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Gaff
Just like the gypsy woman said

join:1999-09-05
North TX, US
Reviews:
·Suddenlink

1 edit
reply to hortnut

Re: Detained by law enforcement

I will certainly be going back to that area; I've been going there for a couple of years and have a nice little route set up that comes in just under 4 miles, so no I have no reason to avoid it at all. Maybe it is a "high crime area", maybe it isn't, but when I'm out and about walking in this (very) small town I don't have a great many choices when it comes to long walks.

If I see the same officers, or even different officers who try to do the same thing, I will try to do things the same, other than refusing to answer questions.

I understand they have a job to do, but at the same time I wasn't breaking the law, wasn't doing anything I wasn't supposed to be doing, I was just enjoying a nice Texas afternoon and didn't expect the hassle I got. Such is life, but it's certainly not going to deter me. I've lost over 100 lbs so far, and I still have a little way to go; if anything I'll be doing more walking as the weather improves, not less.
--
My PC Gaming Blog
»www.unbooted.com



Hayward
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
kudos:1

And again they were profiling you because you resembled a suspect in a recent crime should have just said so and sorry we need to know who you are.

Random stops it seemed to be is just BS.

By the way you said English but natively so or Ethnic? just out of curiosity?
--


billydunwood

join:2008-04-23
united state
kudos:2

said by Hayward:

And again they were profiling you because you resembled a suspect in a recent crime should have just said so and sorry we need to know who you are.

Random stops it seemed to be is just BS.

Depends. If he resembled the description of a person involved in a crime recently, that is reasonable suspicion to stop him. Personally, I don't think he was.
And by the way, there is no law that says police officer have to tell you why they stopped/arrested you. For all you know you can be stopped and you can think its BS, and you could really match the description of a suspect. It's not always as clear as we think, although in this case I think they violated his rights.
--
No Victim=No Crime


Gaff
Just like the gypsy woman said

join:1999-09-05
North TX, US
Reviews:
·Suddenlink

3 edits
reply to billydunwood

Thanks for your reply.

1) I do believe you are wrong on this point. From research today I found that you must give ID when being arrested in Texas, but not when being detained. Texas Penal Code, Title 8, Chapter 38.02:

quote:
Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
(1) lawfully arrested the person;
(2) lawfully detained the person; or
(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
So in Texas it is an offence to give a false or ficticious name, address or DOB after you have been arrested or detained, but you must only identify yourself after being arrested, not detained.

2) The officer did not ask when he patted me down. How this went down exactly was he directed me to give my ID to the second officer, and after I had done so and replaced my jacket in my wallet he ordered me to turn around and place my hands on top of my head while he patted me down for "weapons". If he had asked I would not have consented, however he did not ask and simply did it.

3) Yes, this was perhaps my biggest mistake. A lesson learned here for me.

4) No, it's a very small bridge with a tiny lip on each side which is where I was tying my shoelaces. After I had finished tying them I stood at the side, directly next to one of these lips, as I looked at my phone. This is why I was somewhat incredulous when he informed me that I was "blocking the highway".

5) I'm not sure how I should approach this in future. What exactly am I meant to say?

6) He was right about this then.

7) I certainly wanted to record it, but he prevented me from doing so (at least the second time). If I had been thinking I would have immediately begun recording as they pulled up to me at the bridge, but I didn't think about it until after I had put it back in my pocket, and he wouldn't let me take it out again.

I do appreciate everyone's responses thus far; I'm not trying to start some big civil liberties debate here, however I also do not want to be accosted when I am breaking no law and simply out walking. Perhaps if my children had been with me (I often take them, but they were at school today so I went alone) they would not have stopped me.

I have contacted the ACLU of Texas and given them all of the information I have given here. I'm not looking to sue anyone, but simply to see if they have any advice to give on how I could have handled the situation better. Most likely I'll get no response, but we'll see what happens. Thanks again for taking a look at it.
--
My PC Gaming Blog
»www.unbooted.com


Gaff
Just like the gypsy woman said

join:1999-09-05
North TX, US

1 edit
reply to Hayward

I am caucasian British, about as white as white gets. My accent is usually what gives me away.
--
My PC Gaming Blog
»www.unbooted.com



Hayward
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
kudos:1

4 edits
reply to billydunwood

quote:
Depends. If he resembled the description of a person involved in a crime recently, that is reasonable suspicion to stop him. Personally, I don't think he was.
Well this is why I asked HIM...not your speculation.... whatever the reason they should say why they why the interest, not just nosing around especially since they should know he is a local there as he is there often, unless both sets new on the beat.

