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ToniCipriani
join:2001-12-21
L6G

ToniCipriani

Member

Objectively compare rCable and bDSL - Any tools?

I recently moved into a new condo building, and both Bell and Rogers are sequentially offering me free packages for 6 months, presumably so they can test out the building lines, so right now I'm on a hiatus from Tek. I'm planning to make a return once both packages expire, but I'm open to both rCable and bDSL options when I come back.

I'm currently on the Bell package now, will soon be on the Rogers once Bell expires, but will probably have a 30 day overlap due to their ridiculous 30 day cancellation notification policy (but hey it's free so I'm not complaining...)

Are there any recommended tools I can use to objectively decide which one to choose when I go back on Tek, to test stability, speed, etc. ?

Thanks.
redeye95
join:2014-01-22
Mississauga, ON

redeye95

Member

sorry, no idea... but look at the cost/speed ratio, then pick one.

cable or dsl are the same, (they get you on to the internet)... in my area in seems that cable is faster, but i chose DSL. 25/10

Teddy Boom
k kudos Received
Premium Member
join:2007-01-29
Toronto, ON

2 recommendations

Teddy Boom to ToniCipriani

Premium Member

to ToniCipriani
Test wise... Just make sure your line stats look great on the DSL, and see what kind of remote you are on. I assume you are using the Sagemcom modem? If so you'll have to do some searching to find methods of accessing that info.

Maybe check that at the first of every month for the duration.. Assuming that information comes out positive, DSL is probably the better choice.

In general, I've been explaining the difference between cable and DSL this way:

Very quick summary:
Some neighbourhoods are just bad for DSL.

Casual users are better off with cable. If it doesn't work, factory reset your modem and/or go to bed. Probably all is good by the next day.

More demanding users are better off with DSL. Those inconvenient outages are less common, and the time frame is 'go get a coffee' rather than 'go to bed'. This type of user is likely to call in right away when something requiring a tech comes up--casual users might wait a day or two hoping things fix themselves, which is rarely the case on DSL.

More detailed version, but definitely still a summary!
Cable is easier to install, and problems if/when they occur generally effect a large number of customers and get fixed without your intervention. Very occasionally cable issues become ridiculous because Rogers doesn't care at various levels. They don't act like an essential service even for their own customers, and they have designed in issues when it comes to serving TPIA.

DSL is a hassle to install, and problems if/when they occur are mostly local. If the wiring in your building, or in your neighbourhood is bad, or if Bell's equipment at the other end is old technology, you are stuck with it. If that stuff is good, the reliability of DSL is very good. Since Bell treats their services as mostly essential, central outages on DSL are rare and short lived. If/when something does happen, it is probably either inside your building, or between your building and the remote, and you'll have to call it in yourself.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to ToniCipriani

Premium Member

to ToniCipriani


1) Before you do anything, set the DNS for both cable & DSL to the same (8.8.8.8 / 4.4.4.4) or use some other reputable DNS service (OpenDNS). This eleiminates the variability of the DNS servers @ Rogers/Bell and gives you a DNS server in-common when you are testing.

2) Check speedtest.net frequently at all hours of the day.

3) Run downloads of the same large files (linux iso) at the same time of day/day of week, preferably between 6pm-1am (peak time) and compare the wall clock elapsed times for both DSL & cable. Do the same with streaming video to see dropout rates.

4) Remember that Bell will be monitoring every site you visit (there's no opting out of that).

5) You could buy identical laptops, configure them identically, and then run the tests above simultaneously during the overlap period you have with Bell/Rogers. That'll give you a side-by-side comparison of speed/latency. If you get the laptops from Costco, you can return them within 90 days.
ToniCipriani
join:2001-12-21
L6G

ToniCipriani to Teddy Boom

Member

to Teddy Boom
said by Teddy Boom:

Test wise... Just make sure your line stats look great on the DSL, and see what kind of remote you are on. I assume you are using the Sagemcom modem? If so you'll have to do some searching to find methods of accessing that info.

Maybe check that at the first of every month for the duration.. Assuming that information comes out positive, DSL is probably the better choice.

In general, I've been explaining the difference between cable and DSL this way:

Very quick summary:
Some neighbourhoods are just bad for DSL.

Casual users are better off with cable. If it doesn't work, factory reset your modem and/or go to bed. Probably all is good by the next day.

More demanding users are better off with DSL. Those inconvenient outages are less common, and the time frame is 'go get a coffee' rather than 'go to bed'. This type of user is likely to call in right away when something requiring a tech comes up--casual users might wait a day or two hoping things fix themselves, which is rarely the case on DSL.

More detailed version, but definitely still a summary!
Cable is easier to install, and problems if/when they occur generally effect a large number of customers and get fixed without your intervention. Very occasionally cable issues become ridiculous because Rogers doesn't care at various levels. They don't act like an essential service even for their own customers, and they have designed in issues when it comes to serving TPIA.

