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aurgathor
join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA

aurgathor

Member

Win 8 UI: an insider's view

I guess the Win 8 UI has already been beaten to death many times over (and I may be slightly guilty of that ), but this is info from a person who (presumably) actively participated in the UI design.

Lots of reading on reddit

Shorter op-eds on BGR: »bgr.com/2014/02/18/windo ··· iticism/
or on yahoo at: »finance.yahoo.com/news/h ··· 978.html

A few interesting tidbits:
"Microsoft did an almost obscene level of user testing as it was developing Windows 8 – 1.24 billion hours of testing across 190 countries, Microsoft said. "

1.24 billion hours (!!!), and it still wasn't enough to predict the broken windows.
quote:
Miller writes that Microsoft wanted to make the Metro UI mostly for more casual computer users who were flocking to iOS and Android devices because they offered simple and intuitive platforms for basic computing tasks.
That sounds very good, but as far as I know iOS and Android normally used on phones and tablets, not desktops.
quote:
“Metro is a content consumption space,” he explains. “It is designed for casual users who only want to check facebook, view some photos, and maybe post a selfie to instagram. It’s designed for your computer illiterate little sister, for grandpas who don’t know how to use that computer dofangle thingy, and for mom who just wants to look up apple pie recipes. It’s simple, clear, and does one thing (and only one thing) relatively easily. That is what Metro is. It is the antithesis of a power user.”
I guess I can sort of agree with this: it's "Bob 2012!!"
quote:
Miller goes on to explain that the Metro UI is actually a good thing for power users, however, because it will let Microsoft add a lot more features for them in the desktop mode while keeping the Metro screen separate for all of the computer illiterates out there.
This is where I start to disagree -- for example, what exactly was added to desktop mode? The ability to switch to Metro, perchance?

Much more in the links, especially the reddit link.

goalieskates
Premium Member
join:2004-09-12
land of big

goalieskates

Premium Member

quote:
So why make Metro the default? And why was there no way to boot to desktop in Windows 8.0?

The short answer is because casual users don't go exploring. If we made desktop the default as it has always been, and included a nice little start menu that felt like home, the casual users would never have migrated to their land of milk and honey. They would still occupy the desktop just as they always had, and we would have been stuck in square one. So we forced it upon them. We drove them to it with goads in their sides. In 8.1, we softened the points on the goads by giving users an option to boot directly to desktop.
With thinking like that, no wonder it tanked.

digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium Member
join:2000-07-15
GTA

digitalfutur

Premium Member

Look a the big picture and the long term. MS has had OS release "failures" before, but the trend doesn't last.

No tech company can survive today without a mobile strategy. Win7 wasn't it for MS. Win8 is the beginning of it, but not the end game, which is one MS OS for all platforms: Phone, mobile, desktop and XBox.
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus

Premium Member

Yet they literally took a big steaming dump on the desktop by forcing people to use a gui designed to compete with the damn ipad, and just as limited in functionality. Not a smart move, and it still confused casual users when they couldn't find the start button on the desktop, otherwise figure out there was a charms bar.

goalieskates
Premium Member
join:2004-09-12
land of big

goalieskates to digitalfutur

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to digitalfutur
said by digitalfutur:

the end game, which is one MS OS for all platforms: Phone, mobile, desktop and XBox.

Now that's just stupid. You suit the tool to the job at hand. You do not use a hammer when you need a router or a wrench.

Tech isn't immune to the real world, even if they'd like to believe they are. Whoever cooked that idea up needs to get out more. And ponder why their sales numbers suck.
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to BlitzenZeus

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to BlitzenZeus
Literally?
markf
join:2008-01-24
Scarborough, ON

markf to goalieskates

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to goalieskates
I've been using Windows 8 (8.1) for about 2 months now. I'd consider myself a power user.

With a touch screen laptop, I don't find Windows 8 all that bad. I can easily access whatever I need with minimal effort, be it a Metro app or desktop app. From anywhere, I can swipe in from the side and click the search to get anything I want. I rarely used the Windows 7 start menu for anything more than pinned applications or to search for what I want. It takes too much of my time to look through menus when I can just type what I want and it pops up right awa.

The strategy of moving to one consistent interface is a good one. Their "look" is moving across all platforms and I don't see that as a bad thing.

I've actually gotten used to the way Windows 8 works and really don't miss Windows 7 all that much. It's not perfect, but it's far from awful I think. I could see it not being as easy to use if you were trying to use it on a mouse only PC.

