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Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

Lurch77

Premium Member

[Appliances] Washer - Intermittently Not Draining

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My wife and I are contemplating a new machine. In the meantime the old one is giving us fits. The machine is a standard efficiency top load Whirlpool, bought sometime around 1999. I've replaced the direct drive coupler a few times over the years, and the agitator dogs recently. But otherwise it's been decent until now.

The problem is the machine will intermittently not drain. This happens about 30% or 40% of the time. We'll hear the buzzer and go to remove the clothing, only to lift the lid and find the drum still full of water. The timer will have went through it's normal cycles and will be in the off position. If we close the lid and turn the timer around to the spin position again and restart it, it will immediately start draining and spin like it should have the first time, and then continue to the end of cycle properly.

The lid switch is the usual culprit with this. But I've check the resistance of the lid switch, opening and closing the lid dozens of times, and it seems to work consistently. So I do not think that is the problem. I've not tried the machine in wash modes other than "normal".
jgriz
join:2008-12-10
Saint Charles, IL

jgriz

Member

Most likely it is an issue with worn contacts within the timer. If I remember correctly, on this model the drive motor is reversible and the pump is directly connected to the motor and pumps all the time. During the wash cycle, the motor rotates in one direction which pumps the water back to the basket. When it is time to drain, the motor reverses and it pumps the water to the drain.

The motor "on" "off" function and the direction function are controlled by the timer. The contacts in the main wash position may be worn such that the motor is running but not in the correct rotation to drain or the motor may not be running at all when it is supposed to be. When it hasn't drained, have you noticed that the motor wasn't running for a while before the end of the cycle? The motor should basically run all the dime during the wash cycle except for during the water fill period.

Beezel
join:2008-12-15
Las Vegas, NV

Beezel

Member

I don't know about it reversing, but that model does have the pump mounted directly to the drive motor. I remember that when I had one. I had to replace the coupler once.

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

Lurch77

Premium Member

I have not noticed if the motor is running when it isn't doing its thing. I always busy doing other things.

Do you guys know if the timer can be opened up to clean or repair the contacts? I am competent with that kid of stuff. I just don't want to open it up if it is going to ruin the timer (Won't go back together? Springs come flying out?). Then we'd be completely without a washer for the time being. A new timer for this machine is greater than $115. That's over 25% of what we paid for the machine when it was new.
jgriz
join:2008-12-10
Saint Charles, IL

1 edit

jgriz to Lurch77

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to Lurch77
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From the age of the washer I think it still has the metal body timer. If that is the case it will look something like this. There is a flexible metal dust shield that wraps around the timer that can just be slid off. Look at the attached pictures to see the timer with the dust shield on and off. In the picture with it off, you can see the cam cylinder and the contacts and cam followers. There is another set of contacts, just like this on the bottom of the timer as well.

If you have the other type of timer it has a black plastic case and the cams are on a disc instead of a cylinder and i don't know much about how to open it up without things flying all over the place.

You can tell if you have the metal body timer (like pictured) if you can only turn the knob in one direction and it makes sharper sounding clicking noises as the cam followers articulate along the cam. The plastic body timer can be turned in both directions and makes a more muted sound instead of sharp clicks.

Good luck.

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

Lurch77

Premium Member

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I figured what the hell, open it up, see what happens. I suspect I found the issue. I filed and cleaned the contacts. If it works better, great. If not, we'll decide how to proceed.
Lurch77

Lurch77

Premium Member

I'll call this a small win. I've ran four loads of laundry and it has worked properly so far. My wife considers this a small win, too, since my testing has me actually doing laundry.
jgriz
join:2008-12-10
Saint Charles, IL

1 recommendation

jgriz to Lurch77

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to Lurch77
Thanks for the update. I hope it keeps working for you.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k to Lurch77

Premium Member

to Lurch77
Wow, some significant carbon there. Glad you got it cleaned up and working.

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

Lurch77 to jgriz

Premium Member

to jgriz
You're welcome. It's a pet peeve in this forum when people offer advice and the OP never follows up with findings or results.

I did more research on this machine and found that it is a neutral drain unit, or something like that. The timer stops the motor before it will shift/engage/disengage gears. My wife said after the fact that she noticed opening and shutting the lid during the drain or spin cycle would make it work. From reading online, her opening the lid paused the motor and allowed the gear change. I didn't study the wire diagram, but I suspect the bad contact was the one that was supposed to do this.

Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
there

1 recommendation

Cho Baka to Lurch77

MVM

to Lurch77
Wow, that is pretty evil looking.
Props to you for getting it going, but don't expect it to last too long.

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

Lurch77

Premium Member

I don't expect it to last forever, or even like a new one would. But I have confidence it will last for a decent time. I cleaned all the carbon and filed/shaped the pitted contacts level and clean. My wife and I are still discussing buying new machines, so it may not need to last real long.

One of my hold backs is that this current machine is simple to work on. Simple mechanical switches, gears, etc, are easy to diagnose and simple to repair. The new machines with their dedicated electronics and sensors make it difficult for the DIY guys out there.

Jan Janowski
Premium Member
join:2000-06-18
Waynesville, NC

1 edit

Jan Janowski to Lurch77

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to Lurch77
Different MFG, but that's the symptoms we encountered months ago....
Never got it to work right, and other contacts became intermittent.
We ended up with new unit.

Good Luck

goodohman
@charter.com

goodohman

Anon

Lurch77, I don't mean to go off topic, glad the washers is working for now. I found you post from last year on your van stalling problem, (it being old it would not let me post on that topic) you explained your problem as I would be doing right now. Exact same problems, stalls, no codes, has to warm up, never happens to me only the wife. Did you fix it and if so what did it end up being.

