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york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO

looking into starting wisp

ok so i got basic down/ meaning dns,dhcp,radius, etc setup. how ever i am haveing problem's figureing out what heigh to put ap's/ant's. looking into ubnt airmax 3x120 sectional's. have not deceided on 2.4 or 5.0 band yet it is a small rual community. any idea's. here is a google map of town. »maps.google.com/maps?q=gallatin,···cQ_AUoAQ . any help would be much apreacated


TheHox

join:2012-05-31

Get on the water tower.
»www.google.com/maps/preview/plac···d8851a67

Put 3 sectors of each 2.4 and 5.8
Use 5.8 for perfect line of sight customers and you may be able to use 2.4 in a 10mhz width to customers with very minimal obstructions as long as you can manage the noise level.

Does this town have DSL or cable? Don't try and complete with wire line services. Unless you plan to serve the rural area where cable or dsl do not serve, that can work..



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1
reply to york

Depends on the terrain. I put backahauls up first for Fresnel clearance. Then 5.4 as high as I can get on the tower while staying away from the BH's, and 2.4 lower down. That has the advantage of lower wind loading in most cases since 2.4 sectors are a lot bigger than 5.x and you get better LOS to the 5.x sectors which you need, but 2.4 can sustain a little bit of foliage so they can be lower. I also put a strong down tilt on the 2.4 to avoid self interference with the next closest tower. 5.x dies quicker so not quite as big an issue.

Dual Polarity + shields and grounding for everything.



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to york

Be aware the UBNT sector antennas' horizontal beamwidth end-points are at the -6dB level in stead of the traditional antenna specification of -3 dB.

If you 're used to traditional antenna specifications, here is what you should consider.
UBNT Traditional
120° = 90°
90° = 60°

This means you should use FOUR instead of three sector antennas for a more consistent omni coverage.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to york

Depending on how many customers, and your plans. You could use the omni antenna in 2.4ghz. We have several of the 13db ones from ubnt and those are great. Built in downtilt. About 30-35 per omni. Put who you can on 5ghz.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to york

said by york:

ok so i got basic down/ meaning dns,dhcp,radius, etc setup.

Those things should be at near the very last of your "to do" list.

You need to have a business plan.
»[Equipment] Starting A WISP

Let's make this you starting point: Wiki Gallatin, MO - Population 1,786, 771 households.

The incumbent cable and DSL (if any DSL) are likely to be as low as $60 for 10 Mbps cable and $60 for 3 Mbps DSL. If you come in as the least expensive service by 30%, you could get 15% to 20% of the market. That's 120 to 150 subscribers.

Your net monthly income after a year could look like $5,000 to $6,300 per month. After upstream internet cost of say $1,700 per month for a 10 Mbps line, your income may $3,200 to $4,600 per month. that would be a decent second income.

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
reply to WHT

said by WHT:

This means you should use FOUR instead of three sector antennas for a more consistent omni coverage.

4 for 5ghz but what about 2.4? I've read a few of the "been there done that" threads on UBNT saying there is only enough spectrum to successfully do 3 2.4 120° sectors.


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

A-B-A-B with Chris' shields will work - may even work without the shields if radios are spaced far enough apart on a building or water tower.

Am installing a system in two weeks that will use four UBNT sector antennas with shields that can support up to 800 laptops/smartphones using only Ch. 1 and Ch. 11 out to 450 feet from 35 foot antenna elevation.


york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO

1 edit
reply to TheHox

the town does have dsl and cable both. how ever there are quite a few area's that can not receive. the only reason of starting here is i know of at least 15 people off top of head that would want it. plain is it start small and work way up. i live preety much in middle of town right by the A in a two story house was hopeing to put a 10/15 foot mast on top. which would give me a total height of about 40/45 foot aprox. just not sure if it would be able to rech area's needed. as well as if i can get it started there are servial town's around that dont have descent wire line service's. the only reason i have dhcp,dns,radius,transparent cacheing, activedirectory allready on network is personal use.


york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO
reply to TheHox

wireline service's are in town how ever cable is
1 meg download / 512k upload
3 meg download / 512k upload
6 meg download / 768k upload

lowest starting at about 40 a month. not including monthly taxe's and cpe fee's about 5-10 extra a month.

and then dsl they would be the hard one's to compete with i beleve base plain is 3/768 for around 20-25 a month and 12/768 for around 60 a month


TheHox

join:2012-05-31

And what is your cost for your upstream provider?


york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO

1 edit

i have looked around price's are high in this area. for a example a t1 including local loop etc is around 800 a month. how ever i have talked to dsl provider about eoc- ethernet over copper at 40 mb down and 5 mb up for about 300 a month. have verrifayied permission to sell, etc. trying to start kinda at bottom and work way up. honestlly more of a hobby that a few people started wanting if i can pull it off. hobby started with just setting how many ap's/modem's i could connect to in town and pull net from. with a small 14db superpass, and a wrt54g flashed with dd-wrt i have manage to pull at 2 block's out to just standard in house dsl privided wifi modem's. sorry for the extra!! that is just what kinda got me started now want to go furthar and learn more. i have searched google for like 1 year. to fell i still dont have enough knowdge to go 100% at it.


jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2

said by york:

i have looked around price's are high in this area. for a example a t1 including local loop etc is around 800 a month.

