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resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to resa1983

Re: Voltage vs Teksavvy decision

The 3 months comments was the difference in time between the alleged infringement, and a reasonable time limit for them to file a copyright suit against the alleged infringer.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

Orbious

join:2009-02-05
reply to resa1983
Seems like this would put a damper on Voltage being able to use shady tactics to get money, but what about other companies that may show up now, that don't currently have a bad rep for copywrite trolling, but plan on doing so. I imagine they'd have to pay costs to get the names as well, but would they be under the same restrictions for sending out the letters as well?

If not, then this would be a pretty big win for the rest of the trolls and only really effect Voltages efforts.


hmm

@videotron.ca
reply to resa1983
Yeah. Which is basically the retention period of some (not all) ISP's.

In other words, what Logan is doing (or was doing) was collecting a years worth of IP's. But was only able to use current 3 months worth.

3 Months is the reasonable limit (as the court stated) when collecting and hoarding info on IP's in order to lauch a mass lawsuit, not a years worth as logan tried to do as he fished for customers (that would be Voltage) to buy into the lawsuit payola scheme (i.e. copyright trolling).

Even then, since this payola scheme of Logan came to light, by his own admission of collecting a year or more worth of data, some ISP's dropped retention to less than 3 months. And as you stated, BMG may have limited it to 3 months worth anyhow, but that was of little consequence here since data that was older than 3 months was just dropped by TSI due to retention.

The 3 months also has no effect on the court order to "preserve data" that the court told the infringing IP's to preserve.

But, not being able to clean up your HD's, or re-format due to a virus or whatever for a whole year seems unreasonable.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
reply to Orbious
said by Orbious:

what about other companies that may show up no

I'd think the courts would be watching for this; its no stretch that spectulative invoice spookies from hollyweird wouldn't just set up half a dozen shell companies and continue on with their trolling Canadian soil for nuggets.

I'm more concerned with the passage of the Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP) because that'd supposedly superceede bill C-11 and no doubt this latest court ruling.

If you think things are bad now; just wait til TPP is reality
--

!- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -!
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = @TwiztedZero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca


nanook
Premium,MVM
join:2007-12-02
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

1 edit
reply to peterboro
said by peterboro:

If Voltage sends out 2,000 extortion letters they may get enough people to settle to cover the 200k.

They'd need a very high conviction rate and a very high average award in order to break even, let alone make a profit. And that doesn't include the costs they've already incurred just to get to the current judgement that sets out the terms and conditions under which they can proceed against individuals.

As the maximum damages are 5,000

I'd be surprised if a judge would award the maximum $5k to a first time "offender." Probably more like $100 to $1,000, especially if the judge believes that the individual downloaded for private viewing rather than to distribute. If Voltage could prove that the individual uploaded the movie and was the first seeder, then yes they could expect to get $5,000. But how do they prove that from an IP address?

then individuals should move for a venue change to small claims

I'm not sure you can do that but even if you could why would Voltage agree to it? ISTM the legal costs payable by an individual in order to defend themselves in a regular court would be a large enough threat to convince some people to settle out of court. With SC court individuals can defend themselves so all they have at risk is probably $100 to $1,000.


hmm

@videotron.ca
said by nanook:

1.
I'd be surprised if a judge would award the maximum $5k to a first time "offender." Probably more like $100 to $1,000, especially if the judge believes that the individual downloaded for private viewing rather than to distribute. If Voltage could prove that the individual uploaded the movie and was the first seeder, then yes they could expect to get $5,000. But how do they prove that from an IP address?

2. I'm not sure you can do that but even if you could why would Voltage agree to it? ISTM the legal costs payable by an individual in order to defend themselves in a regular court would be a large enough threat to convince some people to settle out of court. With SC court individuals can defend themselves so all they have at risk is probably $100 to $1,000.

1. No distribution in this case. They tried in their filing, but dropped it when TSI's lawyer pointed the judge to it. Also, distribution starts somewhere around $20K, not $5K. It's separate in the new copyright act.

So in a nutshell, there is *NO* distribution here, and Voltage confirmed it to the court.

I wouldn't be surprised if a judge orders 5K (if they go forward). They need to take into consideration what it costs and took voltage to get thus far, no? Also they should be able to break even at less than 150$ +/-

2. Yeah I was reading up on this, seems it is possible. Voltage doesn't "have" to agree to it. I think the court or some case management thing decides.

But this is moot. This current ruling states there is already some sort of special case management thing, and it's mandatory. So it's not going to small claims.