Based on my Windows 8 experience, I'd consider picking up a Surface RT to play around again if it were in the $200 range again like Surface 1 was here around Christmas.

digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
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join:2000-07-15
GTA

digitalfutur to goalieskates

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to goalieskates
You're stuck on the snapshot. Windows 8 is the next step in the evolution to a single OS, which is adaptable to any device, this is the big picture.

WordPerfect was the dominant word processor in the early 90s until MS integrated Word with other Office apps, using a common interface.
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus to markf

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There was an entire year of the 8.0 crap where you were forced to go through the metro start menu, or used 3rd party. 8.1 fixed some things like boot to desktop, no auto-hiding start button, however even now with the upcoming 8.1 update they are finally fixing things reported in the beta that should have never made it rtm. The 8.1 update will finally allow us to pin metro apps to the desktop taskbar, something 3rd party replacements put in their start menu replacements from the start.

It was forced 8.0 rtm too early, they ignored beta testers, along with media reports bashing it, and nearly two years later they're still fixing it. There was such a decline in pc sales companies continued, or brought back the option to sell systems with Win 7 just so they could actually sell their hardware.

Kramer
Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA

Kramer to aurgathor

Mod

to aurgathor
said by aurgathor:

Miller goes on to explain that the Metro UI is actually a good thing for power users, however, because it will let Microsoft add a lot more features for them in the desktop mode while keeping the Metro screen separate for all of the computer illiterates out there.

This is where I disagree too. Computer illiterates were completely comfortable with desktop mode. Now they get thrown back and forth and have no idea where they are and what they need to do next. For instance, by default Windows 8 associates JPGs with the Metro app. Same thing with PDFs unless the user thinks to install Acrobat reader. Once an end user figures out how to get to the desktop with a sigh of relief, they open up a picture or a PDF with a sigh of "oh sh#&". They want to get back to the desktop and have no idea how.

aurgathor
join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA

aurgathor

Member

I also disagree with a target of "computer illiterate" -- nowadays, most people already had some exposure to computers and they are able to perform basic tasks, so there is not very many computer illiterate people left (exc. very young children) but those older people who are truly illiterate, are not particularly likely to start using computers now, so the UI is mostly irrelevant for them.

On the other hand, it will confuses the heck out of most everyone, except those who have significant experience with other touch screen phones or tablets.

Kramer
Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA

Kramer

Mod

I agree. I should have put that term in quotes.

Oregonian
Premium Member
join:2000-12-21
West Linn, OR

Oregonian to aurgathor

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to aurgathor
I can't really disagree with the thinking behind Windows 8 as described in the articles. The only things they did wrong (IMHO) were to:

1. Not provide the option to boot directly into the Desktop and

2. the hatchet job on the Start Menu.

If, from the initial release of Win 8, we could have had the option to boot directly into the desktop and had a normal Win 7 Start Menu available, then I think that there would have been much less of an outcry against Win 8.

goalieskates
Premium Member
join:2004-09-12
land of big

1 recommendation

goalieskates to digitalfutur

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to digitalfutur
said by digitalfutur:

WordPerfect was the dominant word processor in the early 90s until MS integrated Word with other Office apps, using a common interface.

You're omitting the fact MS literally gave Word away to individual buyers and companies to encourage adoption. WordPerfect was the more serious word processor in terms of capability and still is. That common interface wasn't the selling point. And for years, Word users struggled with non-standard junk that only worked in the Microsoft ecosystem.

Sometimes the better product doesn't win. In the end, the end user might get shortchanged, but hey, lowering standards is becoming a recurring theme these days.

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
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join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

1 recommendation

sivran to Oregonian

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to Oregonian
said by Oregonian:

I can't really disagree with the thinking behind Windows 8 as described in the articles. The only things they did wrong (IMHO) were to:

1. Not provide the option to boot directly into the Desktop and

2. the hatchet job on the Start Menu.

If, from the initial release of Win 8, we could have had the option to boot directly into the desktop and had a normal Win 7 Start Menu available, then I think that there would have been much less of an outcry against Win 8.

Where's that accepted answer image when you need it?

I don't have a problem with Metro. Okay, no deal-breaking problem. So what if Metro's the antithesis of a power user? I am a power user, and I have always (or at least, for a very, very long time) modified the Windows shell in some way, generally by replacing it with bbLean.