And as he replied above, until he opened his mouth, just any good ol' Texas defined 'mericun

And I went to school with someone from NE Texas, and even when they where then worried about long hair country boy hippie commies more than Mexicans as bad as the southern border today, guess that still exists when someone doesn't meet their NORM.

By the way how did Charlie Daniels who wrote Long Hair Country Boy evolve into 1 step below Ted Nugent ultra conservative crazy????
--


billydunwood

join:2008-04-23
united state
kudos:2
reply to Gaff

1. Brown v Texas. Basically to sum it up, the Supreme Court ruled that the Police Officer in Texas cannot arrest somebody for refusal to identify without reasonable suspicion. This was a US Supreme Court ruling. Esentially it means that they must have at least reasonable suspicion(detention) to identify you.
2. Then the pat down is illegal under Terry v Ohio as they had to have reasonable suspicion you were armed and dangerous.
4. If the bridge is as you say it is, there is no way you were blocking a highway, and it seems to me the stop is illegal.
5. Just say no thanks, I have no weapons, Im not being detained and I can keep my hands in my pocket. Make sure you aren't being detained when you say this, because it's not true if you are being detained.
7. I understand. I wish you had a friend or passerby to record it, but sometimes we aren't that lucky.
Im glad you contacted the ACLU, but they usually don't step in unless it's relatively high profile or could become that. They probably get 1000 emails on a daily basis of people who claim to be illegally stopped. I hope you never have to encounter this again!
--
No Victim=No Crime



Gaff
Just like the gypsy woman said

join:1999-09-05
North TX, US
Reviews:
·Suddenlink

Thanks again.

Next time I go down that way I will take a couple of pictures of the bridge. This thread will probably have died by then, but I will have them for my own records.
--
My PC Gaming Blog
»www.unbooted.com


billydunwood

join:2008-04-23
united state
kudos:2

said by Gaff:

Thanks again.

Next time I go down that way I will take a couple of pictures of the bridge. This thread will probably have died by then, but I will have them for my own records.

Don't be alarmed if they try and detain you for taking pictures of the bridge either. But that's not a crime nor reasonable suspicion, so you shouldn't have much to worry about.
--
No Victim=No Crime


Gaff
Just like the gypsy woman said

join:1999-09-05
North TX, US
Reviews:
·Suddenlink

After considering it I think I am going to file a formal complaint with the Sheriff's Department tomorrow.

I don't really expect it to go anywhere, because this is a podunk little town in a podunk little county, but I'm the sort of person who has a strong anti-authoritarian streak and I don't consider what happened to be fair or correct, and I cannot in good conscience do nothing about it.

Heck, I almost pursued a career as a police officer back when I lived in the UK, and I studied aspects of criminal justice at university (I have a degree in politics and contemporary governance), so this isn't exactly a subject I know absolutely nothing about.
--
My PC Gaming Blog
»www.unbooted.com



beerbum
Premium
join:2000-05-06
Reading, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Gaff

said by Gaff:

4) No, it's a very small bridge with a tiny lip on each side which is where I was tying my shoelaces. After I had finished tying them I stood at the side, directly next to one of these lips, as I looked at my phone. This is why I was somewhat incredulous when he informed me that I was "blocking the highway".

I will say this.. You are lucky the officer did not think that he "detected the odor or marijuana" during either encounter.. here in PA that is the latest craze among law enforcement. All they have to do is claim to have smelled marijuana on you to give them an excuse to mess with you any way they see fit.

It's wrong but that is how it is, and unfortunately nobody seems to want to do anything about that sort of abuse.


Xioden
Premium
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY
kudos:1

It would take someone in each state to fight it to the highest state court, at which point they will stop the appeals process as not to set precedence on a federal level.

The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruled earlier last year that the smell of Marijuana is not sufficient cause for a search (Commonwealth v. Cruz)



Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to Gaff

same thing happened to me they thought I was underage tell they saw I was over 18 they backed off after that I insulted them about their weight
--
Live Free or Die Hard...



Booost

@151.190.40.x
reply to Gaff

If you live in the town, I would suggest that you contact the mayor, describe what happened, and explain how you have the right to walk down the street without being stopped by the police for no reason. Ask him to contact the Sheriffs department to express your concerns about the rights of his citizens.

Filing a formal complaint is not a good idea.