DSL is a hassle to install, and problems if/when they occur are mostly local. If the wiring in your building, or in your neighbourhood is bad, or if Bell's equipment at the other end is old technology, you are stuck with it. If that stuff is good, the reliability of DSL is very good. Since Bell treats their services as mostly essential, central outages on DSL are rare and short lived. If/when something does happen, it is probably either inside your building, or between your building and the remote, and you'll have to call it in yourself.

I'm on a Sagemcom. But the Bell tech guy told me my building has a brand new Stinger, because it's a brand new area, the buildings next to me are like 2-3 year old and mine just started occupancy a few months ago.

As for the installation, it was all done for me, I just did a slight modification to move the Fibe TV box onto my own hub, I have the Sagemcom right on the demarc, with my in-wall wiring into the hub, pure Ethernet only. When Rogers comes in it'll be the same setup, just swap out the Sagemcom for the Hitron. The only real difference for me is the filter, I know how to do structured wiring.

Cable has been good to me, before the hiatus I was on DOCSIS 2 + SB5101, though I did move into a different area, hence why I want to do the tests, before investing in a new modem.
ToniCipriani

ToniCipriani to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
Thanks for the DNS idea, totally forgot about that.

The tracking I know about, which is why I don't want to keep any of the Bell services, but I thought they aren't doing that with wholesale customers?
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by ToniCipriani:

Thanks for the DNS idea, totally forgot about that.

The tracking I know about, which is why I don't want to keep any of the Bell services, but I thought they aren't doing that with wholesale customers?

They say they aren't, but ....... we won't know for sure til they're caught. Then the CRTC will say "Tsk, tsk", and send them on their way.
adit7
join:2013-04-02
Oakville, ON

adit7 to ToniCipriani

Member

to ToniCipriani
I doubt there is "a brand new Stinger"... If you are on FTTN probably is a 7330 (which is better anyway). Also new construction in GTA is FTTH in most of the cases. Are you sure your condo is not FTTH ? What does Bell offer you ? If is 50/50 or 150/150 is FTTH and you can not get TekSavvy on it.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

Idea: Ask the building management to SHOW you the Bell service entrance to see if it's really fiber.

Take pictures. This is a distribution panel for Rogers in a friend's condo building »Re: CRTC asks for your comments to CNOC Cable Part 1
The service entrance is in the basement somewhere and I have not seen that yet.
ToniCipriani
join:2001-12-21
L6G

ToniCipriani to adit7

Member

to adit7
The free package was a 25/10. Which is weird because my coworker got 50/10 for his free package in a diff condo building.
ToniCipriani

ToniCipriani to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
Good idea... I think I managed to get in last time, it was just left open, maybe I can just sneak in.
adit7
join:2013-04-02
Oakville, ON

adit7 to ToniCipriani

Member

to ToniCipriani
So it's FTTN then. You should be able to switch to Tek later.

MacGyver

join:2001-10-14
Vancouver, BC

MacGyver to ToniCipriani

to ToniCipriani
Sign up for the line monitor. You can monitor uptime, pings, and packet loss. Those thigns are really important especially for voip, gaming, Skype, etc. There's a sticky at the top of the Teksavvy forum page to sign up for free.
ToniCipriani
join:2001-12-21
L6G

ToniCipriani

Member

OK so I just set up the monitor for my bDSL line, but problem is, nowhere in the Sagemcom I can set it to pingable. I tried pinging it from my phone and it definitely isn't.

Anyone know how I can make it pingable?

EDIT: looks like no way out...

»[DSL] How to enable WAN side ping response on Sagemcom F@ST 2864

Guess when rCable gets set up I'll have to move it to bridge mode and hook my router to it.

SimplePanda
BSD
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Montreal, QC

SimplePanda to ToniCipriani

Premium Member

to ToniCipriani
said by ToniCipriani:

Thanks for the DNS idea, totally forgot about that.

The tracking I know about, which is why I don't want to keep any of the Bell services, but I thought they aren't doing that with wholesale customers?

You really probably don't want to use 8.8.8.8 if you're comparison testing. All that will tell you is which sub-optimized routing works best on which network. Not exactly useful information. 8.8.8.8 will give you very different resolutions on Bell and Rogers due to anycasting.

If you -really- want to test and don't want to worry about reliability, run your own copy of named. Then you'll get GeoDNS optimized routing to places like CloudFront and Akamai.
ToniCipriani
join:2001-12-21
L6G

ToniCipriani

Member

Actually reliability and line quality is what I'm going after.

But so far with the 6 months of service, I am impressed with the bDSL line. Never had a no sync but a few no surfs, but seems like a known issue with the Sagemcom. Should be better once Fibe TV is gone. Pretty sure the SmartRG will fix it.

I'll see how rCable fare and I'll try to get the two line monitoring going.
ToniCipriani

ToniCipriani to SimplePanda

Member

to SimplePanda
Actually, would OpenDNS be better?

