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eweazel
join:2008-12-09
Etobicoke, ON

eweazel

Member

Minimum wage increasing to 11.00 per hour Ontario

The Ontario Government is increasing minimum wage to 11.00 per hour. But some people are demanding 14-15 per hour. I am all for increasing minimum wage, but simple economics states that when income goes up so do prices, so those on the poverty line making 10 and hour today by raising it to 15 per hour, will increase the costs of everything by that much, and to me it might even have the reverse effect, as the prices go up so too will the amount of people who cant afford it. Its a double edged sword.

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

LazMan

Premium Member

Here's a thought for discussion:

I'm all for cost of living adjustments... But COLA should be applied across the board.

I make a decent living, but I haven't gotten raises anywhere near inflation the last 5 years (including 3 years with no raise at all).

Why should my buying power (and in effect, my wage) be allowed to go down, just because I don't have a minimum-wage job?

eweazel
join:2008-12-09
Etobicoke, ON

eweazel

Member

Exactly, and what happens to those who were making 12-14 an hour, not minimum wage but just above. Now they look like their years of service don't matter, when someone comes off the street and will make as must as them. Sure you can say increase them too, but its just not possible sometimes. To me it just means less people will be hired.

To add more to this point, I work in a Retail/Manufacturing. Last year we took a loss, but this year with some cuts to purchasing we were hoping to break even to keep the current personnel. I really don't want to cut payroll, we can absorb 11.00 per hour, but the problem is we give raises every year, say .25 per hour for new hires and there are always bonuses during the year, we have people making quite a bit. My problem now comes to the people who have been working here for 3 years and are making 11.00 per hour like everyone else who started.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot to LazMan

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to LazMan
said by LazMan:

I make a decent living, but I haven't gotten raises anywhere near inflation the last 5 years (including 3 years with no raise at all).

Yea, back in the olde days it was a common Ontario business practice to provide incremental raises to employees of companies whose job roles haven't changed in some time, inline with medium wage increases.

However things changed in the early 90's, allegedly triggered by an increase in payroll taxes and a sharp increase in minimum wage which lead to a decrease in employment and a decrease in wages for non-minimum earners, and furthermore impeded minimum earners from making more.

The practice returned in the late 90's, people started receiving wage increases, etc., but I believe that started declining prior to the economic crash in '08.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned) to LazMan

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to LazMan
said by LazMan:

Why should my buying power (and in effect, my wage) be allowed to go down, just because I don't have a minimum-wage job?

Because at your wage you can still heat your house and have enough to eat for example and are not as vulnerable to inflation as someone at minimum wage.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot

Premium Member

How do you heat your homes in peterboro? I'm guessing the residents regularly engage in fine dining.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

Member

Some on minimum wage can't adequately heat their homes and never engage in fine dining.

Your point?

koira
Hey Siri Walk Me
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join:2004-02-16

koira to eweazel

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to eweazel
said by eweazel:

My problem now comes to the people who have been working here for 3 years and are making 11.00 per hour like everyone else who started.

One option is you tell senior employees is sorry, I can't give you a raise. This hike was legislated. Explain your companies delecate balance and need to maintain costs otherwise you have to lay some off.
Back in the 70's there was an Anti Inflation Board policy. Company where I worked could't give a raise , it was a loosing proposition. So I moved on to another position at a large manufacturing corp and it was a fork in the road to sucess. Inflation was high but so were interest rates returns for savings and bonds. It was a good time to have money invested but bad for mortgages and other loans.

A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium Member
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N

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said by peterboro:

Because at your wage you can still heat your house and have enough to eat for example and are not as vulnerable to inflation as someone at minimum wage.

Not so simple though. Higher wage earners are expected to be able to feed money back into the economy. The more you degrade the buying power of the middle class the less they purchase. That in itself causes problems.

A large jump (say $3/hr) creates problems as someone said above. How many people making that new wage would also expect an increase? eweasel even made a good point, what about the people who started at minimum a while ago and will now be making the same as a new hire?

Change the minimum wage to $13 or $14 and you would bankrupt a number of companies (as those making around that number would also want more).
A Lurker

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said by koira:

One option is you tell senior employees is sorry, I can't give you a raise. This hike was legislated. Explain your companies delecate balance and need to maintain costs otherwise you have to lay some off.

