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DannyZ
Gentoo Fanboy
Premium
join:2003-01-29
Erie, PA

1 recommendation

reply to Midniteoyl

Re: Detained by law enforcement

It's very simple. An officer tells you to produce ID, you ask if it is a "lawful order". If it's not, you can refuse.

A "lawful order" is one which you must obey; failure to do so results in a disorderly conduct charge or worse. An officer is not permitted to lie about whether or not something is a lawful order.

Believe me, this one has come in handy more than once for me. As soon as I ask it (always respectfully), the officer's attitude tends to become much less confrontational. I imagine it's because they realize they are not dealing with someone who they can intimidate, but with someone who knows and protects their own rights.
--
Out the 10BaseT, through the modem, down the co-ax, over the fiber, across the backhaul, past the edge router, off the network...nothing but net


DannyZ
Gentoo Fanboy
Premium
join:2003-01-29
Erie, PA
reply to tcope
Yes, being able to prove what the officer said is key. It's unfortunate that we live in a day and age where it serves to be able to record any interaction with a LEO officer, but as they continue to erode our rights it is proving to be more and more necessary for more people, not just the traditional profiled demographics as the OP shows.
--
Out the 10BaseT, through the modem, down the co-ax, over the fiber, across the backhaul, past the edge router, off the network...nothing but net

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
Been thinking about this.... and I would not have thought about this at the time in the OP's situation. But the officers wanted the OP to produce ID. I suspect it was in his pocket at best. Later, when he asked to get his phone to record video they would not allow him to reach in his pocket. Odd, huh.

I'd suggest using their own tactics against them. When they asked for ID, ask if you can go into your pocket. They would think the person is getting his/her wallet so they would agree. Then just pull out your phone and start recording. You never said you were going in your pocket (backpack, etc) for your ID.

PX Eliezer
Premium
join:2013-03-10
Graustark
kudos:7
Reviews:
·localphone.com
·Callcentric
·Optimum Voice
·callwithus
said by tcope:

I'd suggest using their own tactics against them. When they asked for ID, ask if you can go into your pocket. They would think the person is getting his/her wallet so they would agree. Then just pull out your phone and start recording. You never said you were going in your pocket (backpack, etc) for your ID.

That's a great way to get shot.

Not even saying the officers would be wrong to do it.

Their reflex reaction is going to be that you are pulling out a weapon.

And some other police officers might just start whaling the tar out of you, for getting cute that way, constitutional protections notwithstanding.

-----

I greatly admire the OP for standing up for his rights. But it's not worth getting killed for, in this specific instance.

Mmmph, if this is what happens to a white guy in Texas, imagine what happens to a black guy. And for that matter, we've had years of this in the great liberal northern city of New York....

Midniteoyl

join:2013-11-22
Knox, IN
kudos:1
reply to DannyZ
said by DannyZ:

It's very simple. An officer tells you to produce ID, you ask if it is a "lawful order". If it's not, you can refuse.

A "lawful order" is one which you must obey; failure to do so results in a disorderly conduct charge or worse. An officer is not permitted to lie about whether or not something is a lawful order.

I got that part.. It was the 'they cannot lie' part that got me

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to PX Eliezer
Sp when an officer asks for ID, the person asks if they can go into their pocket and this is allowed then when the person removes a cell phone instead of a DL its okay for the officer to shoot the person? You may want to look into the police dept's guidelines on drawing their guns and using deadly force. A cell phone looks nothing like a gun... it actually looks much more like a DL.

As far as your comment about getting beat up by an officer for removing a cell phone from your pocket... I'll just leave that as you attempting to troll.


beerbum
Premium
join:2000-05-06
Reading, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to OldCableGuy2
said by OldCableGuy2 :

Just answer their questions. Provide your ID.

And just what is someone to do if they happen to not be carrying any ID?

Where I live, there are no laws that require a person to carry any form of identification whatsoever.

many times I will go for a walk or go ride my bicycle and I do not carry any identification card - as I said, there is no law requiring that I do. Last time I checked, I live in Pennsylvania, not East Germany of the 80's..


DannyZ
Gentoo Fanboy
Premium
join:2003-01-29
Erie, PA
reply to Midniteoyl
Gotcha. That's why I didn't say cannot, I said not permitted


Gaff
Just like the gypsy woman said

join:1999-09-05
North TX, US
Reviews:
·Suddenlink

1 edit

3 recommendations

reply to Gaff
I just wanted to thank everyone again for their responses; I always appreciate multiple opinions, especially when they differ from my own.

I regard myself as a principled person. There are some things I can go along with, and some things I cannot. This was not always the case. I used to be someone who let anyone else walk over them. My mom always said that there would come a time in my life where I wouldn't be ok with that anymore, and she was right.

