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Thinkdiff
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-07
Bronx, NY
kudos:11

1 recommendation

reply to Shady Bimmer

[Pricing] Re: Here comes the Router rental fee of $4.99

said by Shady Bimmer:

If the port forwards had already been established on an actiontec then yes. For remote services that are unique per STB such as remote DVR those ports are not known until the service is initially enabled,

I don't believe this is entirely true. The role of the Actiontec is two-fold. It does open various ports, as you mentioned, but once these are known (they're sequential), you can replicate them on any third party router.

The second part is that the Actiontec communicates back to Verizon what your public IP address is. When you use Remote DVR online, it pulls from that database and then tries to make the connection. This why the three-router setup does work with Remote DVR. In that configuration, the Actiontec is used for the sole purpose of communicating the public IP address back to Verizon. All port forwarding is handled by the third-part primary router.

Seems to me there should be a better (non-Actiontec) way for VZ to implement Remote DVR / Caller ID. I would hope they have a method of tracking what IP addresses are assigned to the CPE behind each ONT. Maybe they don't...
--
University of Southern California - Fight On!


sivran
Opera ex-pat
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1
reply to CGMason14

Six months.



SoCalDude

join:2008-07-30
Ventura Co.
reply to elefante72

Hope they'll let us purchase our own.



bohratom
Jersey Shore is back again.

join:2011-07-07
Red Bank NJ

said by SoCalDude:

Hope they'll let us purchase our own.

They have too as they currently are selling Rev I versions for $99. It would just cause mass havoc if they suddenly told people that their purchased router is worthless...

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
reply to sivran

The ONLY MoCA WAN adapter is the Actiontec Verizon version, so if you have MoCA WAN you are stuck. I recommend to anyone signing up for FiOS demand to be provisioned via ethernet like I did (thanks to DSL). To be fair, it may always not be practical depending upon where your ONT is located and your AT, but you can always complain...

I work w/ a lot of local businesses and Verizon by default almost always provisions ethernet from the ONT (what does that tell you). They also use a different ONT w/ an offboard battery to keep voice going for days.



sivran
Opera ex-pat
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1

D-Link DXN 220s can be had on Amazon and fleabay.
--
Oh, Opera, what have you done?


elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

It's not a device that Verizon would support if they go to a paid lease model. I did enquire about 3rd party router in the past, and the company line was verizon supplied and supported Verizon-actiontec only.

Look at the restrictive list that TWC put out when they jacked their modem fees.

I would caution picking these up in anticipation of a paid model, just sayin'. You can get used AT VZ routers pretty cheap, so I think this would be a risky purchase and support is key to your own equipment.



Thinkdiff
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-07
Bronx, NY
kudos:11

Huh? Verizon doesn't "support" third party Ethernet routers either so I don't really see much of a difference between MoCA adapter + third party router or Ethernet + third party router. Both configurations are technically unsupported.
--
University of Southern California - Fight On!


Shady Bimmer
Premium
join:2001-12-03
Northport, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Thinkdiff

said by Thinkdiff:

I don't believe this is entirely true. The role of the Actiontec is two-fold. It does open various ports, as you mentioned, but once these are known (they're sequential), you can replicate them on any third party router.

I referenced the ability to replicate these easily. However the specific port to which VZ needs to connect differs depending on which STB/DVR is the target. This mapping is not known until VZ creates the initial establishment. And while they may be sequential, they are not always predictable. For instance I had a single DVR and it was not at the documented starting port (it was one higher) for quite some time. Once this mapping is established it is not specifically required for this purpose, until your IP changes (see below).

The second part is that the Actiontec communicates back to Verizon what your public IP address is. When you use Remote DVR online, it pulls from that database and then tries to make the connection.

Yes, this would be part of the initial setup and as long as your IP does not change then there is no need to report the IP back to VZ. This is (as you noted) the reason for the three-router configuration so that one does not need to keep swapping routers.

From the best I have been able to determine so far it is the STB/DVR that is reporting its internal and external IPs along with the internal port that it is listening on for each service. If VZ sees a change it reaches out to the actiontec at that external IP and ensures there is a port forward to reach the internal port at the internal IP. The STB/DVR determines its external IP from interaction with the actiontec but I have not identified how this occurrs yet. The three router solution is working well for me so this is not a priority at the moment.

As I noted in my original reply, as well, if nobody has demonstrated and provided a configuration for remote services such as remote DVR to work without the actiontec there is no reason to assume it should. My points were mostly to highlight that the actiontec is needed at least for the initial setup and that without it success should not be expected. Beyond that, there are too many unknowns to know if the AT can be fully removed while keeping full remote services functionality. To date it does not look possible.