The catch is now you have a bunch of experienced employees making the same as new hires. They'll be disgruntled, wondering why they worked so hard, and why they should help someone new making the same amount. It's likely the store will have to give at least some a raise and either cut hours or not hire the next time they need someone.

I'm not saying the minimum wage shouldn't be raised, but it's not a simple thing. It should have been a number that moved every year, not just when they get around to it.

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

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i think finding ways of getting workers to make more money is better than simply giving everyone at the bottom more money for nothing...perhaps training programs, or something...i don't pretend to have the answers, but i don't think raising minimum wage really does anything other than pander to voters.

i think some businesses that have many low wage employees may have to let some go...if they have a budget for staff of $5000/month, and you increase that budget by 25-30%, you will likely see some employees let go...in this case, the raise to $11 isn't 25% of course, but for the ones proposing to go to $15/hr for example.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

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said by peterboro:

Some on minimum wage can't adequately heat their homes and never engage in fine dining.

Then perhaps they should re-prioritize and spend less money on booze or cigarettes and spend their money on heating and eating.

joeblow3
join:2000-12-27
h0h0h0

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to eweazel
So where is the official link to this minimum raise increase?
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

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said by urbanriot:

said by peterboro:

Some on minimum wage can't adequately heat their homes and never engage in fine dining.

Then perhaps they should re-prioritize and spend less money on booze or cigarettes and spend their money on heating and eating.

Who says they are spending money on booze or cigarettes?

AppleGuy
Premium Member
join:2013-09-08
Kitchener, ON

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said by peterboro:

said by LazMan:

Why should my buying power (and in effect, my wage) be allowed to go down, just because I don't have a minimum-wage job?

Because at your wage you can still heat your house and have enough to eat for example and are not as vulnerable to inflation as someone at minimum wage.

Well said.

Fraser Institute had a huge article about increasing wages to something like a "living wage" and why it is 'bad'.

Examples includes higher unemployment for unskilled workers because employers will want better employee's for their positions.

Don't employers already choose the best worker?

They also claimed that a living wage doesn't help the poor because that much because 72% of people making a living wage aren't classified as 'poor'. Umm, isn't that the point?

Thing is, things have changed the past 30 years.

Minimum wage used to apply only to the very young (under 18) and those first entering the workforce. Very few places kept their employee's at or close to minimum wage.

At one time, kids could drop out of school and get a good job, either learning a trade or in a factory. With a couple years of high school you could get into nursing. With full high school you could get into an office and get a decent job. University was meant for people wanting to be doctors or lawyers or heads of huge companies. You would also go to special schools in if you wanted to get into acting or into the arts or broadcasting.

Still, minimum wage in disgustingly low in many places, especially the USA. They will always say that increases are bad because your StarBucks will cost an extra dime, and what not. But poverty costs our countries way more money than the extra 15 cents on a McDonalds Happy Meal.

koira
Hey Siri Walk Me
Premium Member
join:2004-02-16

koira to A Lurker

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Agreed Lurker, freezing the minimum for so long has created a new problem now that it's increased. There will be lots of upset earners in the bracket just above min, it will create animosity but they have to stay and get over it or move to another employer. Change is good. The job market is stagnent , maybe this will stir things up a bit.

A little off topic but I would like to see these recruter firms that are on the take of a percentage of wages , in the middle of a hire process . Recruiters for contract positions are vultures. Get rid of them and anyone working through them gets an instant raise transparent to the actual end employer.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

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said by peterboro:

said by urbanriot:

said by peterboro:

Some on minimum wage can't adequately heat their homes and never engage in fine dining.

Then perhaps they should re-prioritize and spend less money on booze or cigarettes and spend their money on heating and eating.

Who says they are spending money on booze or cigarettes?

Where else would their money be going?

If the cost of heating is legitimately unsustainable in Peterborough, they should be moving to an area where it's sustainable.

Do you know what the living wage is in Peterborough?

A single person could live in St. Catharines on less than minimum wage. A family of four could live in Niagara Falls on minimum wage.

AppleGuy
Premium Member
join:2013-09-08
Kitchener, ON

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In a perfect world, everyone could get proper training for higher paying jobs, but no one is there to pay for jobs that don't exist. Besides, many minimum wage jobs today weren't minimum wages jobs 30 years ago.

I know of a cookie factory where the workers were making $15/hour back in 1990. Now these workers are making $10.50/hour 22 years later. I also was talking to a fella who is (or was) into flooring, he hasn't seen a wage increase in 25 years.