OldCableGuy2

@communications.net
reply to Gaff

Is this an autism support group? Why the heck would you antagonize a cop by refusing to show your ID?

I have seen first hand what cops do when anyone questions them, they will physically attack and they have the rule of law on their side. I've seen college kids who required months of hospitalization for pulling the "am I being detained" BS from youtube.

Just answer their questions. Provide your ID. But on your big boy clothes and act like an adult. If they're violating your rights, that's what a lawsuit afterword is for. Do you think taking out your cop-hate on the beat cop is going to make a difference? Wow, you wasted an hour of your time, and nothing will change. Get your rights violated, then sue for a couple million dollars -- and that might actually get things changed.


Liberty

join:2005-06-12
Tucson, AZ
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to Gaff

My Texas story, cliff notes version.
Half hour outside Amarillo where I intended to spend night, I get pulled over for bs traffic violation - he profiled me.
Wants to look in my trunk which I refuse.

While waiting 3 hours for drug dogs to arrive he has the pleasure of listening to my political views.
I could see him boiling but he remain civil.

Once dogs gave the all clear he went off on me big time about all the wasted time.

Sometimes it is not convenient but we must stand our ground if we wish to protect our rights.


tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to OldCableGuy2

said by OldCableGuy2 :

Is this an autism support group? Why the heck would you antagonize a cop by refusing to show your ID?

Just answer their questions. Provide your ID. But on your big boy clothes and act like an adult. If they're violating your rights, that's what a lawsuit afterword is for.

First, how is exercising a right guaranteed in the Constitution, "antagonizing"? Actually, detaining someone illegally is antagonizing. Think about that. What makes the situation worse is when people just let it be done. At that point we have given up that right and it's completely ignored.

Keeping your Constitutional rights in tact is not acting like an adult? Heck, it's really the opposite. When you allow _your_ rights to be violated then you do a disservice to everyone one else. I think you are confusing being polite and an adult as being the opposite of keeping your rights.

Filing a lawsuit every time you are illegally detained is not the correct way to stop it from happening as it's not practical. Better to stop the illegal acts _before_ they are completed.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to beerbum

said by beerbum:

It's wrong but that is how it is, and unfortunately nobody seems to want to do anything about that sort of abuse.

It only happens... when it's allowed to happen. When people don't do anything about it, it will continue.


OldCableGuy2

@communications.net
reply to tcope

Well then enjoy making a bad situation worse. Refusing to cooperate with the police is a guaranteed way to get yourself AT THE BEST added to the list of people they harass. At the worst, you'll end up flat on the ground, with a couple pairs of boots up your behind, missing several teeth and in cuffs for "resisting arrest" I have seen it way too many times. It's great you all passed your highschool constitutional law class, but next year when you cover psychology in your junior year, you'll understand why you don't mess with bullies (cops)



OldCableGuy2

@communications.net
reply to beerbum

DO NOT EVER FILE A COMPLAINT AGAINST YOUR POLICE DEPARTMENT.

My neighbor did this when he was 19, 20 years later he still gets pulled over any time he passes a police car while they check everything they're legally allowed to -- including tread depth. Takes about 2 1/2 to 3 hours EACH TIME regardless of if he is headed to work, pick up the kids, etc. Has made his life practically he*l



Camaro
Question everything
Premium
join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA
kudos:1
reply to Xioden

It has also been decriminalized, if you have a ounce or less all you get is a $100 fine and they take it. So now the cops actually have time to catch the real criminals around here.


Timmn

join:2000-04-23
Tinley Park, IL
Reviews:
·DIRECTV
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to Liberty

said by Liberty:

Once dogs gave the all clear he went off on me big time about all the wasted time.

You were lucky, because the person who determines if the dog smelled drugs or not is a cop.

Timmn

join:2000-04-23
Tinley Park, IL
Reviews:
·DIRECTV
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to OldCableGuy2

said by OldCableGuy2 :

DO NOT EVER FILE A COMPLAINT AGAINST YOUR POLICE DEPARTMENT.

Don't ever do anything to get a cop fired, his fellow officers will really make your life a living hell. I can tell you that from experience.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to OldCableGuy2

said by OldCableGuy2 :

Well then enjoy making a bad situation worse. Refusing to cooperate with the police is a guaranteed way to get yourself AT THE BEST added to the list of people they harass.