Because I'm a power user, I can do that, I accept the risks and potential pitfalls it entails. Or, because I'm a power user, I can seek and find ways to use what is already there more efficiently. Because I know what the hell I'm doing. I don't care that Microsoft forced Metro, because as a power user, I can adapt or force Desktop right back.

Hell, when I was running 8 Preview on my laptop, I didn't even bother with the then-nascent Start8 or ClassicShell. On my laptop, Metro sufficed as a way to launch my programs. Only when I upgraded my desktop did my needs outgrow Metro, so I installed ClassicShell. No problemo.

So in the end, to the power user, Metro is irrelevant. So why not at least attempt to save the power user the 30 seconds it takes to install ClassicShell?

dib22
join:2002-01-27
Kansas City, MO

3 recommendations

dib22 to aurgathor

Member

to aurgathor
If they only left the start menu none of the bad blood would be occurring... sure people would still be moaning about the "charms" popup when your mouse hits the corner, but that would have done much less damage to the windows brand than what they did.

aurgathor
join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA

2 recommendations

aurgathor

Member

Not just the start menu, but a fully functional, Win 7 like desktop with all the usual stuff -- start button, start menu, run, shutdown, the usual set of desktop icons, and not a DINO like the one in Win 8. (Desktop In Name Only)

Michail
Premium Member
join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL

Michail to aurgathor

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to aurgathor
I think a few tweaks here and there based off of having a touch screen would have made a huge difference from day 1.

I have two systems now running Win8.1. One is a hybrid touch laptop and the other is a traditional desktop. Also, there are quite a few servers that I manage for work.

Anyway, on the hybrid laptop I find that I love the way 8.1 works. I even choose to web browse in modern UI mode. I've also taken to a few other modern UI apps. However, I find I don't do that on my desktop system. Actually, I don't really use my desktop all that much anymore. If I do it's through RDP on my touch system.

The only time I use a mouse now is in stuff like Visual Studio, which makes heavy use of hovers. Visual Studio is a PITA to use without a mouse. Though it has made me learn some more keyboard shortcuts.

It was a bold move on Microsoft's part with some missteps. But I think it's the right long term move. I don't want to be in a computing world dominated by google and apple. There is no growth potential in the desktop market. But that doesn't mean it's dead either.

I can remember people being even more upset and passionately angry about the move from DOS to Windows and graphical UIs.

BrettZ
join:2013-08-15

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Member

to aurgathor
Dont understand why you cant ignore the metro UI. How is start button a gamechanger?
AsherN
Premium Member
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON

1 recommendation

AsherN

Premium Member

Because the 'Start Button" is just a way to get you to Metro.

What Win 8 needed was the Metro interface and the full desktop Win 7 interface. And the ability to select which was the default.

And to leave the damn Metro interface completely off Server 2012. And just maybe get UO designers that know what they are doing. the non-Metro stuff looks exactly the way Win 1 and Win 2 looked.

Same with Office 2013. Really?? Colour choices are White, light Grey and Dark grey. In white, if two apps overlap, it's almost impossible to tell where one starts and the other begins.

Michail
Premium Member
join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL

Michail to BlitzenZeus

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to BlitzenZeus
said by BlitzenZeus:

There was such a decline in pc sales companies continued, or brought back the option to sell systems with Win 7 just so they could actually sell their hardware.

I don't think the decline in sales had anything to do with Win8. Older systems now are still powerful enough and most people are moving to devices and tablets.

What is needed to drive PC sales is innovation in hardware design and human interaction.

If you go somewhere like Best Buy and look at what people are looking at it's Surfaces and hybrid systems. The other stuff gets largely ignored.
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus

Premium Member

Well people who know don't buy their computer at Worst Buy either as they like to open the box, and modify the system before selling it by putting their software on it, then say it's "Optimized by Geeksquad". Nobody should buy a computer from them as they altered the product, and opened the box.

Also it was clear that the lack of the start button confused people from the beginning, and forcing the metro startmenu on them was a horrible idea. In the update to 8.1 they are finally going to make the desktop the default interface for those without touchscreens, something they should have done from the damn start.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to Michail

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to Michail
said by Michail:

The only time I use a mouse now is in stuff like Visual Studio, which makes heavy use of hovers.