There is no value in hard work. The only value is if you have some letters at the end of your name, regardless whether or not you know what you're doing. Even then, people that have letters and that have a physical job (I'm thinking dentistry) haven't seen an increase in about 10 years. (yes, they're getting paid more, but it's all eating up by costs)

Problem is that executives are large companies and their underlings have had major pay raises well above COLA, and not tied to performance at all, and this takes away from the bottom line, which is taken away from the lower paid workers.

Back in the 1970's, the average executive pay was 4 times than of the average factory worker. Today, it's 50 times. So that's where the problem lies.

Our system is broken.

Raptor
Not a Dumptruck
join:2001-10-21
London, ON

Raptor

Member

said by AppleGuy:

Back in the 1970's, the average executive pay was 4 times than of the average factory worker. Today, it's 50 times. So that's where the problem lies.

Our system is broken.

If we forget that, then it's a race to the bottom between all us peons as one of us always has a little something the other has and we're all to quick to want to take it away.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

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said by urbanriot:

Where else would their money be going?

Rent, food, insurance, transportation, clothes and a hundred other necessities a family needs. Unless you are suggesting those on minimum wage don’t deserve these and we should re-introduce poor houses from the 1800s.
said by urbanriot:

If the cost of heating is legitimately unsustainable in Peterborough, they should be moving to an area where it's sustainable.

While we are at it why don’t we move the whole northern portion of Canada to warmer climates where heat is cheaper.

Or…raise their minimum wage so they can afford heat.
said by urbanriot:

Do you know what the living wage is in Peterborough?

No.
said by urbanriot:

A single person could live in St. Catharines on less than minimum wage. A family of four could live in Niagara Falls on minimum wage.

That’s debateable because in your elitist interpretation of living they don’t deserve heat. Define what constitutes “living” in your world view.

Is it living in a cardboard box having people like you throwing them scraps of food as you walk by?

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

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said by AppleGuy:

I know of a cookie factory where the workers were making $15/hour back in 1990. Now these workers are making $10.50/hour 22 years later. I also was talking to a fella who is (or was) into flooring, he hasn't seen a wage increase in 25 years.

i know of many of these types of jobs, that no longer exist...i mean, a cookie factory that employs actual people on production...those types of jobs have been replaced by automation in pretty much every company, so the fact there are still ANY people there doing that is surprising.

times have changed over the years...adapt...find something you like, something in demand, and go for it.

one of my co-workers is about to graduate from Teacher's College...while that is a good job, it is tough to get a teaching job in London...she has an opportunity to go to Whitehorse...i mentioned to my colleague that would be a great opportunity to get experience...perhaps in 5 years, an opportunity may open up down here, or somewhere else she may prefer, or perhaps she really likes it up there and she stays there...the point is, don't sit here, work at Tim Horton's and complain about things...you make your opportunities in this world.
dirtyjeffer0

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said by peterboro:

That’s debateable because in your elitist interpretation of living they don’t deserve heat. Define what constitutes “living” in your world view.

Is it living in a cardboard box having people like you throwing them scraps of food as you walk by?

i was speaking with a coworker who grew up in the USSR when he was younger...they had an interesting concept...the apartment building was owned by the state...there were people employed by the state to maintain it (lawns, snow removal, building maintenance, etc)...people who lived in them didn't pay "rent", it was simply provided to them...people who lived in them did have to pay for services inside the unit, like TV, phone, etc.

i don't know all the in and outs of how it was funded, but it seemed like an interesting concept..."Here is a place to live, don't worry about rent, now go out and work"...i know we have subsidized housing complexes, etc, but they just don't seem to work well here.

eweazel
join:2008-12-09
Etobicoke, ON

eweazel to dirtyjeffer0

Member

to dirtyjeffer0
We had a woman working here making minimum wage selling shoes. She kept saying how she had a Degree and all we paid her was minimum wage. So I finally asked her what degree she had, she had it in fine arts. Well we are retail, her degree means nothing to us.
eweazel

eweazel

Member

Now there is another employee who said she wanted to get ahead in life, she is 26. I decided to teach her a bit more, let her have other chances, I taught her online sales, I was even training her in the accounting aspects. The problem is she calls in sick once or twice a week. I am trying to give her hours, trying to better herself, and she is not taking advantage of it.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

1 recommendation

Guspaz to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

i was speaking with a coworker who grew up in the USSR when he was younger...they had an interesting concept...the apartment building was owned by the state...there were people employed by the state to maintain it (lawns, snow removal, building maintenance, etc)...people who lived in them didn't pay "rent", it was simply provided to them...people who lived in them did have to pay for services inside the unit, like TV, phone, etc.

i don't know all the in and outs of how it was funded, but it seemed like an interesting concept..."Here is a place to live, don't worry about rent, now go out and work"...i know we have subsidized housing complexes, etc, but they just don't seem to work well here.