After the death of my wife when she was barely 30, I hardened up considerably. As a single father of two young children I place a high value on my personal liberty, and being deprived of it, even for less than ten minutes, is not something I appreciate, particularly when it seems to be for a BS reason as happened yesterday.

I know how to play a long game, and have used this to my advantage on various occasions in the past. Does it always work? No, but it's worked many more times than it hasn't. If there's blowback over my actions then I'll deal with that if and when the time arises. I am someone who has the means to be able to file a lawsuit should the need arise, but I very confident that that will not be needed in this case.

I try to generally live by a couple of mantras: "if you stand for nothing you'll fall for anything", and "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you". Some might call me "principled", others "tenacious", and yet more "a real pain in the goddamn ass"; all three are likely true. If this were five years ago I would not have posted and we would not be having this conversation, but things have changed and I have changed with them.

I spoke to a supervisor at the Sheriff's Department earlier today who is going to call me back with an interim over exactly what happened, and I will also be writing to the Mayor's office (thanks for the suggestion Booost) and perhaps adding in a letter to the local newspaper for good measure.

I believe that, when it comes to constitutional rights, it's "use them or lose them", and I am finished with being someone who rolls over whenever anyone else says "jump".
--
My PC Gaming Blog
»www.unbooted.com


OldCableGuy2

@communications.net
You have kids and are going to mess with the cops? Are you for real? There is a reason why they call them the GANG IN BLUE.

It'd be a shame if the police got an anonymous tip that you were downloading child porn. I'm sure the media in whatever town you live in will be sure to run the follow up story 3 years later when they dismiss the case due to lack of evidence. Oh, wait.... they won't. The cops have all the power, you have none of the power. You might think you're taking a principal stand, but when you have kids your #1 concern should be trying to be a good parent for them, antagonizing cops who have the authority, power, and time to completely destroy your life is simply foolish.


Gaff
Just like the gypsy woman said

join:1999-09-05
North TX, US
Reviews:
·Suddenlink
I regard the actions that I am taking as being the definition of being a good parent. The US is not yet a "papers, please" state, and I have no intention of contributing to its movement in that direction.
--
My PC Gaming Blog
»www.unbooted.com
Expand your moderator at work

billydunwood

join:2008-04-23
united state
kudos:2
reply to OldCableGuy2

Re: Detained by law enforcement

said by OldCableGuy2 :

Is this an autism support group? Why the heck would you antagonize a cop by refusing to show your ID?

I have seen first hand what cops do when anyone questions them, they will physically attack and they have the rule of law on their side. I've seen college kids who required months of hospitalization for pulling the "am I being detained" BS from youtube.

Just answer their questions. Provide your ID. But on your big boy clothes and act like an adult. If they're violating your rights, that's what a lawsuit afterword is for. Do you think taking out your cop-hate on the beat cop is going to make a difference? Wow, you wasted an hour of your time, and nothing will change. Get your rights violated, then sue for a couple million dollars -- and that might actually get things changed.

He would have legal standing to sue, but no damages. To successfully sue you need both damages and standing. And I will never just bend down and give away my rights
--
No Victim=No Crime

Zach1
Premium
join:2006-11-26
NW Minnesota
reply to Gaff
said by Gaff:

I regard the actions that I am taking as being the definition of being a good parent. The US is not yet a "papers, please" state, and I have no intention of contributing to its movement in that direction.

As someone who made a choice to come here and worked to attain US citizenship, I sincerely appreciate your efforts to preserve what remains of the freedoms this country offers. It's disturbing that so many of those native to the country fail to understand what's ultimately at stake. I must admit, until reading your topic, I probably would have shown ID without much of a thought.
--
Zach


seephone

@comcast.net
reply to Gaff
check to see about the refusal to let you record.
--
but note also something you not mentioned yet: like the old question of can I look in your trunk,
they often ask now: "can I see your phone?", and if you say yes, that gives them permission to look at your calls and contacts and texts and bookmarks etc. to, since you gave permission.
Expand your moderator at work


CompUser

join:2001-11-07
Ada, OH
reply to towerdave

Re: Detained by law enforcement



Gaff
Just like the gypsy woman said

join:1999-09-05
North TX, US
Reviews:
·Suddenlink
reply to seephone
Certainly I would have refused him permission to search me or my phone. Even if I had given it to him it was locked, and I don't give up passwords without a warrant.