So, how are you using three or more monitors without a mouse? I suppose you only have one monitor for your desktop computer? How passé.
Happydude32
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join:2005-07-16

Happydude32 to BlitzenZeus

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said by BlitzenZeus:

Well people who know don't buy their computer at Worst Buy either as they like to open the box, and modify the system before selling it by putting their software on it, then say it's "Optimized by Geeksquad". Nobody should buy a computer from them as they altered the product, and opened the box.

Where did you hear that from? I don’t normally defend them, but that is blatantly false. Having in worked Computers/Tablets at Worst Buy, that does not happen unless you pay for it and that happens post sale. Some computers come from the factory preloaded with Worst Buy’s software and if you opt to pay extra for the rip off Geek Squad Services, depending on what you want done, it will be opened up and ‘optimized’, but that is only if you want it to be and paid extra for that service.

Product arrives on delivery trucks, inventoried and then is caged on the sales floor, excess inventory is spider wrapped and placed in the media warehouse. At no point from the point of delivery to the sale is merchandise opened up and unboxed unless it is meant to be a display model.
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

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BlitzenZeus

Premium Member

Customers were blatantly told that there were none of them that hadn't been "Optimized" already of certain models, so that means their entire stock was opened box, or they wouldn't let them leave without GeekSquad opening their boxes too. Try old posts on the consumerist, this is not a new thing. They were forcing them to be optimized, and trying to force the upsell through GeekSquad as if they did more than run some stupid snakeoil registry cleaner, while putting some shortcuts on the desktop.

Maybe things have changed, but I really doubt it.
»consumerist.com/2010/01/ ··· f-money/

Michail
Premium Member
join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL

1 edit

1 recommendation

Michail to Mele20

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to Mele20
said by Mele20:

said by Michail:

The only time I use a mouse now is in stuff like Visual Studio, which makes heavy use of hovers.

So, how are you using three or more monitors without a mouse? I suppose you only have one monitor for your desktop computer? How passé.

I've got two on the main desktop. I use a mouse on that system. It's not touch enabled nor do I want to use touch on monitors that big.
Michail

Michail to aurgathor

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I only got my laptop there because it was being sold as an exclusive there and couldn't be purchased anywhere else. But I was actually surprised, it seems the store has changed some. The even seemed to match Amazon's prices on a few things I checked. The cable prices are still a crime.

Also, I only had a couple of factory installed items. Even those were rather minimal.

DownTheShore
Pray for Ukraine
Premium Member
join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ

DownTheShore to aurgathor

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to aurgathor
said by aurgathor:

I also disagree with a target of "computer illiterate" -- nowadays, most people already had some exposure to computers and they are able to perform basic tasks, so there is not very many computer illiterate people left (exc. very young children) but those older people who are truly illiterate, are not particularly likely to start using computers now, so the UI is mostly irrelevant for them.

On the other hand, it will confuses the heck out of most everyone, except those who have significant experience with other touch screen phones or tablets.

I think there are more people comfortable with touch screens than we might assume. Touch screens are used on ATM machines to take care of banking needs, buy stamps, make charitable donations, etc. Touch screens are used in the self-serve supermarket lanes to check out your grocery order. Touch screens are used by customers at WaWa to customize sub sandwich orders. So I don't think that for most people for whom computers are merely a tool and not a passion, there's going to be as much of a problem adapting to the Metro interface as we might assume. It's going to be more of a natural progression.
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
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join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus

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Even if my large desktop monitors were touchscreen I'd find it more annoying to use them for touch, and having to clean fingerprints off them. The keyboard, and mouse is superior for using desktop systems, and fullscreen metro apps were not necessary for the limited functions they tend to do on the desktop. I don't even run my browser in fullscreen.

It's one thing to use a phone, or tablet with a small screen this way, however a desktop is another matter. I like having a slide out keyboard on my phone, and the smaller screens can be really hard to type on. I don't have sausage fingers, but I don't have small hands either which is why the buttons have to generally be big on touchscreens to avoid hitting the wrong one without a stylus. I have to also buy a generally larger mouse for it to be comfortable to use.

Michail
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join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL

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Well, I don't know if it's because I'm an idiot but I really like the metro/modern environment. People knock it without actually getting to know it or use it on the right hardware.

I like traditional desktop too.

When I was a young software developer I observed older developers that were stuck in time. They couldn't let go of their old languages, programming styles and mainframe systems. I promised myself I wouldn't become that some day.

I can use unix if that counts? But I choose not to.