It's called communism. It wasn't "funded", it was a planned economy. (Not sure if you're trolling or stupid).

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

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said by peterboro:

said by urbanriot:

Where else would their money be going?

Rent, food, insurance, transportation, clothes and a hundred other necessities a family needs. Unless you are suggesting those on minimum wage don’t deserve these and we should re-introduce poor houses from the 1800s.

No, they certainly deserve to purchase whatever they can afford, which should be all of those things and a little more with a full time minimum wage job.

If someone lives in an area where they can't afford those items, they should move to an area where they can. Moving to the right area can certainly eliminate reoccurring transportation costs and completely eliminate car insurance needs.
said by peterboro:

That’s debateable because in your elitist interpretation of living they don’t deserve heat.

Wrong. I don't have this 'elitist interpretation', I have a 'real life interpretation based on real life experiences' where I earned far less than minimum wage and was typically happy throughout this experience.
said by peterboro:

Is it living in a cardboard box having people like you throwing them scraps of food as you walk by?

Your extremely gross exaggerations are not at all productive in encouraging people to consider your points.

You provide no dollar values yet state it's impossible to live on minimum wage. Why don't you list the actual costs of living in Peterborough and the take-home pay of minimum wage? Maybe we'll learn a thing or two...?

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

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said by peterboro:

Because at your wage you can still heat your house and have enough to eat for example and are not as vulnerable to inflation as someone at minimum wage.

As I said off the top, I do ok... But it's an ongoing erosion of the middle class.

The top's doing fine - raises, bonuses, etc, etc; the bottom is getting some help...

But the middle is left to stagnate; and to get by; shrinking every day, as the bottom rises, and incorporates more and more of who the middle used to be... Racing to the bottom is no way to get ahead.

A healthy middle class should be an important driver in an economy - the bottom needs to have enough, no argument - heat, food, shelter - but minimum wage earners, by their very definition, don't have disposable income. It's the middle class that buys 'stuff', goes places, and does things... That discretionary spending is critical to growth.

I don't pretend to have any answers - just talking out loud here... Raising minimum wage with inflation isn't a bad thing; but it's not the only step required, either...

AppleGuy
Premium Member
join:2013-09-08
Kitchener, ON

AppleGuy to Guspaz

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It was communism but it wasn't full communism, and full communism has never been created. It would never work unless the whole world did it.

My friend used to go over to the USSR quite a bit to do work for his organization, one thing he always said, take toilet paper with you.

There was still income variations for people. You had government officials (rich) and citizens (poor). They did have housing, but it was nothing to write home about. This is why USSR communism never worked.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

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said by dirtyjeffer0:

the apartment building was owned by the state...there were people employed by the state to maintain it (lawns, snow removal, building maintenance, etc)...

Prior to state ownership, it was more than likely owned by a private entity prior to being co-opted by the state. Just like the state took over businesses and ran many of them into the ground.
said by dirtyjeffer0:

i don't know all the in and outs of how it was funded

It was funded on the backs of slaves, the citizens of the USSR.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

said by urbanriot:

said by dirtyjeffer0:

the apartment building was owned by the state...there were people employed by the state to maintain it (lawns, snow removal, building maintenance, etc)...

Prior to state ownership, it was more than likely owned by a private entity prior to being co-opted by the state. Just like the state took over businesses and ran many of them into the ground.
said by dirtyjeffer0:

i don't know all the in and outs of how it was funded

It was funded on the backs of slaves, the citizens of the USSR.

yea, i realize it was communism, but wasn't sure about all its details (i didn't have a 4 hour discussion with this guy, who is from Georgia)...as well, the collapse of the Soviet Union is certainly an example of it "not working" either...just thought it was weird to have housing "given" to you (although, you don't own it) and don't pay rent or anything...seemed odd...one thing he did say was many of the units were pretty poorly kept, since the people living there didn't own it, they didn't give a shit about doing anything to keep them nice.