Anyhow I've started the line monitoring now, after a few hours wrestling with cables. Both rCable and bDSL are running on separate networks.

Although so far I'm more impressed with bDSL, rCable feels slower for my Citrix connection, even though SpeedTest says the raw download is much higher.

SimplePanda
BSD
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Montreal, QC

1 edit

SimplePanda

Premium Member

said by ToniCipriani:

Actually, would OpenDNS be better?

Anyhow I've started the line monitoring now, after a few hours wrestling with cables. Both rCable and bDSL are running on separate networks.

Although so far I'm more impressed with bDSL, rCable feels slower for my Citrix connection, even though SpeedTest says the raw download is much higher.

The best way to determine the speed of each network is to use the either a local DNS server on your LAN or the ISP provided/assigned by the ISP.

This is due to GeoDNS. When you resolve, say, "google.com" using Rogers DNS, GeoDNS on the Google side returns an answer that is optimized for the Rogers DNS server (and in turn, you). You then access the resulting IP via a generally shorter routing path.

When you use OpenDNS or Google Public, you get IP resolution optimized for the OpenDNS or Google Public location, which may not be ideal for you.

Case in point (on TekSavvy):

$ host www.apple.com 208.67.222.222
www.apple.com is an alias for www.isg-apple.com.akadns.net.
e3191.dscc.akamaiedge.net has address 23.78.189.15

$ ping 23.218.107.217
PING 23.218.107.217 (23.218.107.217): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 23.218.107.217: icmp_seq=0 ttl=53 time=29.371 ms
64 bytes from 23.218.107.217: icmp_seq=1 ttl=53 time=36.740 ms
64 bytes from 23.218.107.217: icmp_seq=2 ttl=53 time=29.233 ms
64 bytes from 23.218.107.217: icmp_seq=3 ttl=53 time=31.133 ms

So, according to OpenDNS "www.apple.com" is at 23.218.107.217, which is 9 hops and about 32ms away from me. This involves traversing about 4 or 5 hops at nLayer to get back to Akamai, which hosts Apple.

On the other hand:

$ host www.apple.com 172.16.254.1
www.apple.com is an alias for www.isg-apple.com.akadns.net.
e3191.dscc.akamaiedge.net has address 173.223.77.15

$ ping 173.223.77.15
PING 173.223.77.15 (173.223.77.15): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 173.223.77.15: icmp_seq=0 ttl=60 time=11.394 ms
64 bytes from 173.223.77.15: icmp_seq=1 ttl=60 time=12.098 ms
64 bytes from 173.223.77.15: icmp_seq=2 ttl=60 time=12.007 ms
64 bytes from 173.223.77.15: icmp_seq=3 ttl=60 time=11.879 ms

According to TekSavvy's DNS server, www.apple.com is at 173.223.77.15. This is 5 hops and 12ms away. Routing is literally TekSavvy to Akamai due to TekSavvy having direct peering.

The direct routing is really only possible because Akamai's GeoDNS detects that TekSavvy's DNS is the one doing the requesting, and returns more optimized answers a result.

The same scenario is repeatable with IPv6 as well.

So by NOT using OpenDNS, I get 1/3rd the latency.

Besides, TSI Gabe posted a comment / thread lately in which he showed comparisons between the newly upgraded TekSavvy DNS servers and OpenDNS. TekSavvy's DNS servers are faster than OpenDNS's and in my experience rarely have issues.

The only reason to use OpenDNS is for their filtering and network management tools.

There is NO reason to use Google Public DNS if you're a TekSavvy customer. I can really only see Google Public DNS having a point if you have an ISP with known DNS reliability issues (Rogers, for example), and even then, only as a temporary solution until proper service is restored.

NOW... if you're testing the performance of both networks to the same IP address (or a host name with no CDN and a single IP no matter where you resolve it from) that's a different story; it's all down to routing performance at that point and you can use whatever DNS service you want to make those tests.

In my case I have a lot of machines I manage at us-east-1d (Amazon AWS) and TekSavvy is faster than Rogers to Amazon in terms of latency, DNS not withstanding.

RizzleQ
Cunningham's Law Enthusiast
Premium Member
join:2006-01-12
Windsor, ON

RizzleQ

Premium Member

+1

So many people keep saying Google DNS or OpenDNS is better but this breaks down how that just isn't the case.

SimplePanda
BSD
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Montreal, QC

SimplePanda

Premium Member

It is worth noting that there are methods in place to deal with these issues; specifically, edns-client-subnet extensions to the DNS protocol. These allow requesting resolvers to forward the client address to the authoritative name servers in question, thus creating "local DNS" like resolutions.

The problem is that edns-client-subnet isn't widely supported by CDN's yet. There is some indication that Amazon either just began supporting it or is just about to support it, but CloudFront and a variety of other non-anycat CDN's still do not.