommendations

b8264d to SueS

Premium Member

to SueS
said by SueS:

Don't you think it is interesting that folks have had digital cameras for 10-15 years and we have heard over and over how we must break the rules or think outside the box, yet no new established ideas have come about? If there were new ideas that worked wouldn't someone be writing about them and others trying to learn the new better and exciting way to compose? Just some thoughts I have and questions.

Some good thoughts and good questions. It is always good to look for new ideas and to question the existing rules, it's how we learn and grow, in my humble opinion. The method in which we take photographs may have drastically changed over the years but the principles of photography are the same irregardless oh what you use to make the photograph. Just my opinion and thoughts on it.