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Mango
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[Electrical] Wired a panel for the first time.

Click for full size
I know you guys are merciless. How bad did I screw this all up?


Killa200
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Top circuit with the bare neutral a knob and tube circuit? How did it look going up the wall past where it fed into the panel?

What wire size is that Aluminum service wire feeding the 100 amp breaker?

Not familiar with that service setup on the panel. It looks like there is no means to tie down the service breaker, no dedicated service breaker spot, nor lugs for it to be a MLO panel. Would expect a means to permanently hold down the main breaker with the cover off, either by a hold down tab or bolt in breaker to replace the lugs in a lug panel.


John Galt
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reply to Mango
- Nicked conductors on the feeder

- Two conductors under one screw

- No bare conductor seen on neutrals landed on neutral bar

- Multiple cables in one panel connector
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Many believe, but few will question...I decline to be blind.


Mango
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Thanks for the replies!

Top circuit is not a knob and tube circuit. The cable does have sheathing which you can kind of see at the top of the photo. I plan to replace that in the spring (need to dig a trench so have to wait for snow to melt).

Not sure if this answers your question about tying down the service breaker but there is a disconnect at the meter.

I forgot to say I didn't do the feeder myself. That was done by a pro. I'm sorry I'm not sure what the wire size is as it's not written there (at least not where it's currently visible).

said by John Galt:

- Two conductors under one screw

Looks like there is some slack in that cable above the panel so I can hopefully improve upon that. On that topic, why are there so few screws for ground? How do I connect additional ground wires if I add more circuits?

said by John Galt:

- No bare conductor seen on neutrals landed on neutral bar

It's not in the photo but it can be seen. Is that sufficient or should there be a more generous amount?

said by John Galt:

- Multiple cables in one panel connector

Those connectors are rated for two 14/2 cables; is that still not okay?


John Galt
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- Add another ground bar if necessary

- There should be enough to be seen...so you're good there

- If the connectors are listed for multiple cables, then you're golden

All in all, not bad for a first-timer...
--
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Mango
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said by John Galt:

All in all, not bad for a first-timer...

Cheers. I hope the inspector thinks the same!


LazMan
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join:2003-03-26
canada
said by Mango:

Cheers. I hope the inspector thinks the same!

It's clean, but there's potential for a few issues...

Is this a main panel, or a sub?

Guessing a sub, as the neutral-ground bond is removed and there's dedicated ground. If it is, then there doesn't need to be a separation between the service breaker and load breakers, but the breaker does need to be rated for backfeeding, and have a retaining clip installed. Check out P# BREQS125 or BRHDK125, depending on what panel you have installed. I think you'd need the first one...

If this is the service panel, then it's not the right panel, as there must be a divider between the service breaker, and the load breakers; and load conductors aren't allowed to pass through the service area.

I'm not a fan of flush-mounts, but that's personal preference... How's it secured, and what's behind it?

Looks good, overall, like that you've kept the wiring troughs clear, and not wadded tons of wire up into them...

Expect the inspector to bust on you a bit, but I don't see too much for him to complain about.

Mango
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said by LazMan:

there must be a divider between the service breaker, and the load breakers; and load conductors aren't allowed to pass through the service area.

Interesting. It is the service panel. It was already inspected in 2011 when the panel was installed and the inspector then didn't say a word about it. There will be a new inspector this time so it'll be interesting to see if he says differently.

said by LazMan:

I'm not a fan of flush-mounts, but that's personal preference... How's it secured, and what's behind it?

Neither am I, now that I've worked with it a bit. It's screwed into studs and there is drywall on the other side.


mackey
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reply to Mango
Kinda hard to tell from the photo, but it doesn't look like there's any no-ox on those aluminum wires, esp. the ground one.

/M


LazMan
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reply to Mango
I'm thinking there's a fused disconnect or breaker upstream... The separated neutral/ground conductors, and not being a main disconnect panel would be very unusual...

Mango
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said by LazMan:

I'm thinking there's a fused disconnect or breaker upstream...

Good guess; there is in fact a breaker at the meter. In that case, would that breaker be known as the service panel instead?


LazMan
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The breaker at the meter would be considered the 'service entrance' - this is basically a sub panel off that main breaker.

Still should have a retaining clip on the breaker, though.


nunya
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reply to Mango
I'm not crazy about those cable clamps. That must be some sort of Canadian thing.

The bare neutral should be insulated until it hits the bus.

I can't tell if those conductors are aluminum or tinned copper. If AL, they need to be cleaned and dressed with oxide inhibitor.

While it's true you cannot double lug on neutrals, you can on grounds. I believe those particular Eaton ground bars are rated for 2 or 3 #14 solid per terminal.

The backfeed breaker needs to be secured. See the little hole in the breaker? That's what that is for. The also make a clip kit. Google "BR hold down kit".

Otherwise, it looks like a total piece of fuck! J/K - I think it looks good.
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Mango
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Out of curiosity what cable clamps do you use?

said by nunya:

Google "BR hold down kit".

Thanks; so I insert this whenever I need to work on the panel so I don't accidentally turn it on?

said by nunya:

Otherwise, it looks like a total piece of fuck! J/K - I think it looks good.

lol! Thanks.


nunya
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said by Mango:

Thanks; so I insert this whenever I need to work on the panel so I don't accidentally turn it on?

No. It keep the breaker from sliding off the stabs. It would probably never happen, but it's required on the backfeed breaker (Here in the US. Probably the same in Canada).

For romex entry clamps I use plain jane's (841) or Arlington NM74.
--
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Jack_in_VA
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What's to keep any breaker from "slipping" off the stabs? That's why for only a few dollars more buy and install a bolt in breaker panel. Eliminate a potential problem.