Spike
Premium
join:2008-05-16
Toronto, ON
reply to hmm
said by hmm :

Hmm but offending IP's were under court order to preserve all HD content of all computers, I do believe. Were they not?

So if one or some of the IP's deleted content from their HD's this will go against them.

Did the ruling make reference to forensics analysis of HD's? This is something the offending IP would have to pay, if they lost, and if forensics is ever performed.

Many people have more than 1 computer these days, so if they were guilty, I am sure that specific computer would had 'disappeared' by now. They have a long way to magically prove that it was them and not a room mate or someone else sharing their Internet connection, visitors, etc.

Most people also delete crap they download after watching it, which given the timeframe, I doubt even forensics would be useful, given multiple devices, etc. Merely having a torrent client installed wont be enough to call someone guilty.

EDIT: A year is completely unreasonable like you stated. To comply to their terms you would have had to stop using that computer and mothball it. Especially with the amount of malware, etc, these days.


hmm

@videotron.ca
yeah, which would take a lawyer to argue for the average person. Unless CIPPIC, or other, drafts something up for the masses to use like what was done in the states a few years back.

Lawyer fee's alone are enough to scare anyone. So while the troll letter will be controlled to limit fear-mongering, it does state to seek legal advice. Some people may just pay 100-500$ or so just to tell voltage to f*ck off out of their lives while actually being innocent.

I don't know if I would spend a cent on legal fee's if a couple of hundred was enough to tell them to go away.

a grand for a low rate lawyer right out of school versus being extorted for 200$. Know what I mean jellybean?

philip83

join:2013-09-25
reply to resa1983
People are putting way ahead of themselves when it comes to those cases. Mostly believing the troll is somehow really affected by the act of piracy or their point is fair. What those trolls want is easy money and only money. They do not want to sue anybody really. Sometimes they file a lawsuit in court just to withdraw at a later date. Its all part of their game.

My take on this is, the judge allowed them to have the subscriber information but not to use any of their well known troll tactics to extort money which is great news for people but also we have to see how creative Voltage can go with their demands


humanfilth

join:2013-02-14
cyber gutter

2 edits
reply to TwiztedZero
said by TwiztedZero:

I'm more concerned with the passage of the Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP) because that'd supposedly superceede bill C-11 and no doubt this latest court ruling.
If you think things are bad now; just wait til TPP is reality

Yea, when Harper signs it, might as well replace all Canadian flags with the U.S.A. flags.
When Canada loses Sovereignty under the TPP and Canadian laws get replaced with U.S.A. laws, with his personal baby of having U.S police officers illegally working in Canada(also immune from prosecution for their crimes), that is a massive crime against the people, that needs hard punishment of the politicians involved.

With this copyright troll, we have the standard thing of an IP address does not equal a person and Troll seeing the IP on a swarm does not equal 'must of downloaded a complete content' to be convicted of infringement.
Worse is the copyright trolls who set up honey pots to collect IP's of anyone downloading it. But as usual, since they put the content online in downloadable form, hey it is free and legal with that permission.

Hey Trolls.... Go after the uploaders and only after you have downloaded the entire file from that one IP address and made sure it is a 100% exact copy. But thats to hard, isn't it...
--
When peasants own the government, there is freedom. When the government owns the peasants, there is tyranny
Knowledge and curiosity are not crimes and those who are curious should not be treated like criminals.. »www.eff.org/https-everywhere


hmm

@videotron.ca
reply to philip83
said by philip83:

My take on this is, the judge allowed them to have the subscriber information but not to use any of their well known troll tactics to extort money which is great news for people but also we have to see how creative Voltage can go with their demands

yes, part of the payola scheme is not to even touch court since it costs too much. This was what the judge stated last year (something along those lines). They have to be ready to actually bring people to court if they are going to use the Canadian court system in such a manner.

So really what the court is doing is calling out the bluff of a troll saying you better damn well sue each person if that's what you originally filed for. None of these scare-tactic fear letters to extort people.

Geist states:
it calls into question whether copyright trolling litigation is economically viable in Canada.

Let's assume 2,000 people (it was actually less I believe)
Let's assume Voltage has to pay $200,000 to get the names (the going rate of 100$/IP, Ball park)
Let's assume Logan gets 30% of any money as the middle man
Let's assume the bay-street lawyer cost $20k (I have no clue what that lawyer cost)
Let's assume they toss some junior fresh out of law school kid at the "special managed case" against each individual. Put it at 100$ per TSI individual he fights against.

What do the numbers work out to be that they need to get on each individual just to break even?

