I've been following this thread since yesterday and have come to some personal realizations. Had I been in your place, I probably would have willingly shown my ID no questions asked. Now, I'm not so sure. I'm not usually one for confrontation so I really have no idea what I would do in the spur of the moment.
That said, unless I'm simply out in my yard I probably have my ID on me so I'd never be in a situation where I couldn't produce it at any time. And I would question why they would want to see my ID when I'm at my own house. Neighbors all know me so no one would have called the cops on me for suspicious activities or anything like that. And if there is valid reason, it's a simple trip inside (without the officer) to my desk or bedside table to grab my wallet.
Not that my ID would do much good to prove where I'm currently residing. It's a GA license and still shows my old Stone Mountain address, not my current Lanett, AL address. And yeah, I know I need to get it changed. Plan to do that at the end of the month when I go get a tag for my new vehicle.
You've gotten a lot of advice here and it's always good to get (and listen to, which you are) advice contrary to your own viewpoint. I don't know if you know this (it's fairly easy to find out without me telling you, so I hope he isn't upset with this), but you've gotten some special advice too. Make sure you read over exocet_cm 's reply to you.
Why? He happens to be a New Orleans police officer and has given you some valuable insight into what likely happened and how you should handle things going forward. I say "likely happened" because honestly you were the only one there that is present here in this discussion so we only have your word to go on. I have no reason to doubt your account of the events (as I assume no one else does) but that means no one here giving you advice has first hand knowledge of the situation as it happened (unbiased third party observer basically).
One of the strangest threads I've ever read on this site.
Given how obviously racist the Stop and Frisk laws are in practice, the OP's refusal or reluctance to comply rises to a moral imperative. Getting advice from a good lawyer in advance might include a localized printed "bust card" which one can hand over. "I invoke my rights, etcetera ..." just as the OP wrote very well. Bravo!
• How is it that no one here has given actually useful information on how to nail crooked cops via clandestine recordings of such abusive violations of human, civil, and Constitutional rights by the use of small devices hidden upon the person and disguised as something else to avoid being stolen and destroyed or 'lost' by rogue cops, as so often happens?
There have been many, many cases where police were ruled by courts to have abused rights by intimidation, terroristic threatening abuse, and even violence committed upon subjects and passersby who were exercising their right to peacably record the conduct of a public official in a public place from a respectful distance. We all understand how one has "no expectation of privacy" and so this should be quite obvious.
Indeed, I have read every reply on this thread, and will continue to do so. I knew it would bring out a couple of anti-government / law enforcement crazies, but I read those replies anyway.
I did thank exocet_cm last night when I first saw his response. He has given me some additional ideas for redress that I will pursue should I not receive a satisfactory response from the irons I have in the fire at the moment.
It's a nice day out, so I'm planning to walk down that way later this afternoon, and I'm going to take some photos of the bridge whilst I'm down there. -- My PC Gaming Blog »www.unbooted.com
No one thought to just ask the cops 'Why am I being stopped and questioned'? Everyone seems to be either 'show the damn ID' or 'Leave me alone'.. What about simply asking 'Why'? After your answer, you can then decide if its worth it to show ID/answer questions/etc or not.
Every time I have ever been stopped, I have either been told right away why I was stopped, or, was told after I asked politely.
Same here. Never any problems. Start with introducing myself. They quickly explain. Hand them my DL initially after that they don't ask to see it unless it's someone new. Have no reason to walk or run so far from home though and I always stay in my zip ode. Occasions walk to the river park or the walk/run/bike trail within 15 minute walk. Rather 5-10 minute walk to the cafés or restaurants than drive. If they know who I am they can focus on others. They honk and I wave. Quick response time to home.
I don't get what the big deal is. Why do you feel the need to be above the law? Is your goal in life to feel superior to others? Or is it to live comfortably?
You did nothing wrong, so why did you feel compelled to decline to answer a few simple questions that would have cleared things up rather than raise suspicions? Most police officers are there to keep the peace, not plant drugs on you to frame you.
