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SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
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not Sweden
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[Plumbing] Low lead vs no lead in residential plumbing

I posted this in another thread, but it is a little buried and I think it's worth discussing in its own post.

I am considering installing a CSV1W valve in my residential well water system. The specs for the valve say it is "low lead bronze body construction".

»www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_csv···ecs.html

The valve is sold for residential home use even with the low lead label. What is the rule with lead in modern plumbing systems. Is there a maximum threshold that can't be crossed in a system? I am concerned for obvious reasons, but find it odd that is is sold for its primary purpose if it would be against code to use it, especially in a home with children.

What is the story with lead (low or otherwise) in plumbing?


dandelion
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Per EPA »water.epa.gov/drink/info/lead/lead1.cfm

»www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jan2011···091.html this is 2010, but you might want to look at how old the pipes sold are and see if they comply now.


SwedishRider
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Thanks for the links. I did read those. I guess I am questioning how that could legally be sold at this point if it didn't meet code. There is a CSV1A that is stainless, but requires more fiddling to install. Probably should go that route anyway.


ArgMeMatey

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reply to SwedishRider
Threads I have seen in other places have remarks about the small area of the device that is in contact with water. When you consider the amount of lead that could leach from that small area, given the already small amount in the casting to begin with, most commenters seem to think it's a mandate that is out of whack in terms of cost-benefit.

The manufacturing guidelines seem to be set by the EPA, but individual jurisdictions (state, county, municipal) determine what devices will be code-approved.

Regarding the sale of devices, it is not a code violation to sell something that does not meet code. It is the responsibility of the buyer to figure out what's suitable for their need. For example when Romex was not permitted here, one could buy Romex at just about any hardware or big box store. Lead solder can be bought as well, it just can't be used in a plumbing system that requires code compliance.

Have you checked the codes in not Sweden to see what they say?
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mackey
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reply to dandelion
said by »water.epa.gov/drink/info/lead/lead1.cfm :

Pipes and fittings will be considered "lead-free" when they contain not more than 8.0 percent lead.

A pipe that's 8% lead is lead-free huh. That seems awfully high to me.

/M


SwedishRider
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reply to ArgMeMatey
No I haven't checked local codes. It's a shame they don't just make it out of stainless and avoid the issue altogether.


Tex
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reply to SwedishRider
Are there no NSF certified cycle stop valves that would suit your needs?


SwedishRider
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Yes, the CSV1A.

»www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_csv···ecs.html

It just seems to require more fiddling than the CSV1W that is preset to 50 psi.


Tex
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Yeah, I see where you mentioned that valve. I think, to answer your question about the valves meeting code, is not all well pumps are used for potable water.


SwedishRider
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I agree to a point, but that valve is recommended for residential well use. Very odd they would recommend something with lead in it.


Tex
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I couldn't find anything in the link you provided about residential (potable) water use.

garys_2k
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reply to SwedishRider
Sorry, I missed this thread.

Like I said, I'd get this version ONLY for irrigation water and ONLY if it was significantly less expensive than the "A" (NSF rated) version. Maybe dedicated hookup to an in-ground lawn sprinkler system with no hose bibs.

Stainless would be nice, but not sure how much it would cost in that version.

iknow_t

join:2012-05-03
reply to SwedishRider
depending on the age of your house, you probably have a lot of joints soldered with lead solder anyway. and then there's the brass valves too..


UHF
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reply to SwedishRider
It appears to me that valve is not legal for sale or use in the USA after January 4, 2014 if it contains more than .2% lead.


UHF
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reply to SwedishRider

robbin
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reply to UHF
said by UHF:

It appears to me that valve is not legal for sale or use in the USA after January 4, 2014

There are many plumbing products which are for sale that do not meet drinking water standards. I'm pretty sure they are still legal for sale, just not legal for sale for drinking (potable) water systems. It is still legal for use in previously installed potable systems.


Anonymous_
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reply to SwedishRider
said by SwedishRider:

I agree to a point, but that valve is recommended for residential well use. Very odd they would recommend something with lead in it.

You need your daily intake of heavy metals & minerals
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GadgetsRme
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reply to robbin

said by robbin See Profile
It is still legal for use in previously installed potable systems.

This is incorrect. If an item containing a level of lead higher than is allowed under the new standard can be repaired in place it can remain in an existing potable system. If it is taken out for any reason, it can not be reinstalled and must be replaced with an item that meets the current standard for lead.
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robbin
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Leander, TX
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said by GadgetsRme:

said by robbin See Profile
It is still legal for use in previously installed potable systems.