$520,000.00???
(seems inflated, but that's what I get)

That means they only need to extort 260$ per IP to break even, and for Logan to walk away with $100+grand.

Is Geist right?

I think Geist is wrong. But the trolls aren't getting a free ride to abuse the court system

The other question:
Would you pay 260$ in extortion fee's to make them go away, guilty or innocent?
Or would you pay 1000$ (absolute minimum) for a fresh out of school lawyer, guilty or innocent?

Ree

join:2007-04-29
h0h0h0
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
said by hmm :

The other question:
Would you pay 260$ in extortion fee's to make them go away, guilty or innocent?

If guilty, do you even need a lawyer? Can't you just walk in on your court date, admit your guilt, and hope your penalty is closer to the $100 end than the $5000 end?

philip83

join:2013-09-25
reply to hmm
said by hmm :

Would you pay 260$ in extortion fee's to make them go away, guilty or innocent?

I do not suggest to anyone to pay anything just because somebody decided to use scare tactics to get money out of you. Its very popular these days to extort money from people, Getty Images, Masterfile are big companies and they resort to such tactics to make more money. This is not just morally wrong, it should be outlawed. You just do not give money to any stranger that knocks on your door demanding money for whatever reasons.

They only see you as walking dollar signs and nothing more. Think of what people think of North Americans when they go abroad for tourism. Same idea really


hmm

@videotron.ca
reply to Ree
said by Ree:

If guilty, do you even need a lawyer? Can't you just walk in on your court date, admit your guilt, and hope your penalty is closer to the $100 end than the $5000 end?

That is option #3. Walk in and hope for the best. Roll the dice, take a gamble that the court fine is less than 260$ (and hope there are no costs added on to that).

Option #4, take a gamble say it wasn't you, maybe a kid did it, open wifi, whatever the excuse is. Another gamble, no?

said by philip83:

I do not suggest to anyone to pay anything just because somebody decided to use scare tactics to get money out of you.

Easy to say, but the sad reality is that it may affect whether a person will make their mortgage payment that month.

philip83

join:2013-09-25
reply to resa1983
I suggest not to get carried away and start doing imaginary court battles here, what a person would say what Voltage will respond etc.

I speak from my personal experience, I have dealt with a copyright troll before. Not for piracy or anything like that. They want your money and they won't ask for anything like $260. In Voltage's case I am willing to believe they would ask for a couple of thousand dollars if they are allowed. I believe the judge put safeguards against this kind of action but we will see. I think Voltage will try to be creative to get something out of this but I am not sure if they would be allowed to without going to court something they do not want. Why I am so sure they do not want to go to court you might ask? Simple, because if they lose one of those cases the whole scheme of extorting money will end instantly and not only for them but for all wiseguys around betting on such tactics.


trolls_f_off

@torexit.info
reply to hmm
said by hmm :

That means they only need to extort 260$ per IP to break even, and for Logan to walk away with $100+grand.

It's a taxable income so... these f....rs need more beans in their basket...

JMJimmy

join:2008-07-23
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to hmm
said by hmm :

Hmm but offending IP's were under court order to preserve all HD content of all computers, I do believe. Were they not?

So if one or some of the IP's deleted content from their HD's this will go against them.

Did the ruling make reference to forensics analysis of HD's? This is something the offending IP would have to pay, if they lost, and if forensics is ever performed.

I'm not sure about forensics but without it how do you prove deletion vs not me/my device?

I have to say, I am disappointed but not shocked. This is a huge blow to open networks/free wifi spots/guest wireless.

JMJimmy

join:2008-07-23
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to hmm
said by hmm :

said by philip83:

My take on this is, the judge allowed them to have the subscriber information but not to use any of their well known troll tactics to extort money which is great news for people but also we have to see how creative Voltage can go with their demands

Geist states:
it calls into question whether copyright trolling litigation is economically viable in Canada.

Let's assume 2,000 people (it was actually less I believe)
Let's assume Voltage has to pay $200,000 to get the names (the going rate of 100$/IP, Ball park)
Let's assume Logan gets 30% of any money as the middle man
Let's assume the bay-street lawyer cost $20k (I have no clue what that lawyer cost)
Let's assume they toss some junior fresh out of law school kid at the "special managed case" against each individual. Put it at 100$ per TSI individual he fights against.