Don't bother with T1's, there's almost no way to be able to provide a competitive service at T1 pricing.

said by york:

how ever i have talked to dsl provider about eoc- ethernet over copper at 40 mb down and 5 mb up for about 300 a month. have verrifayied permission to sell, etc.

If that is true dedicated resellable bandwidth (get it in a written contract) that's really cheap. For reference, I pay $2,000 for 50 megs.

said by york:

hobby started with just setting how many ap's/modem's i could connect to in town and pull net from. with a small 14db superpass, and a wrt54g flashed with dd-wrt

I started my WISP with an old Linksys router running dd-wrt in a tupperwear container strapped to the top of a 50' push-up mast at a house I was renting in town. Not a real professional way to provide service, but the ROI is great for being able to generate some cash flow in order to have the budget for some better equipment.

york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO

yes i can get eoc from local dsl provider with a 99% sla agreement.



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1

said by york:

40 mb down and 5 mb up for about 300 a month

It's very hard to oversub service anymore, and even harder with competition, worse when you're small and worse still with a feed that is that asymmetrical.

If there are easily accessible surrounding areas with no competition it might be viable. If not then You might break even eventually, but what's your long term plan?

Unless you have deep pockets, because you wireline competition probably does, and are willing to loose money for the first 2+ years, fighting hard every day for every sub and sacrificing all your personal time, because it is a 24x7 business, and you won't have enough revenue to hire anyone to cover for you, I don't see a business case here. Walk away.

york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO

i beleve there is still room for wisp. as there is 2 working there way this direction about 20-30 miles on eatch side in bigger town's with more competition that direction. in fact there was one here befor that was bassed in a computer shop butt they had to shutdown when the irs got on the shop for nonpayment of taxxes, etc.


jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2
reply to Semaphore

said by Semaphore:

It's very hard to oversub service anymore... with a feed that is that asymmetrical.

FWIW, I'm just bumping my 50mb limit, and about to increase my package to 100mb, but my peak outgoing bandwidth just barely reaches 5 megs on my 5 minute graph, and more often is closer to 4.5 megs on my 30 minute graph. With similar packages and bandwidth usage, 5mb upload would be adequate for my network if I had 40mb down.

said by Semaphore:

I don't see a business case here. Walk away.

Almost everwhere I serve has DSL of at least 1.5 megs, most of the towns have faster cable/dsl of up to 10 megs, and a few even are offering fiber. Despite not even offering the fastest speed, I still have more than enough customers to easily make each town completely worth it. I'd say the trick is keeping overhead low (bartering wherever possible).

I wouldn't walk away just because of competition. If I could have gotten 40 megs for $300/mo, I would have jumped on the opportunity in a heartbeat. I started with 3 megs for $400, and still made it work.

york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO
reply to york

so kinda back to height for ant though. what would be a good height. i have used ubnt link calc but i would prefere real life exp.



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:6

As high as possible...



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5
reply to york

I've been saying for years that the 150 foot AP heights on water towers and colo cell towers is over. At 150 feet you could have a 10 mile radius covering almost 50 square miles. You would be literally passing over/by hundreds of potential subs that you can't support from a single AP cluster, and your end-point signal levels won't support much over 2 Mbps.

50 to 70 foot towers and less than 5 mile footprints may be more appropriate in some areas, and you don't have channel reuse pollution from dozens of miles away.


york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO

1 edit

so would it be fair to say that around 45 foot would cover at least 1 mile from the way i understand or am i understanding wrong. or even would this be a good table that would be about right. »www.connect802.com/height.htm



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:6

1 recommendation

It covers what it covers. There are many other factors involved...for example, the vegetation in the area. Got trees? Problematic.

You got trees, so to speak...



Each tree in the path between your antenna and the customer cuts the signal down significantly, limiting your coverage area.

york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO

Ok. thank you. i will tinker around and try to find best height.



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5
reply to york

said by york:

would this be a good table that would be about right. »www.connect802.com/height.htm

No...it's terrible. It's based on the same old myths of propagation. Specifically the Fresnel Zone incompleteness.


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5
reply to york

You really, really need to learn to use Radio Mobile.


york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO

done a search is this the radio mobile you are talking about? cplus.org/rmw/english1.html


bburley

join:2010-04-30
Cold Lake, AB
reply to york

said by york:

with a small 14db superpass

I think that is a very poor choice. A more professional antenna will make a big difference.

Try this one;

»www.fab-corp.com/product.php?pro···0&page=1


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5
reply to york

Yes, cplus.org/rmw/english1.html


york

join:2013-12-27
Gallatin, MO

is there any reason that they dont support the 2.4,5.8 frequencys



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

Those are just pre-made examples. You can build your own Systems and Networks for anything you want.