Thanks in advance. Greg

Pacrat
Old and Cranky
MVM
join:2001-03-10
Cortland, OH

Pacrat

MVM

He quit letting his wife drive the vehicle... LOL... just couldn't resist! And now back to your regularly scheduled program!

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

Lurch77 to goodohman

Premium Member

to goodohman
I never did pinpoint the cause of problem. I ran sea foam through the fuel, and pulled and cleaned all sensors that I could. So far the problem has not come back.

jrs8084
Premium Member
join:2002-03-02
Statesville, NC

jrs8084 to Lurch77

Premium Member

to Lurch77
said by Lurch77:

I don't expect it to last forever

I remember a "buy you time" fix hoping to finish off a few more loads of laundry. That was '71. The dryer made it to '98

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

Lurch77

Premium Member

So far, so good. We've had a dozen or so loads go through it over the last couple days and have not had one hiccup.

jrs8084
Premium Member
join:2002-03-02
Statesville, NC

jrs8084

Premium Member

I have found appliances to be like employees: let them know they are about to be replaced and suddenly most shape up. I hope this buys you time until you get your new washer.

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

Lurch77

Premium Member

I'm eyeing Speed Queen right now. They are built a couple hours away from here, and they are mostly mechanical and easy to fix. Their front loader is water efficient. Still not completely sure we want a front loader. And, they are EXPENSIVE!

jrs8084
Premium Member
join:2002-03-02
Statesville, NC

1 edit

jrs8084

Premium Member

My first job was at a hotel, so I am used to front loaders. I actually had a front loader back in the 90s at a place I lived at. It was great. I never had to run any silly cleaning cycles.

However, (and this is where I think the source of your angst is) it was an old (Westinghouse, harvest gold) mechanical one from the 70s-nothing digital. I think your aversion to front loaders isn't the the fact it is a front loader, but rather the crappy build quality/complexity of new designs. Use one-you can here the cheap relays clicking. Worse, each has all these model specific parts and boards. It isn't like an old Whirlpool dryer where the same style thermo disc has been used for 40 years and is available in any shop.

I have a 23 y/o top loader I am holding onto. I don't think you can get any old style larger than 3.9 CF anymore because of water restrictions. When I am forced to replace it, I will go front load over the new style top loader. I have only used the agitator less top load a few times (beach house) and it was a total POS. Oh, wow, it played music when I turned it on. Took forever and didn't clean clothes.

I am less familiar with Speed Queen, but I have been following the other posts. If they make a quality product that can be fixed down the line (versus disposed of), I would be interested in that.

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

1 recommendation

Lurch77

Premium Member

Speed Queen are no frills machines, built like the proverbial brick shit house. They are commercial machines. Virtually every laundromat, hotel, and apartment complex uses them now. They've started making consumer models years ago. They don't sell as many as the other major brands out there, though, because they are very expensive, don't have fancy lighting, and they don't play music. But they will last forever and actually clean clothes. It seems our society is less concerned with operation and reliability and more concerned with the "cool" factor of machines today. Then they turn around and bitch online about how their machine doesn't work well or breaks down. Speed Queen also doesn't make an HE models, unless you consider their front loader. But even then it is not as efficient as what most people call HE machines on the market.

In the meantime I am just happy our old Whirlpool machine is working. I also found the service manual for it online, so any more repairs can be somewhat guided instead of me just taking things apart randomly until I figure it out.

jrs8084
Premium Member
join:2002-03-02
Statesville, NC

jrs8084

Premium Member

Sadly, I remember when Trane went from commercial to residential in the early 80's. Yup-high quality commercial units built and sized for the average Joe. That didn't last long. :-(

I hope Speed Queen doesn't follow the same path.

goodohman
@charter.com

goodohman to Lurch77

Anon

to Lurch77
Thank you that's what I will try.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to jrs8084

Premium Member

to jrs8084
Trane did use re-sized commercial units in the early 70's but soon Bought GE's HVAC division (Weathertron). This was prior to early 80's. My son-in-law lives in a subdivision that was built in late 70's and early 80's that still has the GE Weathertrons running.

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

2 recommendations

Lurch77

Premium Member

Just an update for anyone curious or contemplating this repair. Since repairing the timer we have had probably 50 or so loads go through, and it is still working perfectly.

jrs8084
Premium Member
join:2002-03-02
Statesville, NC

jrs8084

Premium Member

Thanks for the update. Even if the fix isn't permanent (I never had great luck with filing contacts-results were mostly short lived), you have time to research a washer of your choice.

My parent's 15 year old WP is starting to do the same random fail to drain/spin. I can't tell from your pictures, but the smaller piece in the timer you removed-did that snap in, or did you have to break a piece of plastic-weld to get it out?

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

Lurch77

Premium Member

It clips in on one side, and has a single plastic spot weld on the other end. I broke the weld to remove it. I filed the weld flat and used a couple dabs of superglue in its place to put it back together.
Lurch77

1 recommendation

Lurch77

Premium Member

Another update. I made this fix in February. Nearly 7 months and hundreds of loads later the problem has not reappeared. Keeping my fingers crossed. I hope this thread can help someone in the future.
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

LittleBill

Member

i had a dryer a few years back that would not fire up the heat elements and motor,

after 6 hours and down to the nuts and bolts, i found it to be a 10 cent relay causing the problem, since it was computer soldered i had no chance, i wired in a light switch override to replace what the relay did.

the dryer is still in use, and is over 15 years old at this point