- Closer to 1,100 people for the final count I believe
- Logan would not get a percentage - he'll likely get a flat fee per IP regardless of settlement. Otherwise the defense really does have a case that he's financially motivated to get the maximum possible award.
- Bay street lawyers will start with a 5k-10k retainer generally and they will get a % or $1,000+ per hour up front.
- junior lawyer? Not if I have anything to say about it. Also, this case is too prime for Canadian law - an up and coming lawyer can make a career out of this case.

The other thing is that do these costs mean anything to Voltage? Costs are generally paid by the loser in Canada so that $100 minimum could easily balloon.

Rastan

join:2007-04-25
Canada
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·voip.ms
reply to hmm
Their lawyer fees will be significantly higher if they decide to take 100+ people to court. Voltage will only go that far if they're sure that the person is guilty. If they receive a response back from someone who admits to being guilty of copyright infringement but refuses to pay, they might take him to court to get an easy win. They will use this verdict to scare other people into paying their fine. However, if they don't feel their case is air tight, they will just pursue other targets.

Although I think the judge's decision is fairly reasonable, if they allow Voltage to send letters asking for a payment of up to $5000 then they'll find a way to make this scheme profitable even with all of the fees they'll have to pay to Teksavvy. In addition to this, other ISP's might see this as a way to generate more income as well. Why should they oppose copyright trolls and protect our privacy when they can charge $200-300K and give our information away to any copyright troll who's willing to pay?


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to peterboro
Peteboro, that's the beauty of the ruling, they can;'t send out extortion letters, which will make it much more difficult to make any money on the deal
--
My Name is Wiley E Coyote, Super Genius


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to TwiztedZero
The Repuglicans in the US are slowing it down, they're interested in kneecapping Obama.
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My Name is Wiley E Coyote, Super Genius


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to humanfilth
That's the issue with P2P, you are always uploading.
--
My Name is Wiley E Coyote, Super Genius


trills_f_off

@afo-tm.org
reply to JMJimmy
said by JMJimmy:

The other thing is that do these costs mean anything to Voltage? Costs are generally paid by the loser in Canada so that $100 minimum could easily balloon.

That is in case trolls are willing to pay TSI expenses up front. Their bean counters are hard at work and vulture's head office has to approve the number before anything happens.


humanfilth

join:2013-02-14
cyber gutter
reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

That's the issue with P2P, you are always uploading.

I remember back a few years when people thought they were only downloading. Turns out their program hooked in to their 'shared folder', people took a look, and uploaded whatever was available, including peoples tax files.

People download programs without a clue on settings and get bit in the ass.
--
When peasants own the government, there is freedom. When the government owns the peasants, there is tyranny
Knowledge and curiosity are not crimes and those who are curious should not be treated like criminals.. »www.eff.org/https-everywhere


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28

1 recommendation

reply to resa1983
Press release: »Voltage vs. Doe decision - TekSavvy press release
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Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

JMJimmy

join:2008-07-23
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
What is the final count on the number of people TSI linked?


Rich

@108.181.159.x
reply to resa1983
People are not mentioning that if you take your case to court and you win, you will usually get awarded court & legal fees to be paid by the losing side. So fighting this case might cost you nothing but cost Voltage more $$$.


trolls_f_off

@torservers.net
reply to humanfilth
said by humanfilth:

People download programs without a clue on settings and get bit in the ass.

There are uTorrent mods that do not upload any content (i.e. 2.0.4).


hmm

@videotron.ca
reply to trills_f_off
said by trills_f_off :

said by JMJimmy:

The other thing is that do these costs mean anything to Voltage? Costs are generally paid by the loser in Canada so that $100 minimum could easily balloon.

That is in case trolls are willing to pay TSI expenses up front. Their bean counters are hard at work and vulture's head office has to approve the number before anything happens.

Well that's it, the bean counters are at work now to see how advantageous it will be to continue, if it is.

That half a million dollars might even be low-balled when I think more about it. As, JMJimmy, stated, it's was 1,100 people.

So lets just put it at 1-million dollars to move forward and the minimum and 910$/per person required to break even (+/-).

To defend yourself, it will still take more than 910$ for a lawyer.

But anyhow, as Marc states, they require 200K up front before even going forward at this point in time.

In regards to Resa's mention of 3 months, this may now kick in (not sure someone could clarify this maybe). If TSI doesn't get anything in 3 months, then I would assume they ran away with their tail between their legs.

Marc, do you know if there is a time frame for you to get paid before you dump the list of people in the shredder? How long are you supposed to retain this info?

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
The 3 months is roughly from collecting bittorrent log, to suing. Teksavvy has to keep all records until the case is closed I do believe.
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Battle.net Tech Support MVP