Shady Bimmer
Premium
join:2001-12-03
Northport, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Thinkdiff

said by Thinkdiff:

Seems to me there should be a better (non-Actiontec) way for VZ to implement Remote DVR / Caller ID. I would hope they have a method of tracking what IP addresses are assigned to the CPE behind each ONT. Maybe they don't...

The part that I try to keep in perspective is that many here that are looking to deviate from the default provided by VZ are actually in the minority compared to the entire FiOS customer base.

The solution is such that a very large number of standard installs can be fully managed and maintained remotely using minimal support (read: human) resources.

Adding complexity to suit the minority is contrary to that goal and what VZ provides suits exactly what they need. Further automation such as the "auto correct" functionality in the IMG menus depends on at least a certain minimal known configuration.

I would note that choosing the auto-correct functions does seem to re-initiate the entire configuration process from the beginning.

Note that the TR-069 spec does have extensions to allow for better discovery when behind NAT (IE: the AT could be behind another NAT router and the external IP of that router could be discovered instead), but since the AT is meant to be the external device as the CPE there is no reason VZ would necessarily consider implementing this (again - minority of customers would use it).

Depending on the actual pricing policy that started this thread, there may be more that look to altogether forfeit the AT. However like many other cases likely there will be a few customers that leave and the rest will just complain and bear it.

swope1221

join:2008-08-26
Newtown, PA
reply to elefante72

Do we know if they are going to start charging this of current users or just new installs? I ask because I have my original Rev D, but use my Rev I I bought off ebay. Are they going to let us return an unused router and not be charged $4.99 / month?



Thinkdiff
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-07
Bronx, NY
kudos:11
reply to Shady Bimmer

My point was only that their Remote DVR system seems very "finicky" for lack of a better word. It is already complex and relies on so many moving parts.

Seems like the entire problem could be solved just by making the STB do a UPnP request and push that information to a database server which would then know both the WAN IP and port number from that single request. Then the Remote DVR / Caller ID systems could pull the relevant info from there. Using this hodgepodge of TR-069 with two-way communication and call-backs and pushing port forwarding rules, etc seems like a waste. The cynical view would be it's deliberate to get people to use the Actiontec, but I'm not so sure.
--
University of Southern California - Fight On!


guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
reply to ITALIAN926

eBay has lots of options, including used Actiontech and Westel routers, last one I bought cost 9 bucks. One can use any router they want and any Bridge they want for the Ethernet to MOCA part to feed the STB's



More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:29
reply to elefante72

said by elefante72:

The ONLY MoCA WAN adapter is the Actiontec Verizon version,

Actiontec makes MOCA LAN adapters, but does NOT make a MOCA WAN adapter, unless you're counting the MI424-WR as a MOCA WAN adapter.
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.


sivran
Opera ex-pat
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1
reply to elefante72

said by elefante72:

It's not a device that Verizon would support if they go to a paid lease model. I did enquire about 3rd party router in the past, and the company line was verizon supplied and supported Verizon-actiontec only.

Look at the restrictive list that TWC put out when they jacked their modem fees.

I would caution picking these up in anticipation of a paid model, just sayin'. You can get used AT VZ routers pretty cheap, so I think this would be a risky purchase and support is key to your own equipment.

I don't particularly care if their phone reps have my device (whatever I may get) on their list, so long as it actually works. My goal is to free myself from the Actiontec router, which I dislike. Nabbing one off ebay would not be a very good way to go about that. I don't (or rather, very soon won't) have any STBs to support, either, so I don't need it for that.

This news of a potential rental fee for a router I don't even like is just one more reason for me to hurry up and do something about it, be it run the ethernet myself (yeah, right, attic access is difficult through there), upgrade to a high enough tier that Verizon does it for me (probably too expensive), or purchase a MOCA WAN adapter.
--
Oh, Opera, what have you done?

BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to Thinkdiff

Hmmmm, sounds like they are running their own little proprietary version of DynDNS. That's pretty nasty. They should just make it standardized so that users could use their own router. The problem is that even with that option, 99% of users would have no clue how to set it up. And even then, the users advanced enough to figure it out are using TiVos in the first place. Can you get all the VOD through the web or Roku apps now, or do you still need a box for that?


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to More Fiber

Can't you set up a MOCA LAN adapter to work as a MOCA WAN adapter by changing the channel to whatever the ONT uses?


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to Thinkdiff

They should also enable Ethernet so that you could run the data portion entirely over Ethernet without MoCA at all.



More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:29
reply to BiggA

said by BiggA:

Can't you set up a MOCA LAN adapter to work as a MOCA WAN adapter by changing the channel

No.