It seems the local newspaper might be interested in running a story about it; I'll see if anything comes of that.
--
My PC Gaming Blog
»www.unbooted.com

PX Eliezer
Premium
join:2013-03-10
Graustark
kudos:7
Reviews:
·localphone.com
·Callcentric
·Optimum Voice
·callwithus
reply to tcope
said by tcope:

Sp when an officer asks for ID, the person asks if they can go into their pocket and this is allowed then when the person removes a cell phone instead of a DL its okay for the officer to shoot the person?

I said it could be a reflex action.

And here's a stun gun made to look like a cell phone. You can buy it on Amazon.
»www.amazon.com/Guard-Dog-Securit···03XI5RYK

said by tcope:

As far as your comment about getting beat up by an officer for removing a cell phone from your pocket... I'll just leave that as you attempting to troll.

Cops beat up people all the time. That's how we got the Rodney King incident and a zillion others since then.

And one main reason that cops flip out is someone being a real wiseass with them.

Human nature.

I'm not endorsing it---and surely not trolling---but if you can't understand this then you don't understand human nature.


ArkhmAsylm
Evrythng I need isn't really what I want

join:2006-02-22
Saint Paul, MN
reply to 85281231
Liberty is never having to say or do something "because it's easier".
--
*Tap, Tap, Tap* Is this thing on?

PX Eliezer
Premium
join:2013-03-10
Graustark
kudos:7
Reviews:
·localphone.com
·Callcentric
·Optimum Voice
·callwithus
reply to tcope
said by tcope:

As far as your comment about getting beat up by an officer for removing a cell phone from your pocket... I'll just leave that as you attempting to troll.

Here ya go, my friend, also happened in Texas by the way even though it's a UK paper:

»www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article···elf.html

This girl got beat up for jaywalking.... Photos included.


Tex
Dave's not here
Premium
join:2012-10-20
kudos:2
Where does it say she was beaten?


DannyZ
Gentoo Fanboy
Premium
join:2003-01-29
Erie, PA
reply to PX Eliezer
I can't seem to find the part where she was beat up. In fact, the eyewitness never mentions that on his blog either »chlorineoverdose.blogspot.com/20···html?m=1
--
Out the 10BaseT, through the modem, down the co-ax, over the fiber, across the backhaul, past the edge router, off the network...nothing but net

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to PX Eliezer
That is nothing like either of were discussing. Police attempted to cite her (different), she did not stop (different) and, in effect was running away (different). They did not "beat" her for resisting (different). They apprehended her in order to give her a citation.

It's not even close.

What you mention is the police beating someone just because the person did not willfully ID themselves.

Not even close to this.

I'm not say that does not happen but 1) it's not what we are talking about and 2) it does not mean a person should submit to illegal detainment and unlawful ID'ing.


Gwai Lo Dan

join:2007-01-24
L5B 0C8

1 edit

3 recommendations

reply to towerdave
said by towerdave:

Now, you've pissed me off, so if I see you getting beat up, I'll help, but I might go easy on the gas in my car to get there to save the fine taxpayers some money.

You're a pretty bad cop if your personal feelings and grudges influence whether you'll do your best "to serve and protect". Should a physician be a little slower in operating on you for an abdominal gun shot wound because he remembered you gave him a ticket?


Gwai Lo Dan

join:2007-01-24
L5B 0C8

1 recommendation

reply to Gaff
said by Gaff:

I believe that, when it comes to constitutional rights, it's "use them or lose them", and I am finished with being someone who rolls over whenever anyone else says "jump".

Not being American, I am am little surprised by Americans saying to you to do the easy thing and just give your id. They sing of bombs bursting in air, and the flag is still there. Me, I would care more about my head still being there than the flag! And Americans say live free or die, and give me liberty or give me death. So I am surprised to hear Americans say here to not exercise your rights.


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:14
reply to OldCableGuy2
said by OldCableGuy2 :

Refusing to cooperate with the police is a guaranteed way to get yourself AT THE BEST added to the list of people they harass.

And what exactly would happen if every single person they stopped exercised their constitutional rights instead of just rolling over? Would the cops add everyone to their "list?" That list would get rather long real quick.

Use them or lose them. Cops can only have a list if most people roll over.

/M


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:14
reply to OldCableGuy2
said by OldCableGuy2 :

DO NOT EVER FILE A COMPLAINT AGAINST YOUR POLICE DEPARTMENT.

said by OldCableGuy2 :

If your rights are violated, that is what the ACLU is there to resolve, after the fact.

So which is it?