First, Sorry for your loss. Second, Welcome to America. Its usually a great place.
Im 48, and up until 2 years ago, I could have said this has never happened to me where I live. But it did. My story was very similar to yours, my response was almost exactly as yours. It didnt feel right, but I was trying to do the right thing, since I respect the law and since I knew I hadnt done anything wrong anyhow. Yet, after it was over, I really felt violated.
I would support whatever you decide to do, either way. I "get" everybody elses post here too. But its your life, use your conscious and weigh the impact your decisions will have on your kids. Know that no poster here will be physically behind you with what ever path you choose, so it is very easy for them to type.
Personally, I let it go. I carried on with my life and decided not to let their (officers) bad judgement influence my future any further than the 20 minutes they wasted. Within a few weeks after this event, my life was turned upside down with my wife almost losing her life. Ive never thought about it again until coming across your post. Their event wasnt ever really part of my life path. I had more important things going on.
Was it wrong what happened to both of us? yes. Were the officers wrong? parts yes, some parts no. Did they have malicious intent? probably not. Does that make it ok? No. Would this every happen again to you or me? Probably not. If it does happen again, to you, then there is a bigger problem and its time to turn up the response.
You sound like you have a level head. You will make the right decision for you and your family. I look forward to following any future posts or correspondence from you.
I think the video shows the balance between asserting your rights, asking the officer about your rights ("am I free to go?"), and acquiescing even if you think you are legally right as you will then have the opportunity to have the evidence thrown out.
I had an interesting discussion with the police once, which ended well. I was stopped in a spot check for drunk drivers. When asked if I had been drinking, I said I had 2 beers earlier in the afternoon. When brought to the car to blow a breathalyzer, I asked if I had the right to legal counsel before blowing. One officer said no, that I would be charged if I didn't blow, whereas the more senior officer corrected him and said that yes I could be taken to the police station for legal counsel first. He was fine with explaining my rights and no issue with my questions. Then I blew a 0.0% (since the 2 beers were about 6 hours earlier) and he laughed.
Another funny story was when an officer rolled up beside me while I was jogging on a cold, dark, rainy night just outside the city limits. He slowly pulled up beside me and said out his window, "you must really like jogging!". While continuing to jog, I replied "yup!". Not sure if that was his only question, or whether it seemed suspicious so he wanted to see my reaction.
You did nothing wrong, so why did you feel compelled to decline to answer a few simple questions that would have cleared things up rather than raise suspicions?
Ah yes, the "only those with something to hide exercise their rights" argument. He did nothing wrong, so why should he be forced to go along with their fishing expedition?
If you feel so strongly about this then why aren't you petitioning your congresspeople demanding that these rights be revoked and a law passed that forces people to show their papers whenever they're requested? I mean, if you did nothing wrong you should have nothing to hide, right?
At the end of the street that I was on was a small bridge, at which I usually stop for a few minutes before turning around to head home. One of my shoelaces was loose, so I got to the bridge, stood to the side, untied both of my shoelaces and re-tied them. I finished this and took a look at my phone, saw I had a text and started to read it. At this point the two Sheriff's Deputy cruisers pulled up to the bridge, got out of their cars and approached me again. The second officer (the one I had not spoken with earlier) told me that now I was blocking a public highway, was being detained, and said I had to give him my ID.
Looking at your pictures, that would have been correct. There is no safe place to stop on that bridge and you were not moving, therefore blocking the highway. Likely ignored most of the time, but you antagonized them earlier, so...
I'm not a lawyer and nothing contained here is legal advice but merely common opinion and references and you should seek legal advice in your locality.
To reply to the member inferring they would be glad a random person walking in their neighborhood was stopped and questioned... That is one of the most appalling things I have heard. Would you appreciate the police stopping you every time you drove out your driveway...oh but they just need to check to see if you have a license. Would you appreciate and be supportive of the police stopping you on your way to pick up your kid from school. Then they hold you there for 45min to search your car just to see if you happen to have any illegal contents. Would you be appreciative of getting stopped by all 3 officers on your 3 mile trip to your kid's school. Well they just need to check right??? Would you be supportive of an ignition interrupter installed in every single vehicle? You know the DUI blow devices. So every time you got in your car you had to blow in this device to start it. Well it would prevent a drunk from driving your car right??? Let me guess your first statement would be but why I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING.
