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BlueC
join:2009-11-26
Minneapolis, MN

BlueC to jlivingood

Member

to jlivingood

Re: VPN | no-VPN = same broadband provider

Except ISPs have the option to simply peer with Netflix, you're not forced to provide collocation to them. I get the argument for not wanting to provide power and space for free, however that's not the sole solution. Peering is completely doable.

What cost is that to ISPs? Additional 10G ports?

Ah but that's right, there's the whole settlement-free dispute. It's a lot more profitable to have the traffic come in through carriers that pay you for the capacity. It's a business decision after all.

weaseled386
join:2008-04-13
Edgewater, FL

1 recommendation

weaseled386

Member

said by BlueC:

What cost is that to ISPs? Additional 10G ports?

I can't tell if you're serious. Do you think 10G ports are FREE? Why should ISP's foot the bill to help Netflix succeed?

SimbaSeven
I Void Warranties
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT
·StarLink

SimbaSeven

Member

said by weaseled386:

I can't tell if you're serious. Do you think 10G ports are FREE? Why should ISP's foot the bill to help Netflix succeed?

So, if I was a large business and I wanted to pay for a 10GigE link to my NOC, it's too damn bad?

The same could be said when most providers were running FastE ports. Why should the ISP's foot the bill for GigE links?

RadioDoc

join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL

RadioDoc to weaseled386

to weaseled386
said by weaseled386:

Why should ISP's foot the bill to help Netflix succeed?

Because content providers like Netflix create demand for pricey bandwidth packages at the consumer end, which are ridiculously marked up at retail.

connections
@pppoe.ca

connections to weaseled386

Anon

to weaseled386
said by weaseled386:

said by BlueC:

What cost is that to ISPs? Additional 10G ports?

I can't tell if you're serious. Do you think 10G ports are FREE? Why should ISP's foot the bill to help Netflix succeed?

Is this supposed to be a joke? Those paying customers that have payed to reach the Internet? not some arbitrary selection of what the ISP deems is Ok. Netflix doesn't just shove random traffic down random networks. Customers of the ISPs have requested this traffic and are paying to receive this traffic. It's amazing that people seem to have such a hard time grasping such a simple concept.

notsimple
@ioflood.com

notsimple

Anon

Is this supposed to be a joke? Those paying customers that have payed to reach the Internet? not some arbitrary selection of what the ISP deems is Ok. Netflix doesn't just shove random traffic down random networks. Customers of the ISPs have requested this traffic and are paying to receive this traffic. It's amazing that people seem to have such a hard time grasping such a simple concept.

This "requester argument" has been used successfully as "red herring" (by Netflix lobbyists) and repeated by those that don't really understand how the Internet works.

Netflix has always paid for transit to deliver their service. Their customers pay them a monthly fee to deliver it with the quality they expect. Netflix saying that people are already paying for Netflix transit in their ISP fee is quite false.

It is not the ISPs responsiblity to pay or subsidize the Netflix's transit costs because "their customers are requesting this traffic"

Netflix cheaping out on transit is what is impacting their customers.

connections
@pppoe.ca

-1 recommendation

connections

Anon

said by notsimple :

This "requester argument" has been used successfully as "red herring" (by Netflix lobbyists) and repeated by those that don't really understand how the Internet works.

Netflix has always paid for transit to deliver their service. Their customers pay them a monthly fee to deliver it with the quality they expect. Netflix saying that people are already paying for Netflix transit in their ISP fee is quite false.

It is not the ISPs responsiblity to pay or subsidize the Netflix's transit costs because "their customers are requesting this traffic"

Netflix cheaping out on transit is what is impacting their customers.

What?! This post doesn't even make any sense. It makes it pretty clear YOU do not know what you're talking about. No one has said anything about Verizon customers paying for Netflix transit. Verizon customers are paying to reach Netflix. This is a pretty simple concept that OBVIOUSLY is too difficult to understand. No, Verizon and the other ISPs wanting to double dip is what is impacting their customers.

notsimple
@ioflood.com

1 recommendation

notsimple

Anon

What?! This post doesn't even make any sense. It makes it pretty clear YOU do not know what you're talking about. No one has said anything about Verizon customers paying for Netflix transit. Verizon customers are paying to reach Netflix. This is a pretty simple concept that OBVIOUSLY is too difficult to understand. No, Verizon and the other ISPs wanting to double dip is what is impacting their customers.

Netflix requirements for peering (aka joining OpenConnect) is a form of them expecting not to have to pay for transit to deliver their service. This is not "double dipping". Netflix can pick any transit provider they want similar to anyone else. Just make good choices for your customers.

The problem is they are picking ones which cannot deliver with quality and then blaming the ISPs for the problems. This is "bad transit" decision is meant as a forcing function around Netflix's demand for peering (aka joining OpenConnect)

SimbaSeven
I Void Warranties
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT
·StarLink

SimbaSeven to notsimple

Member

to notsimple
said by notsimple :

This "requester argument" has been used successfully as "red herring" (by Netflix lobbyists) and repeated by those that don't really understand how the Internet works.

Obviously, you don't know how the internet works, either.
said by notsimple :

Netflix has always paid for transit to deliver their service. Their customers pay them a monthly fee to deliver it with the quality they expect. Netflix saying that people are already paying for Netflix transit in their ISP fee is quite false.

It is not the ISPs responsiblity to pay or subsidize the Netflix's transit costs because "their customers are requesting this traffic"

Netflix cheaping out on transit is what is impacting their customers.

Why are you blaming Netflix? How about blaming Microsoft as well for their system updates and Xbox Live service. What about Sony for the PlayStation Network? How about blaming every streaming provider on the Internet?

This is specialized discrimination that Net Neutrality was to defend against. Now that it's gone, the ISP's and transit providers can do whatever they want. Unfortunately, they have Netflix in their crosshairs for some idiotic reason.

So, a company buys an OC48 connection to the internet with unlimited traffic. How the heck is that "cheaping out on transit"? If I buy an OC48, it'd better be able to handle 2488.32Mbit/sec 24x7x365. If not, why am I paying for it again?

RadioDoc

join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL

RadioDoc

said by SimbaSeven:

This is specialized discrimination that Net Neutrality was to defend against. Now that it's gone, the ISP's and transit providers can do whatever they want.

That argument might have some validity if net neutrality was ever actually "here". Or more practically, the assumption that every ISP has rushed to choke streaming providers after the court ruled in Verizon's favor knowing full well that they would have such action shoved right back down their throats in short order is ludicrous.

notsimple
@ioflood.com

notsimple to SimbaSeven

Anon

to SimbaSeven

Why are you blaming Netflix? How about blaming Microsoft as well for their system updates and Xbox Live service. What about Sony for the PlayStation Network? How about blaming every streaming provider on the Internet?

Because they are not degrading their traffic to get special favors. This is why their service (and many others) work well, but Netflix is, for the most part, singularly problematic for users. This is Netflix making bad choices and blaming ISPs.