Mango
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said by nunya:

No. It keep the breaker from sliding off the stabs.

Thank you for being kind to my utter misunderstanding of what you were suggesting.

said by Jack_in_VA:

What's to keep any breaker from "slipping" off the stabs?

When there are two breakers side by side, they are much more secure - perhaps that helps?


Jack_in_VA
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The backfed breaker is no more prone to "slide" off than any other double pole breaker.


Jack_in_VA
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reply to Mango
said by Mango:

Out of curiosity what cable clamps do you use?

said by nunya:

Google "BR hold down kit".

Thanks; so I insert this whenever I need to work on the panel so I don't accidentally turn it on?

said by nunya:

Otherwise, it looks like a total piece of fuck! J/K - I think it looks good.

lol! Thanks.

Your panel looks really good. You did good.


LazMan
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reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

The backfed breaker is no more prone to "slide" off than any other double pole breaker.

Maybe not - but the manufacturer says a retaining clip is required for back-feed applications.

Therefore, a retaining clip is required...


Pow Boom

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reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

The backfed breaker is no more prone to "slide" off than any other double pole breaker.

If a branch circuit breaker slides off, it's dead whereas a backfed breaker can and probably will be hot. I've seen the mess it makes when a backfed 100A Cutler-Hammer type CH breaker without the proper hold-down strap slides off.


Jack_in_VA
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And what did it do. Unless the stabs ground to metal the breaker will just swing free. The breaker panel cover should hold all the breakers in tight not allowing the stabs to raise up off the buss

I have the push on breaker panel but "if" I ever change it out which I might have to it will be replaced with bolt on type breakers. No c stabs to loosen up over time. However they are held tight on the buss by the breaker cover.


John Galt
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reply to Mango
NEC 408.16 Overcurrent Protection:

(F) Back-Fed Devices. Plug-in-type overcurrent protection devices or plug-in type-main lug assemblies that are backfed and used to terminate field-installed ungrounded supply conductors shall be secured in place by an additional fastener that requires other than a pull to release the device from the mounting means on the panel.


LazMan
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OP is shown as being in Alberta, Canada; so is under the CEC...

I'm not sure if there's an expressed requirement for back fed breakers to be retained within the code; but devices must be installed as designed, and Eaton says a retaining clip is required for back-feed applications; so end result is exactly the same...


mattmag
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Guys, now really..... If you all said it didn't need to be retained Jack_in_VA See Profile would insist it had to be retained....


Pow Boom

@mycingular.net
reply to Jack_in_VA
The reasonably experienced homeowner was installing an additional circuit. In the process, he moved the #2 feeders in order to access the connector locknut. When he pushed the feeders back toward their original location, he unknowingly dislodged the breaker. When he went to pull the cable through the connector, the breaker fully disengaged and slid back to the point where the exposed buss stabs on the type CH breaker made contact with the metal breaker retaining rail. The resulting arcing destroyed the breaker, caused enough damage to the panel to warrant replacement and landed the homeowner in the ER with facial and corneal burns. Without entering into a debate as to whether non-qualified people have any business in the panel to begin with, the proper breaker hold-down strap (as required by the NEC and the panel manufacturer when back-feeding breakers) would have prevented the entire ordeal. Of course, had the breaker been one that used enclosed slot stabs such as GE type THQL, Eaton type BR, Siemens/Murry or Square D Homeline, it probably would have been averted then too.

Mango
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Do any of the Canadians here know where I could get one of these? Home Depot, Rona, Home Hardware, and Canadian Tire don't have them, at least not that I could find online.


Jack_in_VA
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4 edits
reply to Pow Boom
said by Pow Boom :

The reasonably experienced homeowner was installing an additional circuit. In the process, he moved the #2 feeders in order to access the connector locknut. When he pushed the feeders back toward their original location, he unknowingly dislodged the breaker. When he went to pull the cable through the connector, the breaker fully disengaged and slid back to the point where the exposed buss stabs on the type CH breaker made contact with the metal breaker retaining rail. The resulting arcing destroyed the breaker, caused enough damage to the panel to warrant replacement and landed the homeowner in the ER with facial and corneal burns. Without entering into a debate as to whether non-qualified people have any business in the panel to begin with, the proper breaker hold-down strap (as required by the NEC and the panel manufacturer when back-feeding breakers) would have prevented the entire ordeal. Of course, had the breaker been one that used enclosed slot stabs such as GE type THQL, Eaton type BR, Siemens/Murry or Square D Homeline, it probably would have been averted then too.

The code calls for the restraint therefore it should be installed. No debate on that and is a non-issue.

The homeowner was by letting this happen could not be considered reasonably experienced. His panel obviously did not have the restraint on the back fed breaker and he failed to take the necessary precautions on working in the panel.

You cannot make statements like that to ignore the fact the homeowner was not qualified thus allowing the incident to happen. It's his own fault and not the equipment. It's bad he was injured but that's what happens sometimes when unqualified people work on energized electrical equipment.

Any experienced and trained electrician understands the hazards of working a panel "hot" and the added back fed breaker. All that is needed is to hold the breaker in place with a electrical gloved hand while moving the wires feeding it with the other hand. Or better yet given he was unqualified he should have just killed the power to the backfed breaker thereby killing the power to the entire panel while working on it.


LazMan
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said by Mango:

Do any of the Canadians here know where I could get one of these? Home Depot, Rona, Home Hardware, and Canadian Tire don't have them, at least not that I could find online.

Westburne would be a good starting point...

»west.westburne.ca/branchLocator.···=locator

It's not something your average weekend warrior would need; so not at all surprised a big-box store wouldn't have them; or likely even know they existed...


jjoshua
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reply to Mango
You installed it upside down.