This is why the police can't stop any random person. Because the original founding fathers knew the Police State that would lead to. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's why they have to have an articulable reason to stop you, also referred to as RAS(reasonable articulable suspicion). That HAS to be based on more than a mere hunch. They don't have to disclose it to you but it has to be there. If the officers had a reason in this case...they would have detained him at the first stop. But obviously they didn't. So then they had to stretch and make something up. Why do they do this? It's mostly due to the performance based policing programs most departments use. They are required to have a certain number of citizen contacts, detainments and arrests per shift, per week, per month. If you don't meet those levels you get talked to and verbally berated, called out in front of your peers etc and possibly written up. I went to a wedding of a relative that is LEO. His chief at the reception stood up introduced himself and in his second sentence said the groom(officer)was the top ticket writer in the department. Hmm what obvious emphasis that reflects clearly on their subconscious priorities.
The police have no duty or obligation to "keep us safe". That is a complete farce and deceptive promotional idea. But please don't take my word for it. The courts have repeatedly made that very clear. They are obligated to the state, not us.
They can't require us to hand over ID because there is no law requiring us to have an ID. Except when your driving but that is another misconception that driving is a privilege not a right. It's actually a right to freely travel uninhibited by the normal conveyance means of the time. But has been severely distorted by the legal system to control and make money on us common serfs.
Now back to identifying yourself. For a lil research see some of this: Some definitions first. DETAIN: To retain as the possession of personalty. First Nat. Bank v. Yocom, 96 Or. 438, 189 P. 220, 221. To arrest, to check, to delay, to hinder, to hold, or keep in custody, to retard, to re strain from proceeding, to stay, to stop. People v. Smith, 17 Cal.App.2d 468, 62 P.2d 436, 438. (Blacks Law 4th Ed, Pg 535)
ARREST:To deprive a person of his liberty by legal authority. Taking, under real or assumed authority, custody of another for the purpose of holding or detaining him to answer a criminal charge or civil demand. Ex parte Sherwood, 29 Tex.App. 334, 15 S.W. 812. Physical seizure of person by arresting officer or submission to officer's authority and control is necessary to constitute an "arrest." Thompson v. Boston Pub. Co., 285 Mass. 344, 189 N.E. 210, 213. It is a restraints however slight, on another's liberty to come and go. Turney v. Rhodes, 42 Ga.App. 104, 155 S.E. 112. It is the taking, seizing or detaining the person of another, touching or putting hands upon him in the execution of process, or any act indicating an intention to arrest. U. S. v. Benner, Bald. 234, 239, Fed.Cas.No.14,568; State v. District Court of Eighth Judicial Dist. in and for Cascade County, 70 Mont. 378, 225 P. 1000, 1001; Hoppes v. State, 105 P.2d 433, 439, 70 Okl.Cr. 179.(Blacks Law 4th Ed, Pg 140)
SEIZE: seize,vb.1. To forcibly take possession (of a person or property). 2. To place (someone) in possession. 3. To be in possession (of property).4. To be informed of or aware of (something). See SEISIN; SEIZURE.(Blacks Law 8th Ed, Pg 4237)
SEIZURE: seizure,n. The act or an instance of taking possession of a person or property by legal right or process; esp., in constitutional law, a confiscation or arrest that may interfere with a person's reasonable expectation of privacy. [Cases: Arrest 68(4); Searches and Seizures 13.1. C.J.S. Arrest § 45; Searches and Seizures§§ 8, 13, 20, 23, 70, 72.](Black's Law Dictionary 8th Ed, Page 4238)
RAS(Reasonable Articulated Suspicion, Detentions and Arrests)
This is where the technical hardware portion comes in to the situation. Now if your still with me after all that...What I would have done is made sure to have a recorder running when I first seen the officers. Simple cheap digital recorders are available everywhere and run for 8-10hrs on a single AAA batt. Or there are apps for phones. Android has a good one called CopRecorder 2. It runs discreetly and even with your screen off and locked. There are others available for Apple products but I'm not as familiar. There are also video recorder apps like Bambuser and Qik and more info available through research on like Copblock.org etc. Secondly, don't ever hand over an ID they unless your driving. They use it as a tool to keep you there and control you since they have your property. If you want to verbally state your info. With the video apps instantly uploading the officers can't delete the info off your phone. Also keep a numeric lock on your screen. They have and continue to rummage through electronics looking for or deleting data. Sadly the courts have ruled it permissible. But they can't see or delete what they can't access. So do what you can to limit it. You always have the right to record them cuz they are public servants and have no expectation of privacy in their positions. Search Youtube for all the random vids of videographers getting arrested for recording. They don't want their actions recorded and that is why they are so vehemently fighting it in most cases. The recording is subjective evens the odds and it can't really be disputed very well in court.