This is incorrect. If an item containing a level of lead higher than is allowed under the new standard can be repaired in place it can remain in an existing potable system. If it is taken out for any reason, it can not be reinstalled and must be replaced with an item that meets the current standard for lead.

Yes, so if it is previously installed, then it is legal to use.

said by UHF:

It appears to me that valve is not legal for sale or use in the USA after January 4, 2014 if it contains more than .2% lead.

Still safe for use, just can't install a new one or repair the existing. Of course, enforcement appears to be state by state so who knows what is legal in any specific location.


UHF
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said by robbin:

said by GadgetsRme:

said by robbin See Profile
It is still legal for use in previously installed potable systems.

This is incorrect. If an item containing a level of lead higher than is allowed under the new standard can be repaired in place it can remain in an existing potable system. If it is taken out for any reason, it can not be reinstalled and must be replaced with an item that meets the current standard for lead.

Yes, so if it is previously installed, then it is legal to use.

said by UHF:

It appears to me that valve is not legal for sale or use in the USA after January 4, 2014 if it contains more than .2% lead.

Still safe for use, just can't install a new one or repair the existing. Of course, enforcement appears to be state by state so who knows what is legal in any specific location.

You took that a little too literally. It is illegal to place it into use. Is that better?

Retailers were required to remove all old stock that contained lead by Jan 4, 2014.

robbin
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Thanks, but once again, it is still legal to sell just not for potable water. If I'm wrong on that, please correct me.

said by UHF:

Retailers were required to remove all old stock that contained lead



GadgetsRme
RIP lilhurricane
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reply to robbin
If an item is taken out of a system for any reason it MUST be replaced with a standards compliant item. If not, it is in violation of the of the standards.

_____ _ ______
CWP, OIC (Certified Water Professional, Operator in Charge)
Town of _________
Water Enterprise

I took my latest certification test less than on year ago.
--
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robbin
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Leander, TX
kudos:1
Did I say different? I stated that it is not illegal for the device to be in use for potable water. I also stated that there is nothing requiring "all" plumbing fittings to be certified for potable water. It is not "illegal" to be in use.


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT

2 recommendations

reply to SwedishRider
It's all BS.
The amount of lead from plumbing that gets dissolved is orders of magnitude smaller than the natural lead content of the water.


GadgetsRme
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Canon City, CO
reply to robbin
To the uninformed reader your initial post, referring to the item in question from previous post, could taken to mean that a non standards compliant item could be used because it is a system installed before the new standards. Since this is an advice forum for those who know to help those who don't, it is important to be very clear. That's all I'm after.
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UHF
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reply to robbin
I've seen the letter a local retailer received saying that the EPA was requiring them to remove all the old stock. Now, since this was a home center, it's can safely be assumed that it is potable water. Shower heads, bath faucets, etc, all being thrown in the trash for not being compliant. Sure, I suppose they could be used somewhere legally, but why in world would a retailer leave it on the shelf and risk the wrath of the EPA??


SparkChaser
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reply to mackey
said by mackey:

A pipe that's 8% lead is lead-free huh. That seems awfully high to me.

/M

Reduction of Lead in Drinking Water Act of 2011

Amends SDWA Section 1417 – Prohibition on Use and Introduction into Commerce of Lead Pipes, Solder and Flux

Modifies the applicability of the prohibitions by creating exemptions

Changes the definition of “lead-free” by reducing lead content from 8% to a weighted average of not more than 0.25% in the wetted surface material (primarily affects brass/bronze)

Eliminated provision that required certain products to comply with “voluntary” standards for lead leaching

Establishes statutory requirement for calculating lead content

Effective 36 months from signature – January 4, 2014

»water.epa.gov/drink/info/lead/ in PDF presentation
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Jack_in_VA
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reply to UHF
The minute amount of lead is of no consequence. We've been using these devices, drinking water that has come through pipes soldered with solder containing lead for years and years and we are still alive. In today's nanny state headed by the EPA I am not in the least inclined to tear out my copper piping installed in 1954 for the most part.

And....as been pointed out in a previous post the amount of lead leeching out is less than the natural lead content of the water.


mackey
Premium
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reply to UHF
said by UHF:

Shower heads, bath faucets, etc, all being thrown in the trash for not being compliant.

The funny thing is that these new rules don't apply to bath/shower faucets.

/M


Thespis
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
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join:2004-08-03
Keller, TX
reply to UHF
said by UHF:

Shower heads, bath faucets, etc, all being thrown in the trash for not being compliant.

Seems a bit counter productive. Keep the lead out of the plumbing, but let it leach into the ground water. Good idea...
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