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CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

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CXM_Splicer to BosstonesOwn

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Re: UAW loses chance to unionize VW Tenn plant

Of course you realize that it would be the same workers... right? Quality tends to get better with unionization, not worse.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd

Premium Member

I think management plays the biggest role, If the management pushes quality than you get quality.

AnonMe
@comcastbusiness.net

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Thanks for the laugh on a Sunday night!

Agreed that quality products are driven by quality focused management. The only thing unions offer is to drive up the price of products and make it more difficult for a company to be flexible enough to change with market demands.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

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"Quality tends to get better with unionization, not worse."

Oh that explains why every UAW built car or truck I've owned starts to fall apart at 80-100k miles and the non UAW built ones are trouble free well beyond 150k miles.
Kommie2 (banned)
join:2003-05-13
united state

Kommie2 (banned)

Member

said by battleop:

"Quality tends to get better with unionization, not worse."

Oh that explains why every UAW built car or truck I've owned starts to fall apart at 80-100k miles and the non UAW built ones are trouble free well beyond 150k miles.

Managment wanted to make more profits so they skipped on the QA. Thats why. Do not blame unions. Chances are if your car was imported it was Union Made. All Toyota/Honda Plants in Japan are unionized.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

I bet you next will tell me that UAW's wish higher wages (and dues) won't translate into higher prices as well?

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

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There is a big difference between US style union VS management(adversarial) and European style(+Japanese) Union + management team work (shared responsibility)

The US companies now follow SOME of the practices that makes this work well and quality is now much improved on well designed models, there are still too many models with dozens of rattley plastic do-dads and cup holders somehow thinking that is quality.
If US execs thought more about how to make the vehicle retain value and be good to drive in 5-8 years (for the second/third owner) rather than how to be sure you'll want a new one in 2 or 3 years, we could be the world leader again.
Rakeesh
join:2011-10-30
Phoenix, AZ

Rakeesh to Kommie2

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Typically if you buy a Toyota or a Honda it is made in the US, even a lot of the parts being made in the US. Toyota and Honda both have a preference for opening plants in states that happen to be non-union states (though some are in unionized states, not many.)

It would make sense because auto unions tend to be the worst when it comes to poor productivity. This mainly comes in the form of auto union rules requiring that workers only do one given type of job at a factory. In non-union plants, if one worker happens to miss work that particular day, pretty much anybody can fill his spot in a less needed area. In unionized plants, union rules require each worker only works on a specific thing, if they "float" then another worker can file a grievance and get the floating employee fired. Due to the way the assembly concept of pipelining works, this slows down the entire factory.

European unions aren't so bad because they don't create this situation of "its us vs the management" to create infighting at the company like US unions do. In Europe, unions tend to work with the management as a team to represent the performance of their industry and to a lesser extent their company, rather than strictly maximizing their paycheck.

Though US unions don't necessarily even want the later, rather they're more or less in it for the union bosses' own interests. If you look at the primary reason why UAW was voted out here, it's because the UAW wanted the right to implement wage caps to make it "fair" for workers at detroit plants. In other words, the union wanted to keep member pay DOWN.
Kommie2 (banned)
join:2003-05-13
united state

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said by battleop:

I bet you next will tell me that UAW's wish higher wages (and dues) won't translate into higher prices as well?

If your worry about higher prices get congress to cut out the middle man. Let AutoMakers sell direct to consumers. Tesla and Daewoo were attempting to do that, but then the Automotive Dealers Lobby bought out the Politicans to protect the middleman.

This has nothing to do with Unions.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

That kool aide must taste good... If you really think that the UAW does not increase the price to the consumer you must drink the kool aide by the gallon.
Kommie2 (banned)
join:2003-05-13
united state

Kommie2 (banned)

Member

Nope. Infact the UAW might actually help produce a profit for the Automaker. If the Workers can afford to buy the car they produce thanks to wages.

The only person who increases the price to the consumer is the automotive dealer.

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

David

Premium Member

said by Kommie2:

The only person who increases the price to the consumer is the automotive dealer.

I could agree with this part... one of dad's old lessons to me about car shopping was "You never screw a car dealer, you just pick the level of screwing of you, you can afford."

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

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I don't believe it for one minute. If the auto maker's labor costs go up they are not going to eat that increase in expenses. They are going to pass it on down the line.
Kommie2 (banned)
join:2003-05-13
united state

Kommie2 (banned)

Member

Go ask Henry Ford.

»www.thedailybeast.com/ar ··· fit.html

Its the Auto Dealer you should have gripes with. Going through the dealer raises the price by 15% ask Tesla Motors.

Bill Neilson
Premium Member
join:2009-07-08
Alexandria, VA

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I just have never understood why Unions are deemed the corrupt ones when Corporate America has shown to be just as if not worse.

caseywor
join:2004-04-19
Mobile, AL
·Verizon Broadban..
·AT&T FTTP

caseywor to Kommie2

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said by Kommie2:

said by battleop:

"Quality tends to get better with unionization, not worse."

Oh that explains why every UAW built car or truck I've owned starts to fall apart at 80-100k miles and the non UAW built ones are trouble free well beyond 150k miles.

Managment wanted to make more profits so they skipped on the QA. Thats why. Do not blame unions. Chances are if your car was imported it was Union Made. All Toyota/Honda Plants in Japan are unionized.

But most of the Honda and Toyota cars sold in this county (from their most popular models) are not made in Japan, they are made in non-union plants in the US: Marysville, OH (Honda), Lincoln, AL (Honda), Georgetown, KY (Toyota). These models (Accord and Camry among others) still rate higher in quality than the US makes, although their plants are not union.
caseywor

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So you think that the added cost of having union employees will be offset by having the employees (a very small percentage of the car buying population) buy cars from them? Wow!
Expand your moderator at work

non_union
@comcast.net

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Anon

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Re: UAW loses chance to unionize VW Tenn plant

said by Rakeesh:

European unions aren't so bad because they don't create this situation of "its us vs the management" to create infighting at the company like US unions do. In Europe, unions tend to work with the management as a team to represent the performance of their industry and to a lesser extent their company, rather than strictly maximizing their paycheck.

Right, as if the CEO and executive team aren't "strictly maximizing their paycheck." That's hilarious! As is typical though, those top players are conveniently left out of the discussion. So you want to talk about an "us vs them" relationship, huh? That cuts both ways.

Maybe this has something to do with the relationship dynamic?

»www.epi.org/publication/ ··· ly-high/

"Depending on the CEO compensation measure, U.S. CEOs of major companies earned 20.1 or 18.3 times more than a typical worker in 1965; this ratio grew to 29.0-to-1 or 26.5-to-1 in 1978 and 58.5-to-1 or 53.3-to-1 by 1989 and then surged in the 1990s to hit 383.4-to-1 or 411.3-to-1 by the end of the recovery in 2000."

»www.forbes.com/sites/kat ··· -market/

"'From 1978 to 2012,' states the report, 'CEO compensation measured with options realized increased about 875 percent, a rise more than double stock market growth and substantially greater than the painfully slow 5.4 percent growth in a typical worker’s compensation over the same period.'"

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi ··· _Pay.png

That's 30 years now of 8.50% annual average growth in CEO pay vs 0.30% annual average growth in worker pay.

So you want to talk about Europe and Japan?

Germany has effectively half the CEO-to-worker pay ratio of the US, and Japan's ratio is even smaller (about half of Germany's). Maybe that has something to do with their style of relationship.
SJTech
join:2013-01-28

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Detroit is a shining example of that