You always have the right to not incriminate yourself. It's not rude to keep your mouth shut. It's generally rather smart when it comes to Police. Think about it this way EVERYTHING YOU SAY WILL BE USED AND TWISTED AGAINST YOU!!! Just like in the vid of "Don't talk to Cops" Even if you are innocent they can make it sound like you are guilty simply by your answers. They are trained and experienced in it, are you? So why do you want to say anything. It doesn't mean you can't talk, but be very careful what you do say. Deny and decline statements and requests they make. They are only looking to lock you up. Remember you will have to defend yourself and all your statements and pay the associated costs. They will get a paid vacation and overtime. Innocent people get caught up in and accused of things all the time. They are only looking to get more RAS and Cause to lock you up and throw charges at you. That's why they want to know where you have come from...a party with alcohol, now they can do a field test on you cuz your driving etc. Or that known drug neighborhood etc. They want to know where your going, who is with you etc so they can search and run names in an attempt to charge and lock up as many as they can and add all your info to their databases. Their actions speak louder than their bogus claims they make.
Now you are maybe wondering how I have come to learn all this info. Why is because of the minor incidents I had with law enforcement and the outright lies, dishonesty and corruption I was seeing. I decided to educate myself. So I started researching. Then I was confronted by ignorant officers who decided to defy court precedent, their dept policies and the constitutional rights of people, and demand myself and others I was with give them ID. We all knew better and attempted to tell them they can't demand it like they were. They claimed after a while they were doing a legal and lawful investigation to find out if we were felons. Problem is they didn't have any reason to believe any of us were. Their basis was simply a hunch or curiosity and therefore unlawful and illegal. The order came straight from the LT on duty, down to the Sgt on scene. Long story short. Those obstruction tickets got rescinded almost immediately so then they decided to write Disorderly Conduct tickets. Which also got dropped. There was a Federal civil rights suit filed and they offered a settlement, of course claiming no fault.
I'm not a lawyer and nothing contained here is legal advice but merely common opinion and references and you should seek legal advice in your locality.
The FlexYourRights site was actually where I had pulled all of the info from years ago that I used during this stop; it should be required watching / reading for any resident of the US. -- My PC Gaming Blog »www.unbooted.com
That, isn't a "highway"....by any stretch of the imagination. More like some backwoods, small town bridge.
From the State of Washington Attorney General website:
quote:The term "public highway" as used in the state motor vehicle code (Title 46 RCW) means any place, way, street, etc., where people are accustomed to congregate in automobiles in numbers sufficient to constitute a use by the public.
Other sites from multiple jurisdiction concur.
While in everyday conversation, when we say highway, we generally mean a multi-lane, high speed road, in legal term it means any road.
Your statement is misleading. She was not arrested because she wouldn't provide her name. She was arrested because the refused to stop when directed to do so after she had jaywalked. While handcuffed (arrested), she refused to identify herself (another violation).