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UHF
All static, all day, Forever
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
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·Mediacom
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reply to Jack_in_VA

Re: [Electrical] Re: Electrical problem

said by Jack_in_VA:

Evidently people not used to equipment other than water heaters have a problem with measuring resistance and High voltage cable and equipment leakage.

Interesting, because I do measure resistance on high voltage cable and equipment. Zero ohms is a perfect conductor, while "high ohms" or infinite is an open circuit. A low resistivity indicates a material that readily allows the movement of electric charge.


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
reply to Jack_in_VA

Re: [Electrical] Electrical problem

said by Jack_in_VA:

If you open the switch the ohmmeter will not read any ohms so the value is zero.

So by the same logic if you measure 120V on the 2V range of your multimeter and get no reading it means that the voltage is 0?
Don't think so.
No reading means resistance higher than the selected range of the multimeter. NOT zero.


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to Jack_in_VA

Re: [Electrical] Re: Electrical problem

said by Jack_in_VA:

Whatever you say. Infinite ohms is zero ohms i.e. no reading of ohms value.

Jack, I've always respected and agreed with your opinions on here until this case. Infinite ohms corresponds to an extremely high level, 0 ohms mean there aren't any, 2 very different points on the scale!! If you touch your probe to 2 ends of a wire you will read 0 ohms, if you hold the 2 probes in the air you will get infinite number of ohms which is what you should have if you major between the elements of a water heater and ground.


Jack_in_VA
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North, VA
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said by Msradell:

Jack, I've always respected and agreed with your opinions on here until this case. Infinite ohms corresponds to an extremely high level, 0 ohms mean there aren't any, 2 very different points on the scale!! If you touch your probe to 2 ends of a wire you will read 0 ohms, if you hold the 2 probes in the air you will get infinite number of ohms which is what you should have if you major between the elements of a water heater and ground.

You are right because that is the conventional way to describe it. I'm just saying that an infinite number is the same as no or zero ohms.

It's conventional terminology that has been around forever and was very necessary when analog ohmmeters needed by be "zeroed" by touching the probes together and turning the pot to make the meter needle match the zero mark on the scale. That "zero" operation is necessary with an analog ohmmeter for measurement accuracy.


SparkChaser
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Downingtown, PA
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said by Jack_in_VA:

It's conventional terminology that has been around forever and was very necessary when analog ohmmeters needed by be "zeroed" by touching the probes together and turning the pot to make the meter needle match the zero mark on the scale. That "zero" operation is necessary with an analog ohmmeter for measurement accuracy.

Yes, that's ZERO ohms. Probes not touching is infinite ohms.
--
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." - Neil deGrasse Tyson


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

It's conventional terminology that has been around forever and was very necessary when analog ohmmeters needed by be "zeroed" by touching the probes together and turning the pot to make the meter needle match the zero mark on the scale. That "zero" operation is necessary with an analog ohmmeter for measurement accuracy.

The terminology has never been around.
Zero-ing an analog ohmmeter insures that a zero resistance (short-circuit) registers as 0 and not 0.7 or beyond the 0 an the analog scale.
An open circuit registers as infinity. The scale of the analog meter shows infinity with an open circuit.


Cho Baka
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join:2000-11-23
there
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reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

How is zero ohms to ground incorrect? No reading is zero ohms. Actually one may read a resistance on a heating element but a very high value. Use a megger on it an see what you get.

Jack, you are barking up the wrong tree here.
--

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

I'm just saying that an infinite number is the same as no or zero ohms.

Infinity equals zero (not)


UHF
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reply to Jack_in_VA
Ok, I think I see what you mean, and where the confusion is coming in. An open circuit reads "zero" (no deflection) on the scale, because the analog scale on ohms reads "backwards", where zero is full deflection and an open, or infinite ohms, reads as no deflection on the scale, just like zero volts would.

85281231

join:2014-02-01
Have not used an analog meter in a long time but I remember the Ohms scale having an infinite symbol(sideways 8) when the needle is at rest and zero on the other extreme, two completely different things.