/M


exocet_cm
Free at last, free at last
Premium
join:2003-03-23
New Orleans, LA
kudos:3

1 edit

2 recommendations

reply to Gaff
quote:
As part of my exercise routine I have taken to doing long walks (3-4-5 miles) around town. I was out and about today, walking around a place I've walked around plenty of times before, when I saw a Sheriff's Deputy cruiser go past me. I noticed it, and carried on walking. A couple of minutes later another Sheriff's Deputy cruiser came towards me in the opposite direction and drove past (it was probably the same one, but I'm not 100%). Again, I carry on walking. Finally, a different Sheriff's Deputy cruiser pulls up directly in front of me, and indicates I should stop. I then notice that the first Sheriff's Deputy has pulled up behind me, so I'm sandwiched between the two.
If the stop they conducted was legal, you might have matched the profile of a suspect in the area that they were looking for? No idea what the reasoning for the stop is. Just not enough information here.

quote:
I stood there, stopped my podcast (I had a Bluetooth headset on) and waited. One of the officers approached me and said something like “What are you doing out here today”, to which I said something like “Walking”.
This is usually referred to as a "police-citizen" contact. Granted it doesn't usually occur in these circumstances (boxed in by units). See my next reply.

quote:
He then said “Do you have ID on you?”, to which I replied, “Yes”. He said “Can I see it?”.
So now the officer, if legally justified to have initiated a stop, is probably doing so under "reasonable suspicion". You can Google it but to sum it up reasonable suspicion is any suspicion that an officer believes that a crime has occurred, is occurring, or is about to occur. Such as a crime has occurred (you match the description of a suspect that had committed a crime in the past, wanted subject), is occurring (maybe running from a crime scene such as robbing a bank), or is about to occur (you're running towards a gas station with a weapon). The whole "stop" sounds like a Terry Stop. Read about it here: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

quote:
At this point I asked him “Am I being detained?” and he replied “I'm just asking a question”.
In my opinion, which in no way reflects that of my employer, sounds like a justification is trying to be made for the stop.

quote:
The other officer, as he was walking away from me, told me to take my hands out of my pockets, which I did.
For officer safety reasons.

quote:
They talked for about a minute, before the officer who had been speaking to me came back and said something like “You aren't being detained, but we would like to see your ID”.
So the officer is, maybe, still doing this under the umbrella of reasonable suspicion. Law varies by jurisdiction. Read Terry Stop: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

quote:
I asked “So I'm free to go?” He said “Yes”, at which point I told him to enjoy his afternoon, turned around, started my podcast and continued to walk down the road.
In my mind I thought “Bullet = dodged” and that was that.

At the end of the street that I was on was a small bridge, at which I usually stop for a few minutes before turning around to head home. One of my shoelaces was loose, so I got to the bridge, stood to the side, untied both of my shoelaces and re-tied them. I finished this and took a look at my phone, saw I had a text and started to read it. At this point the two Sheriff's Deputy cruisers pulled up to the bridge, got out of their cars and approached me again. The second officer (the one I had not spoken with earlier) told me that now I was blocking a public highway, was being detained, and said I had to give him my ID.
If it were me I would now go file a complaint with the department's internal affairs unit. If the department is small in size, I would approach the state inspector general's office.

quote:
I took my ID out of my wallet, gave it to the first officer, put my wallet back in my jacket and then the second officer told me to put my hands on my head and turn around so he could pat me down for weapons. I complied, and of course he found nothing. When he was done I asked him if I could take my cellphone out of my pocket. He told me no, that because I was being detained I couldn't make any calls at this time. I replied that I was not going to make a call but was instead going to start recording. He said no, and that there was no need because I was currently being recorded by the dashcam from his car and also the mic on his jacket. I replied that I didn't doubt what he said but I wanted to make my own recording. He again said “No”.
You have every legal right to record the interaction. As far as taking your camera out of your pocket, they might justify using force (non-deadly or deadly) if they were to believe this was a weapon. To me it sounds like BS though. Again, I would file a complaint at this point.

The rest of the story is history. Again, in my professional, not official, opinion, I would think, with the limited amount of information at the beginning of the encounter as we only have your side of the story, the interaction might be legal.
The second encounter I would call fishy. If this were me, but it isn't, my next step from this thread would be to file a complaint. A complaint doesn't mean the officers were wrong... or right. An investigation, if one is initiated, is going to review the entire encounter. At the conclusion of the investigation, recommendations are going to be made on how to improve similar situations or, if the officers were wrong, might result in disciplinary actions from verbal reprimand to suspension.

Touch base with there Internal Affairs or your state IG.
Sorry for any spelling mistakes or confusing responses. It's been a long day. :\

If you are still confused or have more questions, feel free to contact me via PM.
--
"I have often regretted my speech, never my silence." - Xenocrates
My wife's Etsy shop: »www.laurenCball.com ; After-hours tech: »www.JLTCtech.com ; My blog: »www.johndball.com