MOCA WAN uses channel C4. MOCA LAN adapters (except the D-Link AND Netgear mentioned earlier) support only channels D1-D8.
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.

JohnUSA

join:2009-03-01
USA

2 edits
reply to elefante72

My recommendation is to buy your own modem as this will save you money in the long run. I am presently a Comcast customer, and this super greedy and despicable company has the audacity to charge $8 modem rental fee per month, which comes to $96 per year. I bought the best cable modem model for just $80 and now I save money instead of making evil Comcast and the big evil crook Comcast CEO Brian Roberts richer. Another big advantage by getting your own modem is that you get a good quality hardware instead of the old, lousy and cheap stuff they rent you.
Be smart, do it today.



More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:29

said by JohnUSA:

My recommendation is to buy your own modem

FIOS does use modems except in certain MDU installations.
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.


KA3SGM
- -... ...- -
Premium
join:2006-01-17
West Chester, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Cricket Broadband
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to CGMason14

I have a pile of Fios routers, including a Dlink VDI-604 and VDI-624, and probably 6 variants of the MI424WR, A, C, D, and F, and including 2 of the Rev. I units..

NONE of them belong to Verizon, especially the Rev. I's that I specifically PURCHASED from Verizon, and I have the receipts to prove it..

This new fee certainly has to be reserved for new customers ONLY, and they better have asset tags and recorded serial numbers on the ones they rent out.

If they can't give me the unit serial number of something they claim is theirs, there is no way I'm going to be forced into paying rent on something that belongs to me.
--
ROCK 'TIL SUNSET


swope1221

join:2008-08-26
Newtown, PA

This was my question that got buried above, I bought a rev I from eBay and the original rev D I got at install . If they want the original back no problem but I'm not paying a rental fee on the one I bought. It's gotta be new customers only.


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to More Fiber

Interesting. I didn't know that. It's in the FAQ, so I guess I didn't read it very well!


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to JohnUSA

As discussed above, it's not that simple because of the DVR configuration, MoCA vs. Ethernet, etc. I own all my own equipment with Comcast, and I would do the same if I moved over to FIOSland (Rhode Island is 15 minutes from me), but it's not as simple as it is with Comcast.



KA3SGM
- -... ...- -
Premium
join:2006-01-17
West Chester, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Cricket Broadband
·Verizon FiOS
reply to swope1221

said by swope1221:

I bought a rev I from eBay and the original rev D I got at install . If they want the original back no problem but I'm not paying a rental fee on the one I bought.

That opens up a bees nest.

How is Verizon going to control what people are buying and selling on ebay??

It's not like the stolen Fios cable boxes that can't be activated that you see being sold online, the routers don't need activation, and nothing prevents somebody from selling a VZ owned router to someone else.

You could easily end up buying a router on ebay, that is actually one of the rental units.

The seller would still be on the hook for the rental charges, or paying for the router that wasn't returned, but VZ will still have a record of it, and you don't want to get caught with something that they suddenly decide to call stolen property.

They'll have to come up with a distinct physical difference, and/or a model number distinction between the rented units, to separate them from the owned ones.
--
ROCK 'TIL SUNSET

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1

They have the MAC address, thats all Verizon needs



KA3SGM
- -... ...- -
Premium
join:2006-01-17
West Chester, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Cricket Broadband
·Verizon FiOS

The MAC, which can very easily be SPOOFED....

I have a REV. F set up with the CLONED MAC of one of my Rev. I routers, static and dynamic routing manually cloned between the 2, WiFi channel, key, etc...
It's a ready-to-go spare, to drop in place if I have a router failure, and can't go in and Release/Renew the IP from the original routers MAC..
It would be like it never even happened.
--
ROCK 'TIL SUNSET



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to elefante72

The terms of service have changed. Where there was a distinction of router ownership based on start of service, there is now only one posted TOS with revision date Jan.2014. I think text marked in bold is revised, I'm not certain.

TOS states equipment is to be returned as directed by VZ. This is consistent with past language. There is no distinction on type of equipment or value of equipment, where previous verions of TOS spelled out these details.

VZ must have gotten new lawyers. TOS are subject to change and it's the subscriber's responsibility to periodically review and if you don't like it you still have to pay the ETF if you cancel because you don't agree with new terms.

Then there's the "reasonable man" concept of understanding what all the legalese means and if you have a dispute with VZ over the terms of service, you're forced to arbitration or mediation, so forget lawsuit unless you really want to pay for a high class lawyer up against the best lawyers VZ subscriber fees can buy.

We're the phone company. We don't care; we don't have to. -- Lily Tomlin, as Ernestine



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to elefante72

Wondering if this is a regional thing, or for entire FiOS footprint. I'll have to keep my eye open for adverts.