Msradell
P.E.
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join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to dhudson1984

Re: [Electrical] Electrical problem

I've given up on Jack! I see no other way to convince him that 0 does not equal INFINITY!
--
Written using Dragon NaturallySpeaking


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT

3 recommendations

reply to Jack_in_VA

Re: [Electrical] Re: Electrical problem

Open circuit. "Infinity" ohms.



Short circuit. "Zero" ohms.



Obviously totally different things

dhudson1984

join:2008-01-04
Charleston, WV
Reviews:
·Suddenlink
reply to dhudson1984

Re: [Electrical] Electrical problem

So, I lied. It is actually a 30 gal. single element tank. I just saw that there was a top and bottom panel, but the top didn't have an element. There's just some other hex rounded part there with no element wired.

Anyway, I let the tank drain a couple of hours before I had to leave for work and when I got back in late this evening, I took the old element out. It wasn't burned... just somewhat corroded since it's been in there the 13 years he's had it, so we went ahead and replaced it with a new one. I got the water turned back on and will let it go until late morning, then try the breaker to see if it trips again. If it still does with the new element, then he has an electrical problem for sure.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
If the new breaker trips then it's going to be a problem with the wiring. An electrician will be needed to troubleshoot it.


mattmag
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join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois
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4 recommendations

reply to Msradell
said by Msradell:

I've given up on Jack! I see no other way to convince him that 0 does not equal INFINITY!

Nor will you, as its Jack's way or the highway....


OhmsLaw

@suddenlink.net
reply to Jack_in_VA

Re: [Electrical] Re: Electrical problem

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by Msradell:

Jack, I've always respected and agreed with your opinions on here until this case. Infinite ohms corresponds to an extremely high level, 0 ohms mean there aren't any, 2 very different points on the scale!! If you touch your probe to 2 ends of a wire you will read 0 ohms, if you hold the 2 probes in the air you will get infinite number of ohms which is what you should have if you major between the elements of a water heater and ground.

You are right because that is the conventional way to describe it. I'm just saying that an infinite number is the same as no or zero ohms.

It's conventional terminology that has been around forever and was very necessary when analog ohmmeters needed by be "zeroed" by touching the probes together and turning the pot to make the meter needle match the zero mark on the scale. That "zero" operation is necessary with an analog ohmmeter for measurement accuracy.

Jack, you are TOTALLY and COMPLETELY wrong on this one. When you "zero" a meter, you are adjusting it to read a DEAD SHORT as a DEAD SHORT (because a reading of, say 20 Ohms could lead you down the wrong path if you're checking for shorts in a motor winding). How do you do the zero process? By SHORTING the leads together, thereby creating a ZERO OHMS condition.

I know you think that if you yell at other people enough that it will prove you are right, but this time your are most certainly wrong. Period.

Get out your meter and measure the resistance of a short piece of wire.


DarkHelmet

join:2014-02-21

2 recommendations

reply to mattmag

Re: [Electrical] Electrical problem

said by mattmag:

said by Msradell:

I've given up on Jack! I see no other way to convince him that 0 does not equal INFINITY!

Nor will you, as its Jack's way or the highway....

He's worse then my wife!

dhudson1984

join:2008-01-04
Charleston, WV
Reviews:
·Suddenlink
reply to dhudson1984
So yeah, bad news as I thought since the old element wasn't burnt... The breaker for the tank kicked again. Luckily the main didn't kick this time. I'm going to have to call someone to come troubleshoot for him. It's odd that it happened after the Weatherization folks left. The only thing they did electrical wise was added the ventilation fan along with a breaker for it. I'll report back once we find out what is causing it for those interested in knowing.

dhudson1984

join:2008-01-04
Charleston, WV
reply to dhudson1984
I found this video. I assume since it wasn't the element, then it has to be the thermostat then since the tank is old. What do you guys think?

dhudson1984

join:2008-01-04
Charleston, WV
Reviews:
·Suddenlink
reply to dhudson1984
Sorry. Here's the video...

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E-F_dUZgz8


The breaker doesn't kick immediately. It will stay in probably for a good 10-15 min give or take.