Why should the police have any list of people they harass? That is kind of the point in my post... there are groups of people that (some) police harass. The point is, how long and expansive do you want this list to be? Do you want to be pulled over while driving to work every day so the police can search your vehicle? Do you want to be stopped every time you exist a restaurant and submit to a DUI test? Do you want to be stopped and frisked every time you walk in the park? Things like this don't happen overnight. It starts with police illegally detaining people because they think they look like a criminal. If no resistance to that, it moves on to simply stopping more and more people because that might find something to cite or arrest them for.

This "list" you mention is not really a physical list. I think it's actually people who the police target based on who they charactirize as have crimminal tendencies. To some this might mean you are black or hispanic. To others it might mean you dress poorly or walk with your pants half down. Might also include people who voice their opinions if the police don't agree with them. At what point does this "list" become too long? Think about lists... once they start they continue to grow. The "list" should not exist in the first place. So you may not be on the list yet but this is no reason to ignore that it exists.

said by OldCableGuy2 :

At the worst, you'll end up flat on the ground, with a couple pairs of boots up your behind, missing several teeth and in cuffs for "resisting arrest" I have seen it way too many times.


For exercising your right not to ID yourself when it's not required or refusing to exercise the rights guaranteed you in the Constitution? Then you've seen first hand how not exercising those rights means they are lost.

Some people are going to read what I wrote as me saying you should be rude and arrogent toward police. I'm not saying that at all. But as the OP mentioned, politly asking the police if you are being detained and if not, informing them that you'd rather not ID yourself is the way to address the situation. Might even want to ask them why they are asking for ID.


beck
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-29
On The Road
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Stablehost.com
reply to Gaff

I see it as 6 of one and half dozen of the other.

If I was living in that neighborhood, I bet I would be glad to see/know the cops stopped some wandering/walking person. That is their job to keep me safe. How do you know someone didn't call them because they wanted to know what you were doing?

If I were the one walking, I would probably be bent out of shape. Not sure if I would have coughed up my ID the first time or not. What kind of police state is this when you can't just walk down the road?

Cops have an attitude because they are cops. Some are nice and some aren't. Some are just tired. But if you had a cop that had the attitude to "Oh, my, that bad guy looks scarey to me, I'm out of here." what would that be? Cops don't stop, and for good or bad, that is a thing you look for in one. They are suspicious as a rule. And yes, they DO lay down their lives for us every day.
--
Are YOU just a turkey voting for xmas?



OldCableGuy2

@communications.net
reply to tcope

Discussion of if rights are "lost" is academic at best. At the end of the day, the cop is the one with the gun, you'd be stupid not to do exactly what they say. If your rights are violated, that is what the ACLU is there to resolve, after the fact. But no one has EVER persuaded a police department to stop an unconstitutional practice by being a pain for the beat cop. NEVER.


Midniteoyl

join:2013-11-22
Knox, IN
kudos:1
reply to Gaff

You very well could have 'went downtown for further questioning', yes.. Arrested? No, prolly not.



DannyZ
Gentoo Fanboy
Premium
join:2003-01-29
Erie, PA
reply to tcope

It pays to remember to ask the cop if his request is a "lawful order". If it is not, you do not have to comply. This is one thing an officer is not allowed to lie about, so you will usually get a straight answer.
--
Out the 10BaseT, through the modem, down the co-ax, over the fiber, across the backhaul, past the edge router, off the network...nothing but net


Midniteoyl

join:2013-11-22
Knox, IN
kudos:1

said by DannyZ:

It pays to remember to ask the cop if his request is a "lawful order". If it is not, you do not have to comply. This is one thing an officer is not allowed to lie about, so you will usually get a straight answer.

What????

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to DannyZ

said by DannyZ:

It pays to remember to ask the cop if his request is a "lawful order". If it is not, you do not have to comply. This is one thing an officer is not allowed to lie about, so you will usually get a straight answer.

I don't disagree at all and you are 100% correct. But the issue is also that some officers are going to flat out lie. They will tell you that you are required to show ID and then will also become defensive and some will also tell you it's a lawful order. I think a good response to an officers telling you it's a lawful order is to then ask what crime you are being suspected of. If they refuse to explain this, then it's probably not a lawful order. That is, it's very easy for an officer to lie... it's _very_ difficult to then _prove_ that they lied. That is, in many cases the problem needs to be stopped before it happens or as it's happening rather then trying to adjust it after it's happened. But doing that leads to a very thin line a person walks.

Yet another reason why many courts allow video taping of public officials with no consent.