SparkChaser
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Downingtown, PA
kudos:4
reply to dhudson1984
A thermostat won't cause an overload unless there is a wire shorted to the case. In which case it probably would trip right away.


nunya
LXI 483
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O Fallon, MO
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reply to dhudson1984
Being that it sometimes trips the main, it's probably an intermittent hard fault. That's why I said hire an electrician with a megger. Some knuckleheads think a megger is only used for motors and transformers, however they are great at finding intermittent faults as well. It sends high voltage over the conductors and senses leakage. Many times an intermittent fault will show up on a leakage test.

It could be something like a screw or nail that only shows up at certain temps (both ambient and wire).

Another thing - is the WH breaker near the main breaker? It could be a heat issue. It could be a problem in the panel itself (bad stabs, loose breaker, charred bus, varmint, etc...).

Trailers are especially dangerous, electrically speaking. Most often the original factory wiring is shady, at best. Trailers usually have thin walls. Trailer burn really fast.
Leave the breaker off and get a pro in there.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


SparkChaser
Premium
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Downingtown, PA
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said by nunya:

That's why I said hire an electrician with a megger.

Good advice. Any place I worked, our equipment had to go through High Pot test. It's amazing the things that show up.


severe200

@comcast.net
reply to dhudson1984
please, pay attention to the folks who ask you to call the electrician.
sounds like a severe safety problem with the main wiring for the whole place.
consider shutting off ALL the electric until the electrician arrives.
take out the meter if you have to, or call the power company.

even if the water heater, the oven, and the dryer are all on full, at say 50 amps each, that's still not enough to cause the 200 to go.

if the main 200A breaker is tripping you have a serious HIGH AMP PROBLEM.
some big wire shorting to ground or neutral.
a problem big enough to cause melted wires and sparking and melted steel.

if $ I a problem, perhaps you could find a barter electrician on craigs etc, or a friend who know someone.

it sounds like a problem MORE severe than just the water heater...

dhudson1984

join:2008-01-04
Charleston, WV
Reviews:
·Suddenlink
So, the uncle came up early this morning to put in a new thermostat and breaker for him... breaker is staying in, but the tank still isn't heating. I did notice that he actually picked up the wrong thermostat. It is a single element tank and he picked up an upper thermostat for a double element tank and put it in. Would the wrong one being installed cause it to still not be heating as well? It looks like its in place like it should be.


mackey
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Trailer fire in 5..
4..
3..

H_T_R_N
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Valencia, PA
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reply to Jack_in_VA

Re: [Electrical] Re: Electrical problem

said by Jack_in_VA:

"0" ohms to ground (metal).

0 ohms to ground is a dead short and will trip the switch every time.

85281231

join:2014-02-01
reply to Jack_in_VA

Re: [Electrical] Electrical problem

said by Jack_in_VA:

If the new breaker trips then it's going to be a problem with the wiring. An electrician will be needed to troubleshoot it.

Hopefully THAT electrician knows how to read a meter, and knows zero ohms is NOT the same as infinity.


leibold
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Sunnyvale, CA
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reply to dhudson1984
I don't get it.

You tell us that money is a problem but so far you have bought:
- a new heating element
- a new thermostat
- a new breaker

All of the above instead of spending that amount of money on a professional to figure out what the real cause of the problem is.

You also show no appreciation for the very real danger that this situation presents for the property and the life of anybody inside. The random tripping of the water heater and/or main circuit breaker points to intermittent short circuits as the cause (the very first reply on this forum already told you that).

THIS IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!

Every time you are pushing that breaker back on you are playing russian roulette that the next time the electrical fault will start a fire. You should have had an electrician on site 3 days ago, what are you waiting for ?
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dhudson1984

join:2008-01-04
Charleston, WV
Reviews:
·Suddenlink
reply to dhudson1984
Here's the deal... we were finally able to get someone we know who is an electrician to come up and check it out for him. I was taking no more chances since it still wasn't working... What we found out was that the wiring going into the top of the tank had been burnt where it had arced. The only thing we figured out was someone could have bumped that wire and knocked the connections loose down inside, causing the wires to get together and causing the fault with the breaker tripping. It got late this evening, so he's most likely going to just go ahead and replace the tank come Monday since it is that old and right about the end of its life cycle